More than 100 Arizona Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and progressive Democrats and community leaders have signed a letter making the case for those reluctant to support Kamala Harris against Donald Trump.
“We know that many in our communities are resistant to vote for Kamala Harris because of the Biden administration’s complicity in the genocide,” the letter, published Thursday night, reads.
“Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon. We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones,” the letter continued. “As we consider the full situation carefully, however, we conclude that voting for Kamala Harris is the best option for the Palestinian cause and all of our communities.”
Brutal. You have to support the one who kills half of your children because the other one will kill all of them.
Lol no i dont. Id be going after both of them.
You’d vote for both of them? That wouldn’t work out well in your favor, they’d just throw the ballot out.
no, I’d ‘go after’ them. not vote, not support, actively fight against. as i am doing now.
you: ‘Excuse me dear these two murders are running for office, I have to let one of them murder our children’ jfc you poor soul.
Tell me you don’t understand the concept of harm reduction without telling me you don’t understand the concept of harm reduction.
yawn tired trope. there are other levers to pull for reducing essentially every other harm. its clear you dont understand how to effectively leverage your vote to reduce harm and are supportive of a genocide. congrats i guess?
Let me know when you’re no longer a willing participant in a genocide and then we can talk about harm reduction.
You need to look at game theory.
The only two candidates that matter if Harris and Trump, and you’ll realize that the only candidate that makes sense to vote for is Harris
oh god another game theory twat. lord please spare me another childish lecture. 😮💨
- you’re assuming my goal is influence who wins. (its not)
- you’re assuming the only outcome in play is who wins. (its not)
- yes I’ve studied game theory and that professor was a dunce too.
You don’t even know the game. Which you may wish to know is an important aspect of game theory. so spare me the trivialities of your intellect.
I’m as much a willing participant in the genocide as anyone else who intends to vote, unfortunately in the USA right now we are the way we are.
I can vote for the party that has people willing to address the elephant in the room, literally anything else is being a more willing participant.
Anyways, get fucked.
Anyways, get fucked
Daily. 🤗 Dont worry harris will still win here. But maybe adding my vote to the pile here has convinced my local reps to consider withholding israel support in the future . Hopefully you can do the same.
But its likely you’re Happy harris is bombing innocents.
How would you leverage your vote in this instance?
You: “I don’t like these two candidates so I’m going to do everything I can to ensure the worst one wins!”
I’m going to ensure people know they are other options than voting for genocide. if harris loses to fucking trump as a result, that’s her fault not mine. learn to place blame were it properly belongs: On the person committed to a genocide. I didnt force her down this path. I didnt force you down this path. You and her choose it willingly.
Let me know when you’re willing to stop supporting a genocide and then we can talk.
I’m going to ensure people know they are other options
I haven’t heard of any viable option, so you’ve failed. The only way to accomplish what you want to accomplish, what we all want to accomplish, is to elect enough local politicians that support massive electoral overhaul to disrupt the two party system. FPtP and winner-take-all must go, but we’re never gonna get there by throwing our votes away to unviable third parties. In the meantime, we do the best with what we have and we let logic rule our decisions, not emotion. Try it!
Viable isnt the goal. The goal is to withholding support for genocidal candidate keep up.
You can absolutely do that by supporting 3rd party candidates.
- If you live in a 💜 state lie to your candidates and exit polls, say you do not support harris support instead and cite genocide for the reason. But shes likely your best bet so no hurt feelings either way you vote. But remember its Harris’ responsibility to earn your vote through policies and positions. She doesnt have many this year besides not being a fascist and that sadly probably enough in those states honestly. To the Arab community her treatment of your community has been horrible and disgusting and I’m sorry I’ll continue fighting for your family as i can.
- If you live in a 💙 state, and most of us do, there are 16, consider with holding your vote for harris. Let your critters know what you’re doing and why.
- If you live in a💩state im sorry 😔. I have no advice for you except be as active as you can local elections.
Hey it’s cool you can just say you support Trump, no need for the extra steps.
Hey its cool you support genocides! no need for the extra steps.
Do Muslim’s really think voting for Muslim ban guy who would give Israel even more weapons a better choice?
No but Russian troll farm employees sure want us to believe it.
Oh good, this must be a safe community. [email protected] banned me for having the audacity to suggest the russian trolls might be fewer in number than the number of their accounts would suggest.
Yeah, their admin is working for russia.
I just got banned from [email protected] for 2 months because I said I wasn’t comfortable installing an Android app with a Russian developer. The audacity!
A poll released Monday conducted by Arab News/YouGov found that Trump led Harris 45 percent to 43 percent among Arab Americans. Those voters said that they viewed Trump as more supportive of Israel’s current government, but that he was more likely to end the conflict.
In 2020, FL Hispanics were bombarded with ads saying that Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism or deport them all to Cuba. Trump won FL by a large margin, mostly because Miami area was not as blue as in the past. 60% of FL voters still voted for $15 minimum wage.
In 2020, also, heavily hispanic southern counties of TX went pro Trump on ads that there would be a lot of work in the counties from building walls.
AIPAC lobby has spent record amounts on primaries for democrats this year where the incumbent supported a ceasefire. The only ones AIPAC won were ones where they did not mention Israel at all. Other Republican PACs are blanketing Arab zip codes with how pro Israel Harris is, and Jewish zip codes with how she is a muslim plant.
While Trump very proudly has RFK boast of his desire to end the most stupid war the US has ever conducted, Trump is favoured by Netanyahu, including reported daily strategy calls on how to sabotage Biden’s fake constraints policies. He is more likely to believe any benefits Netanyahu tells him of a full war on Iran/Lebanon/Syria over any prudence.
Trump’s main claim for 2020 election “rigging” is that a Hunter Biden laptop existed, without anything implicating President on it. But republican rigging of misinformation, and vote suppression, just wasn’t enough even though that nothing story was still all over the news.
There are serious problems with US electoral system, and it is orders of magnitude worse every cycle.
In 2020, FL Hispanics were bombarded with ads saying that Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism or deport them all to Cuba. Trump won FL by a large margin, mostly because Miami area was not as blue as in the past. 60% of FL voters still voted for $15 minimum wage.
JFC people are fucking stupid
Biden would give away Florida to Castro as part of his love for communism
I love how utterly deranged republican shit is in the US, and seemingly there are people so braindamaged they take it serious. 😂 Really goes to show how much worse things could be in many countries. At leasy they’re not the US, basically.
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Many just want to stay home, but in contested districts their absence may mean something.
No, but virtue signaling white folks will be happy to tell you that, rather than “voting for genocide”, it’s better to vote 3rd party or not at all… thereby electing Trump.
It’s a principled nut punch to every Muslim, themselves, and all the rest of us. So brave.
Look, another group democrats hate. I’m sure if you hate them enough it’ll go full circle.
Maybe its not so much third party voters as it is the vast majority of americans are intolerant selfish people.
Or maybe people who don’t live under the American 2 party system DONT UNDERSTAND HALF A FUCK of what’s going on in our elections and should shut the FUCK up and eat a whole potato instead.
Respectfully.
Edit: But it couldn’t be that, otherwise why in the everloving butthole would you still be talking out of your poop shooter?
Love your energy!
BOOM! Alcohol!
Many are extremely conservative, and just want a tax cut.
The tax cut that Turnip would only give to the 1%?
Lot are well off, and the rest think they’ll get it anyway.
Remember, the Trump tax cuts were popular-ish even when most people got like $100/yr.
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Try explaining this to .ml
Comment removed.
Reason: Rule 1 (western propaganda)Touché
BUT AMERICA IS THE TRUE EVIL, RUSSIA REALLY IS THE ONLY GOOD GUY IN THE GAME - probable .ml response.
Spot on. I’ve essentially read that on that instance last year and it yucked me tf out. Leaving .ml was the best decision.
I think the tankies have noticed, lol.
We respect those who feel they simply can’t vote for a member of the administration that sent the bombs that may have killed their loved ones
Try explaining this to .ee, .world
Thanks for making it disgustingly obvious how easy it is to cherry-pick statements, excluding the full context, to push forward an agenda.
We all know the situation. But we also have more folds in our grey matter to understand the consequences of the alternatives.
“other people may disagree with me, but it’s only because i am smarter than them, if they were smart like me, they’d agree with me actually”
Extracting that statement is perfectly fine because it’s the one point that Harris supporters can’t get through their thick skulls. It is actually possible to make the case to vote for Harris without directing preachy paternalistic bullshit at people who have lost the lives of friends and family to this administration.
I realize fully the threat Trump is, and I’m reluctantly voting Harris myself. I want Harris to win, and I see you preachy morons driving other potential Harris voters away and it’s maddening. You self-righteous assholes need to get a fucking clue. Please go do something useful like read a book on the art of persuasion until this election is over because you’re not helping.
Way ahead of you. When trying to persuade, you need to know your audience. I’m going door to door canvassing, and having conversations with voters that have these concerns. Those conversations, meeting people one-on-one with empathy, has a profound effect.
In contrast, here, I was responding to someone who was obviously acting in bad faith. I’m not trying to convince that person, but making sure others observing the conversation don’t feel gaslit and second-guess the reality others are trying to distort.
I’m not as dense as I might appear. However, I do appreciate you calling me out so we can have a conversation like this. It’s important, and it helps us all learn and grow.
I don’t share the same read on that comment, but it appears you are more reasonable than I gave you credit for. Thank you for your door to door work for the cause.
You can’t just call someone else’s perspective bad faith because you can’t understand how they might legitimately hold it. Do you expect others to treat your perspective that way?
Its nice that you canvas but its irrelevant as well, especially so since you state you treat people differently depending if they are face to face or not.
The original quote stuck out to me too, because its the part noone on this website will say to someone who’s voting third party.
You say gas lighting and bad faith like you have any idea their intent. If I were to use the same standard what is top stop me from declaring your posts bad faith as well?
Easier to block them and move on.
That is fucking brutal.
I agree but man what a horrible choice.
yeah its a truly dystopian choice but voting for somebody doesn’t mean you approve of everything they have done or will do.
It just means for those with affected friends and families they have done the cruel calculus and have decided which path will be lesser of two evils.
I fully expect trump to try to deport palestinian refugees and its crazy this is where we are at.
I mean, he’s promised to deport Americans who protest on behalf of the Palestinians. He sure wouldn’t hesitate to deport Palestinian refugees.
It is no choice between someone who disappoints me in their responses on this issue, and someone who openly wonders if sending a nuclear warhead into a hurricane a couple hundred miles offshore will lead to a positive result. And of course that was with where his mental state was at over 4 years ago.
Well said!!
Every election in the US is that way. It’s a choice of the lesser evil and you can only vote against the greater evil not vote for good.
Every general election is that way. We’ve had alternatives.
If Harris loses the fault will be with every Democrat that voted Biden over Sanders in 2020. That was the window we had to transform the Democrats into a party that would absolutely crush the MAGA movement. We missed it and we may not see another in this lifetime.
IA! Fthagn!
And every cycle both choices become more and more evil.
Not every election has a US supported genocide as an issue, though.
The US needs to fix their voting system. Preferential voting, run-off, whatever. First past the post sucks.
Also the gerrymandering.
Tankies: “B-but now we can’t swing the election to Trump with our constant whining and unrealistic demands!”
Trump will cause millions to die in the middle East and in Ukraine. Being pro peace and pro Trump is impossible. These people are either massive, massive morons or saboteurs.
Indeed he will, and so will harris. Biden has slow walked support for Ukraine as well.
I’m sorry Kamala has decided to be a shitty human (its hardly just gaza that has caused my vote to be casted for a 3rd party). But thats the way the cookie crumbled. I can do more to protect people on these shores via other means of direct action. Kamala changing positions on gaza is all i can do for my Palestinian brothers and sisters.
Your third party vote causes waaaay more damage to “people on these shores” (and on all other “shores”) than any possible direct action could mitigate. Any legal action, anyway.
If you think changing a position on genocide is unreasonable, you are the problem. No one is saying dont protect israel, no one is saying they cant defend themselves. Neither situation applies atm. Israel is the aggressor at this point.
Have you ever noticed how everyone goes on and on about the right to defend themselves and then conveniently ignoring that as soon as the threat is neutralized self defense no longer applies?
Israel is the antagonist at this point. They dont have to keep invading new regions. They’ve managed to kill more hostages than they’ve rescued.
They keep killing journalist, doctors, nurses, etc from international organizations.
If you think telling kamala and the Democrats to stop supporting this is unreasonable: You. Are. The. Problem.
Refusing to support genocide is an unrealistic demand, and it also makes you a tankie, despite the fact that tankies are known for refusing to acknowledge historical genocides.
😂 imagine thinking not supporting a genocide is an unreasonable demand. Say the quiet part out loud. Phew.
Seek help child. You certainly need it.
I think you misunderstood my point. I am absolutely opposed to genocide and all those who support it.
I wish these .ml clowns would hold their impotent revolution stirring for ONE critical election. Once trump is gone and MAGA gets told they are unacceptable by a massive blue tsunami, then trump is completely into dementia before he gets another chance to lose, then you can go be a hero and fight against our interests at home in favor of…still doing genocide…or whatever ignorant magical change you think is going to happen instead.
If they’re having their revolution by voting in an election they need to brush up on what a revolution is.
yes, this is what makes you suspect they are bot/trolls.
If they know they need a revolution, then actually revolt - with fucking petardes and guillotines; that type of shit. If they’re not ready to do that, they may as well kick trump in the balls first whilst they muster the wherewithal.
"Voting thrd party because voting is broken?! " wtf?
Strawman. You can just ask third party voters what they think their vote will mean.
Same if they think abstentionism positively impacts their chances of revolution.
And then the next Trump will stand up, there is a long waiting line already.
What nees to change is the game, the rules. Elections should be counting ALL votes and comparing those, not voting for guys that will elect your guy. Elections should NOT be winner takes all, NOT first past the post. The US needs 30 political parties, not two, not three. The entire political system needs to be redesigned and rebuilt from the ground up
They’ve already proven repeatedly that other nutjob candidates just don’t hit the same for his base
And term limits at all stages, right up to supreme court justices.
Absolutely
Dont disagree ive been actively campaigning for rcv etc in my state for years. Thankfully i can do two things at the same time.
Would that mean some sort of coalition government?
“Guys, I get it, the Holocaust is bad, but if we vote for Himmler, he will stop it. Hitler will do the holocaust but even more bad!”
Edit: sandbox this not directed at you. Just clarifying.
Last I checked no one has suggested supporting trump instead. Seek help you’ve been seeing things that are not real.
To everyone else show up, vote with your heart. I live in a safe state, i still voted down ballot for the majority of my reps. If you’re in a similar situation please consider doing the same and contacting your reps and letting them know why. Dont let Kamala and the dnc force you into supporting a genocide its not worth it.
If you’re in a swing state do what you need to do to protect your local community in whatever way you can. Yes, including supporting harris if thats what it’ll take, despite shitty of a candidate she is1. I promise you people like myself are not upset with people supporting kamala. I have no interest in shaming you for voting.
But if you think trying to stop a genocide is unreasonable, well… You’re the problem, and i will happily call you out for your disgusting bullshit.
1 Kamala has remained uncommited to labor. (No policies for pto,sick leave, healthcare reform, workers rights.
Kamala has remained uncommited to keeping khan the best head of the FTC we’ve seen in my life. See related mentions about labor they’re coupled.
Kamala has done more to harm the muslim community than just supporting a genocide shes actively suppressed them in our own country, if she’s willing to throw one minority group under the bus shes willing to throw others.
It’s depressing as fuck that so many Democrats put this all down as a Trump problem and think his demise will make the slightest bit of difference.
As long as we have Democrats like Kamala, we will have Republicans like Trump. This didn’t start with Trump, and it won’t end with Trump.
Now go ahead and down vote my post and forget I ever said it so we can be right back here in another 4 years.
As long as we have Democrats like Kamala, we will have Republicans like Trump.
Ah, this makes sense, since Trump didn’t appear before Harris did. Smart thing to say.
Democrats like Kamala. She is hardly a departure from the Democratic establishment brand.
If you insist!
See you then.
Why when i can do it now? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now.
If kamala loses thats her fault. Not mine. She could have demonstrated support for Palestinians she has decided to snub a minority group at literally every turn.
No one is asking kamala to commit to a course she has no control over. Whether we sell arms to Israel is squarely in the presidents hands. We have laws in the books that cover this exact situation. Kamala needs to ‘follow the law’ as she is often quoted saying.
Now i suggest you go get checked for mental health issues as you clearly think committing a genocide is perfectly acceptable and that people voting against it are the problem. No one has forced Kamala into this position but herself. No one has forced you into your insanity except yourself.
You’re not trying to plant a tree, you’re trying to burn down the forest.
Some of us have lost many family members in Gaza and Lebanon.
Watch the “a vote for Kamala is a vote for genocide” crowd claim these Palestinian and Lebanese Americans support genocide in Palestine and Lebanon.
I love you but let’s let the bad faith people speak for themselves.
Those shitty trolls pretending to be tankies don’t need your help.
They were going to come in here regardless. And they have.
Welcome to your first exposure to the NGO and political class constellation. You might notice that the letter itself is not just Palestinians, either, but includes, per their own statement, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leqders”. Notice how many are top-level leadership of various Dem-connected NGOs and how few seem to be average folks.
Dems have done the same thing when it comes to supporting cops against demands for racial justice re: policing. They gather a set of black " community leaders", I.e. business owners and heads of NGOs and party-associated orgs, and then say, “but actually we want more cops!” It is tokenizing.
But you have correctly identified its purpose: to get you to participate in the tokenization and have a green light for complicity in genocide. After all, Real Palestinians ™ gave you permission, right?
Called it.
“I care more about Palestine than those worthless Palestinians do.”
“But I don’t care at all about Ukraine or any domestic issues.”
Better yet, ask TheOub about Tiananmen.
Or the Uyghurs. Bring that topic up, and suddenly his mama is calling him home for dinner.
“Domestic issues” - they can’t complain about the domestic issues, because the country they are in will then send them to a gulag or help them fall out of a high window.
Please do your best to not tokeize marginalized communities. I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list. They do not speak for Palestinians. These are party insiders and the heads of NGOs. And, oer the letter itself, which you obviously did not read, it is signed not just by Palestinians, but by “Arabs, Progressive Democrats, and Community Leaders”.
Democrats do this tokenizing bullshit all the time. Their favorite target is black people where they use the same subclass of people and claim thev speak for " the black community" itself a racist statement, as black people are not a monolith, just like Palestinians are not a monolith.
Imagine if you saw a headline and letter that read, “Latinos sign letter urging lower wages for Latinos” and it was just signed by a bunch of CEOs. Would you go around telling people that if they want higher wages for Latinos, they know better than Latinos? Would you pretend this is a representative group? Would you go around demanding lower pay?
I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list.
Thank goodness those backward people have you as their savior!
I work in solidarity, not saviorism. Please do your best to act in good faith and not make things up. It is particularly disgusting when I am opposing a genocide for you to attempt dishonest zingers.
The point I was making was that this letter is not representative despite the various commenters here attempting to tokenize Palestinians.
In solidarity with the Palestinians who agree with you but not the Palestinians who don’t, apparently. Their opinions are irrelevant.
I work in solidarity with all Palestinians, but that does not mean I agree with or do work in agreement with the opinions of every Palestinian. That is the tokenizing logic I am referring to.
Palestinians are not a monolith. Please stop treating them as one. They are real, actual people.
And the Palestinians who signed this letter - which was not just signed by Palestinians - are relevant. Unfortunately their relevance in this instance is in a display of party loyalty and in favor of a candidate doing genocide, and it is not coincidental that they drew from NGOs and party insiders to curate the signatories.
It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is. So if you have the choice between a vote to keep Trump out, or not voting and making it easier for him to take over, the less worse (but still bad) option for Palestine is to vote for whoever will most effectively keep Trump out.
I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.
It’s not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is.
Netanyahu already has unconditional material support for the genocide from the Biden-Harris administration and they help run interference quite competently both internationally and domestically. They would still have you believe they are working for a “ceasefire” while celebrating the assassination of negotiators and sending unlimited JDAMs to bomb children in refugee camps.
There is no worse. They are far more competent at this.
Though again, you should be against genocide and not support genociders. It is not strategic to nirnalize genocide. It is not smart tactics to be a guaranteed lever pull even up to genocide.
I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.
It is not pragmatic at all. It is just the lesser evil argument that Dems always use to sheepdog people with a conscience into helping them out. It is a one-way street, as they never actually have to do anything at all that you demand, they are, correctly, treating you as a guaranteed cote. They will just send their PR teams at you.
We are in this position right now because of this “pragmatism” that prevents any notion of accountability or principal or the idea that you should be able to make a demand and have it reflected in policy. The genocide in Gaza is very unpopular at least in polls. The reason the political class does not follow this popular will is that you are not perceived as any kind of threat. You gladly give away all leverage and announce you will always do so, even up to voting for genocide!
And this is just disempowerment at the level of an individual. We are of course much more powerful when we organize together and build towards leverage. But that must be done through organizations and cannot happen through me, an individual, telling you that you have a moral responsibility to work against and never for genociders.
See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide. But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.
Such people do not care. They didn’t care that Roe got struck down because they acted like Clinton would have picked the exact same SCOTUS justices since “both parties are the same.”
And when brown people and queer people get marched into camps under Trump, they’ll tell us that Harris would have done the same thing and if we wanted change, we should have voted for a third party candidate without saying which candidate that should have been.
Very easy to have such opinions from your ivory throne.
See in the start you’re right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide.
Actually I argued that the Biden-Harris administration is particularly competent at it, as they provide full, unconditional support but also rope Europe into it and convince their domestic base to not oppose them.
If Trump had been in office the people here currently doing genocide apologetics would be in the streets and building power against this. And Europe would be less subservient to US interests.
It is important to understand that impact is not just the overt garbage a politician says, it is what their policies are and how effective their propaganda is.
But you act like that means they’re identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.
No I don’t.
Just don’t bring up CCP genocide, they are totally cool with that genocide.
They claim it isn’t happening. Just a Western lie.
Welcome to the Dick chopping block shop. We can take off half an inch or the whole thing
Edit
I hope you people downloading me realize that not pulling the lever in the trolley problem is a choice just as much as pulling the lever
We all understand that people are allowed to make stupid choices.
Man, I hope this changes some minds, but it might be too little too late. She’s had a lot of opportunities to turn things around with the Arab community, and she’s flat out ignored all of them. I’m really worried this will be her version of Hillary’s, “I don’t need to campaign in the Rust Belt,” decision.
She’s had a lot of opportunities to turn things around with the Arab community, and
You DO realize that she can’t campaign on that, right?
I know it’s a little subtle for an American political scene that no longer uses such terms as waffler and carpet-bagger, but these used to be campaign-wrecking slurs.
She’d be labeled a waffler in seconds. And not only would we like her to change her position, but so would the gqp for the political damage. She can’t change until she’s achieved a 4-year contract.
No one is saying she has to do a 180 on Gaza, but she could have let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, or met with the Uncommitted leadership last month. It would take very little effort to make herself look more appealing to Arab Americans than Biden and Trump, but she just didn’t do it.
It’s the lawyer effect, they overanalyze everything and make “safe” bets. Trump is going out there and waving his bare ass around while the Dems sit above wringing their hands about what each micro group might think. They’re too worried about stroking “group leaders” egos than actually addressing real people’s needs.
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It’s simple math: Jewish voting block > Muslim voting block
I don’t think that’s it. Jews tend to live in New York or California, which she has no chance of losing.
A lot of people have grandparents that fought against an antisemitic regime tho.
Yeah, that seems right. I also wonder if they’re chasing the wrong numbers. There was a WSJ article last month that said swing state voters were more confident in Trump’s handling of Gaza than Harris’. It didn’t necessarily mean that they would vote for Trump, and honestly, a lot of the impression that Trump is, “stronger,” on military issues is probably just misogyny, but I could see an overreacting campaign look at and say, “we can’t soften our position on Gaza at all, we need to close that gap!”
It’s the lawyer effect, they overanalyze everything and make “safe” bets. Trump is going out there and waving his bare ass around while the Dems sit above wringing their hands about what each micro group might think.
Except progressives and Muslims.
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Citation needed
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Not the way this works, you knob. You make a claim, YOU back it up. Don’t go handing out homework assignments, this isn’t 5th period civics.
Pro-Palestinian delegates say their request for a speaker at DNC was shut down
Kamala Harris Refused to Meet With Uncommitted About Gaza
Detroit Muslim leader ejected from Kamala Harris rally
Usually, when I’m presented with information I’m unfamiliar with, I take a minute to search it myself before I expose everyone to my ignorance, especially when the comment isn’t directed at me. Anyway, the original commenter was being a bit hyperbolic, but yes, the Harris campaign has made some major snubs towards the Arab community, and she hasn’t done any campaign events with Arab leaders.
Usually, when i make some kind of claim, i back it up with links without being pissy about it. But hey, you managed several little backhanded digs, so go slay queen.
It’s a major complication / fault with running a candidate who is in office already. They cannot deviate from the official position, tone, language, admission of guilt, etc.
I’m not saying I have secret info and Harris would 180 on Israel if she won, just saying she can’t even build breathing room from Biden while being the sitting vp.
This is not an excuse for the administration’s stance, just a reflection on the challenges of running while in office.
Yeah, when she first started running, I figured she was trying not to undermine Biden’s ceasefire negotiations, but I assumed she would find some way to reach out to the Arab communities she needs for Michigan and Wisconsin. Now It’s the 11th hour, and she hasn’t done anything. I just don’t understand why they’re completely ignoring this demographic.
They cannot deviate from the official position, tone, language, admission of guilt, etc.
Why not? She’s not the Secretary of State, and she’s not running the administration like Cheney. She can differ from Biden. After all, she moved to his right when she said she would appoint a Republican to her cabinet.
They cannot deviate from the official position, tone, language, admission of guilt, etc.
Just have her hug an Arab child or something.
Why are they so bad at this?
Imo the Arab/Palestinian community would see that for the pandering that it is
Yeah it’s really a no-win scenario. Probably why she’s just avoiding the subject altogether.
Yeah, probably. She should still do it.
Her problem isn’t just with the Palestinian community.
There was a surge of enthusiasm among Democrats when Kamala was first elected because people thought she might take action on Gaza. That enthusiasm soon evaporated when it became apparent that she wouldn’t.
People are desperate for anything and she’s giving them nothing.
Yeah let’s downplay EVERYTHING ELSE she’s campaigned on and redefine democratic excitement to be focused solely on Palestine, and yeah you’re right.
and redefine democratic excitement to be focused solely on Palestine
I’m not redefining anything. I’m telling you: Democrats are not excited about Harris.
“Sure, she supports genocide, but logically you should still vote for her for these other reasons” is not how you win an election.
If people aren’t excited to vote for your candidate, they stay home.
A: Defines Kamala Harris purely in terms of the war Netanyahu started, from an American client state for the last 40 years, which Biden then supported.
B: Points out that Democrats are hugely supportive of Harris, although her failure to break away from all of that and condemn the war in Gaza is a huge black mark, yes.
A: Defines Harris purely in terms of the war et cetera, but this time adding “I’m telling you.”
Sterling.
It’s a complicated issue and explaining it to people who have been spending the last year consuming Iranian propaganda isn’t going to get her anywhere. People want her to say “Israel is evil” and anything other than that will have them screaming “genocide Kamala” in the same way they scream “genocide Joe.”
It’s a complicated issue
“We should condition weapons sales to Israel” is not complicated. Centrists love to pretend that anything they don’t want to do is too complicated for feeble progressive minds to understand.
Fact is that no matter what position Kamala takes on this, she’ll lose votes somewhere and win votes somewhere. Most Jewish people vote for Democrats. Trump just straight up does not care about Palestine. That’s a much more simplistic take.
Well, first of all, I would be very careful equating Jewish people with support for Israel and their attacks on Gaza. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists support Netanyahu. I don’t know the numbers for sure, but I would bet that Evangelicals and military hawks make up a larger base of pro-Israel voters than the Jewish population.
The thing is, Biden’s policy, from a material position, is essentially, “There is almost nothing Israel could do that would limit our military support,” while Trump’s position is, “There is absolutely nothing Israel could do that would limit our military support.” If you’re the kind of voter that would be put off by any criticism of Israel, you’re probably voting for Trump no matter what.
Like, sure, I’d Harris started chanting, “From the river to the sea!” and demanding the immediate decolonization of the Israel, yeah, she’d lose a lot of voters. But if she had taken a position like, “Israel has a right to defend itself, but the bloodshed in Gaza has gone on long enough, and we must acknowledge that the Netanyahu administration has been a major obstacle in ceasefire negotiations,” she would have been massively more appealing to Palestinian supporters, and she would have only risked hard-liners who, again, almost certainly have gone for Trump anyway. Instead, she told Netanyahu that she would, “not be silent,” on Palestinian suffering, and since then, has been mostly silent on Palestinian suffering. It’s like she was trying to appeal to no one on this issue.
if she had taken a position like, “Israel has a right to defend itself, but the bloodshed in Gaza has gone on long enough, and we must acknowledge that the Netanyahu administration has been a major obstacle in ceasefire negotiations,” she would have been massively more appealing to Palestinian supporters
Thing is that she doesn’t really have to. She’s already massively more attractive to Palestinian supporters than Trump or not voting. That’s the problem with a two-party system with only two real choices.
Polling does not back that up; she’s two points behind Trump with Arab Americans and in serious danger of losing Michigan. There is a very real chance that the her position on Gaza will cost her this election.
There has been a lot of talk to pressure Democrats on the Arab issue, including during the primaries. At the end of the day, the Democratic agenda is much more friendly toward Palestine than the Republican agenda. Most Arab-Americans are fully aware of that and it will probably show on election day. But they may as well try to get as many concessions as possible before the election by threatening to withhold their vote. Makes sense.
I get what you’re saying, but that’s just an assumption. You’re assuming that they’ll show up for Harris, just like Hillary assumed she didn’t need to campaign in the Rust Belt. You may be right, but I wouldn’t gamble the Presidency on it again.
Disgusting. Make a case against the fucking genocide then to get more votes.
This is terrible. We need better candidates.
The only thing disgusting here is that you assume you’ve got a moral high ground and superiority over these Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian community leaders. I trust their opinion.
I’m tired of champagne socialists pretending to be all for progressive causes and then they act like they know better than us brown people and are our wiser saviors. As a brown person, that makes you no better than a Republican in my eyes. Stop using us as a cudgel and patronizing us instead of listening to us. Strip away your imperialist mindset and listen to AAPI people to try and win for once.
Who are you to believe you speak for all brown people
How ignorant are you of people with Stockholm syndrome who have collaborated with their tormentors?
Jewish collaboration with Nazi Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany
Removed by mod
Pot, kettle, etc
-signed a reluctant Harris voter
Not that I’m not glad, but this kind of endorsement needs time to permeate, and could’ve shut up a large chunk of disingenuous contrarians a MONTH ago.
Tokenizing a smattering of NGO and party-connected Palestinians would not shut up anyone against the genocide of Gaza.
Nor should they. Nobody should shut up about the genocide of Gaza. They SHOULD shut up about the stupid idea that not voting for Harris is any kind of way to help that situation.
If you support a genocider candidate, you undermine opposition to the genocide.
If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t, you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point. Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.
If you don’t support her, even if you think it’s somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn’t
It is good for Palestinians and all people for the people of the US to think of genocide as unacceptable.
you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point.
Do you think there are no queer people or minorities in Gaza? Are they immune to JDAM bombs?
Though really, you have no concept of solidarity. You seek to pit these groups against each other because the political class that you support puts a gun to their head. Instead of repeating their sociopathic threats, you should work in solidarity with all marginalized people.
An injury to one is an injury to all.
Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn’t really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.
As you can see, I do not share the logic of pitting marginalized groups against one another. However you literally just tried to do that.
Please do some introspection.
Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other. That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.
Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other.
We both know that is not how you framed it. It was not a vague generalization, it was an emphatic accusation, a lie, in fact, about specific groups I was abandoning.
I work in organizations that do solidarity work. Not any org that says “support the genocide of Palestine for LGBTQ!” Nor any org that says, “down with the gays for Palestine!” Though the latter doesn’t really exist, there is no correlary to the division of the marginalized that you are forwarding among those fighting for Palestinian liberation. In fact, my usual org for doing work for Palestine is very gay and very good on gender.
Shame on you for lying and shame on you for trying to disrupt solidarity among the marginalized. Queer people are not your pawns for pithy genocide apologetic zingers.
That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn’t have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.
I think you should do some introspection regarding what is childish and oversimplifying given your habit of ignoring almost everything I say and then making things up to attack instead.
I just can’t get in the mindset of “destroy the US to also do nothing about genocide”. Now let’s talk about your actions against the Uyghers that the Chinese govt has be genociding…oh wait, .ml is cool with that one.
I don’t agree that the disingenuous contrarians would give a shit.
How is her getting this endorsement over Trump stunning? It’s a no-fucking-shit development
Because somehow there are Muslims and Arab-Americans who have convinced themselves that voting for the guy who instituted the “Muslim Ban” and called their countries “removeds” is better than voting for Harris.
There is a reason why Netanyahu and his war cabinet haven’t listened to people (including in Biden’s administration) pushing a cease fire. It’s because Netanyahu knows that if Trump wins, he will have permission to “finish what he started” in Gaza. Then Trump and Kushner will build golf courses there with Saudi money.
Because for people who lost loved ones in Gaza thanks to American aid and weapons, with her agreement and approval, it’s a painful thing for them to give.
And a clear indication of how terrifying the prospect is, for them, of what Trump might do to their loved ones, if he gets in.
Unfortunately it is not that. Notice the description of the letter signatories and their associations.
First, it is not just Palestinians. It is likely they would have 10% of the signatories if they had that requirement. It is Palestinians, Arabs, “Progressive Democrats”, and “Community Leaders”.
Second, it is the usual constellation of party groups and the heads of NGOs, I.E. people heavily personally invested in the party apparatus and toeing the line.
While I am sure some feel all kinds of negative emotions, at the end of the day these are largely self-intrtested climbers. You will recognize the type if you do work in this space. They always pop up when you try to organize substantial changes, they cooedinate with the party for PR purposes.
The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.
I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices, who gets to speak, and who’s a “largely self-interested climber” who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics. Without you to give me guidance, I might have fallen into taking this thing at face value.
Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers? Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to? I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type” and so on.) You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?
The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.
Most are not labeled as Palestinian. Some are from Orgs that say Palestinian in the name, but that ia not the same thing by a long shot.
I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices
Yes it is the overwhelming number of everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide carried out by the Biden-Harris administration. It is the number of Palestinians I have personally turned out to actions that is far larger than this list. And that is just my personal experience in one place. They had to pad their numbers with none Palestinians and throw the net across an entire staye, focusing on NGOs. Yes I do get to judge this PR bullshit. It is just basic critical thinking and knowledge of the context. You should judge this bad-faith tokenization as well.
who gets to speak
I have never told anyone whether they get to speak. Please kindly retract and apologize for this invented falsehood.
and who’s a “largely self-interested climber”
Yes it is the heads of Democratic Party - associated NGOs and party orgs. If you have any experience with these kinda of organizations you will be fully familiar with how they operate.
who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics.
Such NGOs and party organizations are constant feeders for tokenizing marginalized identities and promoting party loyalists with those identities. This is in no way new nor is it rare. This is basic party politics for the last 60 years.
Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers?
As the head of Dem-associated NGOs they will inevitably be exactly that. That is how you gain and retain those positions and ensure continual funding for you and your staff. I have both worked for and opposed and radicalized workers from these kinds of organizations for many years. Generally speaking, they keep a low profile outside of their official actions that are usually relatively tempered. They are either protecting their org and position or they are planning to run for office and are absolutely obsessive about how their career and “past activities” will appear. Fundamental material interests dictate behaviors that anyone who has actually worked in these spaces will immediately recognize. It is conspicuous how this list is curated.
Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to?
Why do I specifically need to know Arizonan NGO heads to know how they operate? I have lived and operated in many states, it is the same all over.
I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type”)
They don’t need to think of it as selling out. Many will not. People like this rationalize their self-interest with feeling like they’re fighting the good fight. But they ultimately know that this list is an exercise in party loyalty and they know who butters their bread.
“You will recognize the type” is not a vague notion. It is understanding a subclass of our society, the heads of party-connected NGOs, which is 100% not your average person. It is as if you saw a letter of 50 latino CEOs telling you that lower wages are better for latinos. Are you just going to accept that or are you going to understand that CEOs are bound to profit-driving organizations that benefit from paying less for work? Do you need to know the CEOs personally to understand their material interests and social role? Does every one of those CEOs need to be twirling a mustache and cackling all the while? Can some of them be true believers that are also self-interested and have and maintain their positions because of how they function in the system? I’ve also known CEOs. Most think of themselves as good people that are very smart
You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?
Please stick to what I actually say, thank you.
I don’t want to continue this conversation. You are lying.
Read the letter. It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between “everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide [weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration,” which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I’ve made on your behalf, versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.
I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You’re wrong, and lying. I don’t even need to speak on it, because as a non-Palestinian I don’t have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It’s already been said.
If you want to keep talking to me, let’s talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?
I don’t want to continue this conversation.
Then why write 3 more paragraphs?
You are lying.
Ah yes, unjustified accusations of lying. Great.
Read the letter.
I read it yesterday and have already critiqued it several times.
It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between “everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide [weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration,” which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I’ve made on your behalf,
Rather than playing around editing my quotes, why not just be direct and honest? It sounds like you are trying to say you don’t think the Biden-Harris regime is committing genocide and that it should be more restrictiveky stated as " supplying weapons". Unfortunately, this would be both false and misleading.
The US does not merely “supply weapons”, it donates them. Israel is wholly dependent on the US for these weapons. The genocide could not happen without them and all parties know this. In the middle of genocide, the Biden-Harris regime continues to provide unrestricted weapons to Israel, including bypassing Congress to ensure that there is no pause or lack of stockpiles.
And of course, providing weapons is not the beginning or end of US support for the genocide. It is an effort to list the many different ways. The US provides logistical support to Israel, including military support. That “aid” pier? It was used as part of the “rescue operation” for a handful of Israelis where hundreds of Palestinians were killed. Israeli bombing intel? The US is flying P8 Poseidons all over the regikn, particularly Lebanon, and shares satellitr imagery on a constant basis. The Houthis standing in solidarity with Palestine? The US ramps up its own genocidal campaign against them (remember Yemeni kids?) and thank God they are failing. The US is sending not just THAAD batteries, but personnel to run them. The US strongarms support for Israel as best it can and threatens those who work against the genocide in Gaza. They immediately started a campaign against South Africa once they brought allegations to the ICJ. The US continues to make direct and substantial monetary donations to the Israeli state. Domestically, the US cracks down on protests against the genocide. They send cops to intimidate and beat us (funded by Biden!), university administrations funded by the feds expel and deport students. The Biden-Harris administration just designated Samidoun a terrorist organization. Samidoun organizes orisoner support and Gaza solidarity peotests around the country. While Samidoun denies the allegation, the claim is that they support the PFLP, which is a resistance organization similar to the ANC, which the US labeled, along with its member Joseph Mandela, a terrorist organization.
Please understand that you have much to learn on this topic. And when you have much to learn, I think the bare minimum is that you, by default, oppose genocide.
versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.
The heads of NGOs and party insiders are not “everyday”, that is obviously my point. It is conspicuous that this is their list.
I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You’re wrong, and lying. I don’t even need to speak on it,
It is generally good practice to support accusations of lying and incorrectness with a rationale, maybe even evidence.
because as a non-Palestinian I don’t have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It’s already been said.
I don’t remember seeing, “TheOubliette is lying and wrong” in that letter. Maybe you can point me to which line it is on?
But please, don’t tokenize Palestinians. You have a responsibility to be against genocide yourself, to become informed and not lash out. You cannot rely on any Palestinian to do this for you, let alone allow yourself to be manipulated by a list of party insiders and NGO heads. Be among the people. Read the history. Understand the violence.
If you want to keep talking to me, let’s talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?
I will gladly discuss this in a different thread but I have decided that this would be a distraction in this one. Please center the genocide of Palestine with your words and actions.
More than 100 Arizona Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and progressive Democrats and community leaders have signed a letter making the case for those reluctant to support Kamala Harris against Donald Trump.
Agreed. I am not stunned by this. “We have to pick the less shitty option” is not new, and it does not interest me. I’d be interested in, say, the world actually getting better, rather than just getting worse at either a slower or faster speed.
Yeah but that’s not the choice offered to you. And you can only make the choices you are offered.
Not true. That is the self - disempowerment that these kinds of messages are meant to promote. But you can do more than and something other than vote for genociders and tell other people to vote for genociders.
You can deligitimize support for genocide, for example. That is a small thing to do, but it I’d also what this self-disempowerment is intended to prevent. Beyond that, you can join pro-Palestinian orgs that identify the US and Israel as the agents of genocide and who work to build power based on coalition-building, mass engagement, and education rather than NGO-style funding and bureaucracy and self-promotion for its leadership.
That is the perspective of one who does not see beyond conditioned existence.
You can vote for the least worst candidate, and also work to build momentum for the radical change we actually need. Just withholding a vote doesn’t achieve anything. The political class isn’t going to look at low turnout and say “damn, elections are getting unpopular, we’d better revolutionize the political system.” Vote, and also work on building popular support for real change.
and also work to build momentum for the radical change we actually need
Humans tend to prefer money to compassion. And that money comes from business practices that make the world less suitable for humans to live in. I think humans will kill themselves before they love each other.
we’ve been picking the less shitty options for generations and it’s painted us into this corner of a choice between a democrat genocide enabler and a republican who wishes he could.
what indication is there that doing the same thing we’ve always done will make things better?
Yes, absolutely. One must work for justice, not support those who actively work against us.
We live in the most depressing timeline. Please vote for genociders. They won’t stop the genocide. But they also won’t turn America overnight into a dictatorship. It’s the best of 2 profoundly horrifying and depressing options. Another decade of international American war crimes awaits either way. But at the least, the status quo for Americans is better than fascism.
With a nation as powerful as the US, it’s never going to be one issue, and the options are rarely going to be simply good things versus simply bad things - at least until we have a form of democracy that is more representative and we do a lot of work on a, let’s just admit it, undereducated, overly propagandized, and far too distracted electorate.
What is the one issue?
Who shot J.R.? Duh.
Keep up.
The US is already fascist, the dictatorship is just of the ruling class rather than a single individual and their functionaries. It is currently getting you to rationalize supporting people committing genocide.
You can do something else: you can deligitimize support for genocide and do work against it.
Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?
Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn’t care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me? Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins? Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins? Or inevitable? Is your message of radicalization “you might die but it’s fine because the other government that wouldn’t have killed you was also fascist”?
Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?
Why do I need to?
Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn’t care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me?
You should have solidarity with marginalized people facing genocide, not fall into the trap of pitting yourself against them because the political class threatens you. An injury to one is an injury to all.
Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins?
A plan? Friend, I have been organizing for trans liberation for years, probably longer than you have been politically aware. We will do the same work as always.
Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins?
Of course not. Though I am not sure exactly which deaths you are referring to, nor the mechanism.
Or inevitable?
That is a difficult question to answer when I don’t know what you are specifically referring to. Many deaths of marginalized people would be preventable if we defeat oppression. Most are the product of policy and deprivation accumulated over decades of control under both parties. My homeless trans friends are not having a good time right now. They live in a blue city in a blue state under the Biden-Harris administration. One died earlier this year for reasons attributable to the material deprivations I mentioned before. They had a better life when Trump was in power and there were larger unemployment payouts and efforts to house people.
Is your message of radicalization “you might die but it’s fine because the other government that wouldn’t have killed you was also fascist”?
The only person pitting marginalized people against each other here is you, friend.
So, your argument boils down to… Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people? Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?
Yeah I’m not defending this system you’ll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in. I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution. I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism, can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people. Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.
Jesus christ I’m so done with Liberals and I’m so done with people who see themselves as “enlightened” leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I’m supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something. But if I point out that, Kamal Harris and Joe Biden are international war criminals who have committed acts of genocide by funding and arming a terrorist state actively committing the palestinian genocide, then I’m spreading misinformation or I don’t care about women or queer people.
I’m so done with arguing on this. I’m nearing a state of utter acceptance that Trump will takeover and probably allow christian white nationalists to start a queer holocaust on American soil, or else that Kamala will win and the neoliberal western democracies will continue to death spiral towards inevitable neo-nazi fascism, and in either case all the while Israel creates its own lebensraum throughout the middle-east by committing genocide on a scale literally not seen since world war 2. You tell me not to vote, to just magically hope that everyone else across the continent will rise up and overthrow the american neoliberal machine all at once by some kind of act of god or something. You tell me that it doesn’t matter if round ups start happening and trans people like me get thrown into mass prison camps and slaughtered. Don’t play this nonsense game acting as though you have no idea about Project 2025, no idea what the fascist right is planning for queer people. They aren’t subtle. They know if they get him in power there is literally NOTHING we can do to materially prevent them from making being trans point blank illegal, to have it classified as sex crime, and to use lists theyve made to round us all up en mass.
How in god’s name do you think you’re convincing anyone?
So, your argument boils down to… Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people?
It doesn’t, no. I said nothing like that. I would expound on that topic but I think it is counterproductive to entertain things I didn’t say.
Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?
I am confused by your conclusions. Please refer to the things I said that led you to this conclusion. I think you are struggling to rationalize your perspective with mine, but I have a very different idea of power and electoralism than you do.
Yeah I’m not defending this system you’ll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in.
Yes, the system must be overturned.
I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution.
Nice! Good to meet you.
I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism
I agree with the idea of individual voting to be a bourgeois concern. I would gladly go on at length about building power in other, better ways, at least at another time.
I am intentionally focusing on a bourgeois moral argument because it gets to the core of how this audience thinks and how they are forgiving themselves for supporting genocide. Their identities are wrapped up in being the good people, and isn’t that, then at least the smart people doing their best to limit bad things. This is why the people who respond never address what I say directly, they just flail around looking for reasons to attack me or make some things up to make themselves feel right or try to make it about their advanced mathematical understanding of a lesser evil argument (that is a joke).
I focus in the bourgeois moralism for one simple reason: to agitate against normalization of genocide. Organizing work happens outside of a place like Lemmy Dot World.
Regarding your last point, there is something you should understand about what is happening here given your identification with the left. Liberals are announcing exactly what level of depravity they will accept for their political class. This one has the filter of racism and xenophobia to libricatw that process, but it is crystal clear: along this oath, there is no bottom. Consider what that means as US hegemony breaks down and climate change ramps up. Dems have already pivoted right in immigration and the climate. This is exactly the kind of thinking that will prevent the concept of revolution from even getting off the ground. You will be labelled a terrorist and your life forfeit by people with this attitude. Just like the genocide of Gaza, they will tell themselves and you that their hearts go out, but unfortunately you chose to belong to a terrorist org and it is actually funny that a Proud Boy shot you.
can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people.
This is “harm reduction” and lesser evil logic that is incompatible with the traditions you have identified with. It is also short-sighted. What do you think the trajectory is for a political class whose voters are all automatically supportive, including when they do genocide? Are they going to make any policy concessions? Why? There is a reason that they are the ones telling you to follow this logic. It is not revolutionary irganozations2 telling you to do this. It is not great theorists. It is big standard capitalist party sheepdogging. Genocide edition.
Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.
The Christian White Nationalists are enabled and promoted by the “harm reduction” vote. These are pseudo-foils serving the same masters. The neo-fascists are responding to degrading conditions and a society with ubiquitous reactionary marginalization narratives to leverage to divert pain from loss of status or material well-being into racism and xenophobia. Dems are particularly effective at degrading conditions while preventing a left outlet, while promoting their right flank as an “opponent” that justifies voting blue. And while doing so, they move right. This course is one of mutual amplification, not harm reduction.
Jesus christ I’m so done with Liberals and I’m so done with people who see themselves as “enlightened” leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I’m supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something.
Do you think that? How? Who told you that was good reasoning? I am sure it was among liberals. I do not mean that as an insult, I mean that it is literally a liberal framing of electoralism and political power. It is how they coopt your energy.
I think I am running out if character space on this comment. I would also like to center Palestinians rather than an extended discussion of US electoralism in this particular thread, if that is okay with you. If you would like to continue this discussion or have me go over the rest of what you replied, I would be happy to do so in a different thread or via DMs.
The “Group 13” from the Warsaw ghetto, led by Abraham Gancwajch, was the only organized group of Jewish collaboraters with the Germans on the basis of ideology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany
If I were an American, I’d probably vote Harris if and only if I live in a swing state or a state where the margins between votes aren’t too high. In any state where the outcome seems set in stone, I’d vote a third party candidate (probably Jill Stein). They won’t get elected, but if there’s a noticeable increase in the number of votes for them, it might make democrats nervous that their political orientation choices aren’t viable. I’d also start campaigning for the third party the day after the election, regardless of the outcome.
That’s exactly what all the people who didn’t bother voting in the Brexit referendum thought. “The outcome is set in stone, no need to vote”.
Don’t waste your vote!
This might make sense in the primary, but not in the general election. The more the popular vote skews toward Harris, the more indefensible Donald will seem when he tries to claim it was stolen.
Also fwiw I wouldn’t feel comfortable voting Jill Stein, there’s a lot of podcasts I’ve heard saying she’s basically a grifter at this point.
Regardless of the result, he’ll say the numbers are fake anyway.
The woman who had no issue lunching with Putin in 2015 after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014? The woman whose current position is for not providing Ukraine with monetary/military assistance?
That’s not a good record on genocide.
Cornell West then, idk.
You’re definitely not unlike many American voters, unfortunately. Uninformed Americans are voting all over our country right now.
Claudia de LA Cruz, PSL!
Voting changes the political landscape, is not about the result but who the politicians need to court for future elections.
That’s the thing, if the democrat’s only rivals are on their right, the only voters they need to court are the moderate right wing, they have no incentive to make any concession to the left, which they can take for granted.
Bad take
Just as this letter expresses people should respect those who don’t wish to participate in this duopoly.
Voting Trump in might increase the genocide but is it different than what Democrats would do.
Those who say time to change policy is after the election must remember what happened to all the student and Jewsish protestors against Biden/Harris 's support to Israel. They were gunned down by rubber bullets and water cannon and tear gas. This will not change.
Donald Trump is openly talking about deploying the military against leftist protestors and calling them “the enemy within”.
No matter what Biden and Harris are doing, they’re not doing that. They’re not fucking Kent State-ing people.
Please google all of the pro Palestinian protests and its outcome. All the protestors were arrested.
Please look up the Kent State Massacre.
It didn’t just end with arrests.
Maybe the Democrats won’t stoop to that level.
Or live and learn, Democrats won’t do that yet, fearing backlash.
Perhaps, but Trump is outright promising it. He is flat out saying he’ll deploy the National Guard and the military against the “enemy from within”.
He is a fascist so I wouldnt put it beyond him.
May 29 (2020)
At 12:53 a.m., more than an hour after the state guard posted about the deployment, Trump tweets: “I can’t stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.”
By that point, Walz had already activated the guard.
About seven hours later, Trump’s then-White House Twitter account quotes him saying: “These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!”
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