They don’t think we’re open minded and understanding.
They think we’re ignorant of how the world works, condescending, and irrationally judgemental.
I’m not saying this is how we ARE, this is just how they view us, and because they view us like that from the very start, there is no opportunity for meaningful dialogue.
It is bi-directional prejudice, and only by acts of understanding and patience and wisdom can that be overcome.
Agreed, for the most part. I’m never going to be impartial and seek understanding with a racist Nazi. They will have to understand my fist.
That’s fun to say, but where they balk is they think you draw too big of a circle around groups to label them “nazis.”
So to them, you may as well think anyone who likes guns is a nazi.
Well they should stop actingike nazis if theyre gonna be so fragile about it. No amount of you explaining their mindset will make that mindset okay
My suggestion to you would be to leave the virtue signaling to politicians and the figuring out how they work in order to beat them to the adults in the room.
What if the angle would be that you understand the underlying needs and feelings that are being expressed as support for Nazism?
“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
That word is “Nazi.” Nobody cares about their motives anymore.
They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?”
― A.R. Moxon
What if you showed us evidence for that actually working in any meaningful sense, in order to stop people enabling fascists?
Pretty true, obviously most racist biggots don’t see themselves as racist biggots. They don’t see us as “open minded” they see us as close minded to their views.
Depends on the person. I’ve been told to my face without a hint of irony that “you’re so open minded all your brains fell out”.
I spent most of my childhood being repeatedly informed by my incredibly Republican family that I lack common sense.
Yet, I have the common sense to know that if you let people do whatever the fuck they want to do with their own bodies and lives then they’ll stay the fuck out of your body and your life.
Perhaps that is an uncommon sense. However, it should be a common sense but the people who claim to have common sense fail to understand that consistently.
Maybe common sense is not all it’s cracked up to be.
Common sense is a thought terminator. It’s just “everyone who’s smart agrees with this”. It’s common sense you shouldn’t inject any aspect of a disease causing pathogen into people. It’s common sense that you can’t burn so much stuff you make the whole sky smoky or permanently warm the planet. It’s common sense that you don’t share an ancestor with an oak tree. Now none of that is true. You should get vaccines, uncontrolled combustion creates smog and contributes to global warming, and all eukaryotic organisms share a common ancestor. But if you phrase things right and say it’s obvious people will agree with your false statements and think people are over educated idiots for being right.
The bigger obstacle the left and right have to finding common ground is the hypocrisy of body autonomy. Vaccines, women’s rights, trans rights, drugs, health choices and more derived of things like this all boil down to an individual decision to do what they want with their own body and no one has any consistent logic. This is just one source of disagreement.
We’re way past the point of needing ranked choice voting to allow people to truly support the ideas the most identify with without being lumped in with other groups simply to avoid loss of voting power in a first past the post environment.
No. It is consistent. Bodily autonomy for everyone. You don’t get to go into the populations as a plague rat and kill others with your idiocy, though. That impinges on their freedoms.
Being convinced to give a shit about other people just shows that you’re gullible, to them.
Back in my teens, a Seventh Day Adventist said that to me. I got the better deal in life.
And, their views typically do not include the things that most of the people I know hate the most about the platform that they ascribe to.
They just think being Republican will make them wealthier or fix problems in the country or make the world a better place.
The single issue voters have an opinion on a single issue and everything else doesn’t matter compared to that one thing.
They don’t care about all of the bad as long as the single bit of good can be accomplished, and they don’t care if you think that single bit of good is a bad thing.
They don’t care to talk to or be dissuaded by their family members who are not approaching them with a spirit of love and care for them.
Beside that, it’s not mentally or emotionally healthy to live spring-loaded with ontological traps that can be fired off with a single phrase to bring down judgment and the fires of hell on the people you meet.
They’re not going to want to hear you if that’s what you’re bringing to the table.
Of course, after Trump in the white house, it’s kinda irrelevant.
Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
That word is “Nazi.” Nobody cares about their motives anymore.
They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?Sure, let’s just casually label half the fucking country as Nazis. That definitely worked last time.
Prime fucking example of exactly what their first comment was talking about.
It’s not a nice way to say it, but it is important to distinguish conservatism from the current situation where you have conservatives supporting nazis, planning concentration camps, and planning to pull a Hong Kong-style silencing of the opposition.
It is important to tell conservatives that the guy they voted for has gone off the deep end. For diplomatic reasons, I would probably avoid emotional words and say something along the lines of “we’re concerned that Trump plans to illegally block the democratic party from elections and trans people and immigrants may have to flee the country in the face of workplace discrimination or outright persecution and violence. His politicization of the military could lead to another coup attempt.”
But that’s just part of how you defuse fascism, those are the words you use with both Putin supporters and Trump supporters.
There is no place on earth and no time in history where “guh, inflation” is a reasonable excuse to vote for a nazi.
Yeah, ‘compassionate and nonviolent’ is translated to “judgmental removed” in their language.
They think we’re ignorant of how the world works, condescending, and irrationally judgemental.
Lol. Yep Though in fairness, I am genuinely judging them so fucking hard.
Hi,
Person struggling to still call self conservative. I don’t like lefties either - they hear the world “conservative” and thing MAGA Nazi shitheads immediately. And they are constantly condescending and judgmental, yes.
But that doesn’t change the fact that if you voted for Trump, you are either a piece of shit or you’re stupid.
It also doesnt mean that we who can understand Trump has now determined he can and will abuse his power shouldn’t try to dialogue with Trump voters without being shitty to them. You’re not going to turn a vote (if there still is one next time) by being an asshat. Just make sure they’re not hardcore Trump diehards because time is precious.
Here’s my problem with the “not all conservatives” mind frame: Nazis and maga have security attached themselves onto conservatives, and conservatives who “aren’t those guys” aren’t doing anything to eradicate those parasites.
If you have 10 conservatives and 1 Nazi at the dinner table, you have 11 Nazis.
I agree with the Nazi statement.
I did try to eradicate them. I voted Harris. The fact that so many people voted Trump after seeing what he did is what makes me question calling myself a conservative.
But I’m just some person in a some county in some state. I’m not a registered Democrat or Republican. Other than voting, I’m not sure what I /can/ do
The fact that you’re trying to figure it out is the important part. It’s important to self-reflect and define your ideologies, not by what others have told you to believe, but by what you personally believe.
Also, it’s okay to not take a label. It makes sense to want to identify yourself as an individual before attempting to identify yourself as part of a group.
The thing is, I don’t think my fundamentals have changed at all:
- The purpose of a government is to better the lives of its citizens
- The constitution is a living document and was intended to be modified as time passes
- Nobody is infallible. We can all misunderstand things
- We shouldn’t change things unless there is evidence that things need to be changed (this is the conservative part)
- You should strive for a moral viewpoint that everyone can apply equally. There is no us vs you.
- Political parties are a detriment to the people
- You should be able to vote for whoever you want. (George Washington’s viewpoint)
- Compromise is generally good.
- We should have the freedom to choose ideas
- Work within the system to find what needs to be changed. Then, change the system to accommodate
- Conservatives and liberals should agree on the end goal, even if they disagree on the me tbh is to get there.
I’m a bit of a centrist. I think we should always take the middle ground, after passing the options through a moral filter. In other words, the moral middle ground between genocide and don’t kill people isn’t to kill some people. It’s to not kill people at all.
I don’t like things like feminism, black history month, and pride month. However, I understand their importance. To me, female, black, and LGBTQA+ are just all people. They should all have human rights.
Don’t like feminists? Join them. The point of feminism is to create a world where feminism doesn’t exist. We’ll just all be humans. Black history is American history and it should be included year round. LGBTQA+ is fine so long as everything about it is consensual - and it is.
Don’t like the gays? Don’t be gay. You don’t have the right to infringe on other people’s human rights. We don’t need to make a big deal about it, or have a month of celebration. They should be able to just exist. My only objection to LGBTQA+ is porn. I should be able to choose between penis and not penis, but that is easily rectified behind the scenes.
I have viewpoints liberals hate: it’s okay to address the adverse side effects of marijuana (ie. Disproportionate imprisonment of a distinguishable subgroup — not subclass — of people). It should be okay to research marijuana. It is not okay to legalize it before the experts have sufficient data and have evaluated such data. The best way to battle climate change in transportation isn’t electric vehicles. Lithium ion batteries are unstable. The best way is to let me drive whatever car I want, and provide places to do so (ie. Race track that’s a toll road), and install public transportation. Then, you slowly take away lanes until there is only one lane and the shoulder to get by in case of an accident.
I have views Republicans hate. While I enjoy firearms, I think the second amendment interpretation ignores the precondition of the militia. The president should not be immune to criminal prosecution of any kind. Fascism because your “team” is on top is still not OK. Don’t like abortions? Don’t get one. Religion should not guide government policy.
Like, isn’t it better if things are data driven (and filtered for bias)?
Universal healthcare makes sense by the numbers. The more people you represent, the more leverage you have during negotiation. Sure, your taxes go up - but that’s how government works…
Fighting climate change makes sense. If climate is change is real and we ignore it, the world becomes nigh unlivable. If climate change is real and we do something about, life is better for all the organisms that live on earth. If climate change is false and we do nothing, cool. If climate change is false and we fight climate change, we can all breathe better. What’s the downside here?
Fines should not be a fixed amount. It should be based on percentage of income. $300 fine for some making $8/hr for 8 hours a day is, assuming average of 30.437 days a month, is approximately 15.5% of gross monthly income. Whereas if you make, say, $60,000/year assuming an average of is just 6%. And the actual spending power goes down drastically more, the less you take home.
Etc etc etc
I’m a pretty progressive guy and I don’t think there’s much in here to disagree with. The only nit I would pick is that inertia isn’t a great argument to keep things the way they are. That is, “we’ve always done it this way” isn’t a great reason to do anything.
Your framing of conservatism is in line with the Eisenhower era when we weren’t linked into this existential crisis about the concept of governance. But for the last twenty years (at least) the American right has been against the very idea that the government should govern.
The left is trying to argue about who it should serve, taking its existence as a precondition, and the right is trying to dismantle it without regard for who it serves. As a result, we’re pretty much irrecoverably talking past each other.
It’s not so much that it’s keep things the way they are because we’ve always done it this way.
It’s more, maintain order while we figure out if the system works. If it doesn’t, change it. I don’t think it’s as much inertia as it is there are a lot of things on the agenda. Let’s change what changes would be more effective first
Hi!
A while back I myself made the sometimes painful journey from a conservative to the progressive I consider myself now. I know you didn’t ask, but here’s some stuff to keep in mind.
The internet has no place for subtlety. People desperately want the dopamine rush that comes from righteous fury, defending one’s viewpoint and crushing those who disagree. It’s true of a lot of people, and I’ll be honest, I’m guilty of it on occasion. It just feels so damn good to be right.
But in my experience, most people in life don’t really act that way. I mean, in high school I occasionally got shit on by people who were “lefties,” but I was usually asking for it. More generally, people were much more likely to ask me questions and discuss our differences. They may have been judging me, but I never got that vibe. It’s just easier to see the person you’re talking to as a fellow human in person. And those people were integral in helping me realize that a lot of the stuff I was seeing online about feminazis and whatnot was simply more rage product, designed to get that part of the brain pumping and let me feel good and superior to someone else.
Removed from the left vs right rage online, I found that it became increasingly difficult to call myself “conservative.” Not because I was worried about how people would think of me, but rather because the more people I met and the more I learned about the world, the harder it was to reconcile what I knew with the views I had held. And when I would try to provide context or data to my fellow conservatives, they refused to listen. Anything that didn’t reinforce the views they held, they didn’t want to hear.
So much of what I thought I knew about “lefties” was from online takes and screenshots that others shared, but none of that matched my experience with real people in real life. And I’ve been so grateful I had the chance to spend time with people with significantly different lived experiences from my own who didn’t shun me for my views but were friendly and helped me become a more empathetic person.
Of course, this goes both ways. The average conservative doesn’t want to kill gay people or black people. They aren’t represented by the extremes either. Generally speaking, people just want to live their lives. I truly think one of the biggest differences between progressive and conservative mindsets is about how many people whose lives are different from your own you’ve gotten to know. It helps us be less afraid of one another. It’s part of why densely populated areas tend to be more progressive, I think.
Anyway, I wish you luck in your journey. Hope you didn’t mind my musing here!
deleted by creator
It is bi-directional prejudice, and only by acts of understanding and patience and wisdom can that be overcome.
Those acts need to be bidirectional too. And guess what?
Replace the second panel red with “woke and gay”
Just “woke” actually.
that’s why the word was invented, to replace the obvious intolerance for openness
Hahahah that’s what they want you to think. Woke is from like the 60s. Do some research on it. It’s pretty interesting.
Actually in ancient etruscan…
… person meant mask. If you call someone a person, you accuse them of playing a role. Fact.
Words change meanings.
So it doesn’t mean awake anymore?
Yeah he thinks it means whatever the fuck the American fat right media says it does.
Don’t you dare fix that typo.
Especially when they get co-opted by Euro-Americans.
are you saying you’re woke on the subject? I thought it was from rap culture.
It’s from black culture. You tell your friends to stay woke so that when the cops stop them for no good reason, they remember to treat the cop like a wild animal and be careful around them. If you’re black and you treat a cop like a human being, you’ll get shot. So you gotta stay woke.
It’s why the word was co-opted by the Far Right, and popularised as an insult. Otherwise they’d have to say “kind”.
It actually comes from African-American culture and has a history that’s several decades old.
I still haven’t looked into what “woke” actually means, but from what I can tell, it seems to mean anything far-right people don’t like.
In left-leaning spaces it means “cognizant of the injustice pervading society”. On the right it means “uppity”.
cognizant of the injustice pervading society
I mean that’s what it means to people on the right also they just think that’s a bad thing.
Yeah, seems like “woke” is anything we’re not supposed to approve of this month.
I do find the word “woke” incredibly useful.
The moment the word exits someone’s mouth (as a complaint), I save a ton of energy on how to handle any further information they share (highly suspect).
Edit: I’ve actually discovered some great art and culture by being warned away from it’s “wokeness”, too.
Hey buddy! I may be woke. And I may be gay! And… What was the third thing you called me?
Also there is no way the second dude isn’t going. He’s going and hes going to bs and eat and drink beer and belch, no matter who else is going to be there.
If it’s anything like my brothers family they’ll be the first ones in line for food and the first ones to leave too.
That’s probably being kind compared to what would be said if it actually were a problem.
Yup they think they are the open minded ones or whomever doesn’t immediately fall down to them and refer to their words as gospel as not open minded or interested in ‘a discussion’.
Is that this generations version of “fake and gay”?
Be me
Liberal uncle in conservative/ trump family
Fly to red state for family member’s funeral
Get made fun of by all family members in public at the funeral reception
My grandma never met you. She lived to be 103, and died last October (2023).
My grandma loved you. She wanted you to do well, and be happy. Just as she did with everyone on earth. It’s physically impossible for her to host a dinner big enough to feed everyone on earth. But the logistical impossibility is the only reason she didn’t do it.
My cousin is a lesbian. She had been married to a decent man, had two kids. Good family man. Married for nearly 10 years before she discovered she was lesbian. The breakup was civil. He did nothing wrong. They both still loved each other, and loved the kids. He was still welcome at the table, as was my cousins new partner. My cousins mom was NOT accepting. When my aunt tried making a scene, my grandma said “Melinda…I won’t have hate at this table. You love your daughter. I don’t ask you to agree with your daughters lifestyle. But I do ask you do not bring hate into my home.”
My grandma was a teacher in her 20s. She lived in a small but growing suburb, and essentially raised the whole town. She got promoted several times as the years went on. Eventually being the district superintendant. She LITERALLY was responsible for raising thousands of kids, who were everywhere from the boomer generation to the millenials.
She had a simple philosophy. Which was that she loved you. She would put aside the world to hear what you had to say. My grandpa used to joke that when WWII broke out, she was having tea with the neighbors and helping raise their kids. Just discussing the day. Choas and war breaking out across the globe, but she was determined to hear about you. And for the kids, she would teach them that everybody was different, and we need to love everybody for who they are. Not who you want them to be.
And she loved everyone. Even you. Even though she never met you. She always said “Everyone is welcome in this home, as long as they take off their hat at the dinner table, leave hate out of their hearts, and tell me about their day.”
The only time I ever remember her saying anything negative, was somebody had said during trumps first term something he was doing in office.
Her reply was “I just do not like that man.”
AIRHORNS!!!
I know that sounds so non-aggressive, but for her to say she didn’t like someone would be like a world leader declairing WWIII. The room literally went quiet.
So I try to live my life to keep making Gram proud. Accept everyone, even if you disagree with them. You can’t just accept those you get along with, and not create an echo chamber.
So if you’re ever in Cleveland, you can have a meal with me. And maybe when you fly out of state to be with family, you can teach them about letting the hate go.
Your grandma sounds like a wonderful human who lived a wonderful life. I hope you are doing well.
She’s my hero in life.
My dad is a loud stubborn alcoholic. Someone who just forces his way into being “right”. Two of my three aunts would just bicker and fight. The third aunt would usually be reading a book, or watching a documentary. She had 3 masters degrees.
From those 4 children my grandma had came 4 different families. With that, meant that back in the 90s, when everybody was still alive, but before the great grandkids came, meant that there could be roughly 40 people in this small condo, which was essentially just one medium sized open plan living room, and a seperate kitchen.
So you’d have my dad barking orders at someone, my aunts fighting amongst themselves. Uncles loudly argueing sports. Grandkids all running around, doing cartwheels, jumping off the couch. Basically a lot of noise and chaos in a very small space.
And then my grandma would very quietly say “Excuse me”.
Whole room stops. Dead silent. Room full of respect. And with a hushed voiced, barely louder than a whipsper she would ask “would someone check on the potatoes? I wouldn’t like them to burn.”
14 people, her kids, grandkids, the uncles, all rush the kitchen, and checking potatoes. Like it only takes one person to do that. I get that. But the uncles are the only people she didn’t have a major part of raising, and even they respect her. Most of them met her when they were older teenagers. So she very much had the whole neighborhood mom thing going on in the 50s/60s.
But just imagine how that works. Room full of chaos comes to a dead silent stop because a woman in her 80s wants to make sure everyone gets a baked potato, and mashed potatoes, and sweet potatoes.
Doesn’t matter what she wanted. If gram wanted something, the world stops for her. And I was 40 years old last year when she died. I never once heard her yell. Yet the idea of her needing to is completely foreign to me. Because EVERYONE wanted to make sure her every need was met. Not through fear, but from a place of love and respect. She had taught us life lessions since most of us were born.
That’s why I don’t use past tense. It’s not that she “was” my hero. She IS my hero. Now and forever.
Your grandma sounds like a terrific human being. Sorry to hear that she has passed. Thanks for sharing.
Ugh, everyone has that non-racist uncle nobody likes to see at family gatherings!
He always stays sober and doesn’t join in the violent and racist tirade
You can, in fact, choose your family. You literally do not need them in your life.
Don’t you just hate it when people are compassionate and nonviolent? Hand me my gun
FAFO will include some people learning that compassionate doesn’t always imply nonviolent
Non-conservarives: I don’t want to associate with people who voted for a bigot.
Conservatives: Wow, so much for the tolerant left! I guess we all were not fam in the klerb!
This was basically a Facebook post o saw someone post. Like, how can you, with a straight face, say shit like “I guess we aren’t all fam in the klerb” when you voted for the one kicking people out of the damn klerb?
What’s a klerb lol
Nm, what’s a klerb with you?
Redneck for club. Similar to “they’re stealing our jerbs!”
But, a meme, and not redneck at all.
A recently viral line from Broad City. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/in-da-clurb-we-all-fam
Broad city is still being produced?
No, but the line was recently viral.
No, but that show rocked.
about tree fiddy
DAMNED LOCH NESS MONSTAH
Klerb deez nutz ex-dee
I for one don’t like associating beards with racist and sexist Americans.
I wholeheartedly agree, don’t let those duck dynasty fucks ruin beard culture.
Amen brother, nearly all foundational leftist theorists had gnarly beards.
It’s kind of fueling some self hatred in me.
It’s weird, in my family the black sheep are the ultra conservatives whereas everyone else leans from Liberal (at the most Right Leaning) to “Let’s burn down a mansion and eat the first non-servant who runs out alive!”
I was kinda glad that the uncle who was “Always trying to be my friend, always hip and cool and with it despite actually being none of those things and instead coming off as an annoying asshole.” basically stopped talking to me or even acknowledging my existence beyond telling his son/my cousin that I was possessed by Demons that made me cut off my dick and that’s why they gotta get the Mexicans outta America before they teach Evolution to white children (Barely an exaggeration), and his son/my cousin was smart enough to basically say “My Dad says you’re evil, but I’m actually going to be somewhat nice although still an annoying little bible thumping shit, because if you’re evil you have all the Satanic Video Games in VR!”
and I said “Well at least you have some level of thinking for yourself, here’s my Occulus (I’m not calling it a Meta), go nuts.”
Lately only my Aunt has been coming to Thanksgiving Dinners while the uncle and cousin have been staying at home, apparently she’s starting to get sick of their Right Wing Christofascist Bullshit.
For the record, she’s Anti-LGBT, Pro-Trump, and believes they eat dogs in Ohio, she’s just sane by comparison to her husband and son.
Like it’s the difference between “Trump’s racist, but at least he’s not a Democrat” Vs. “Trump is literally the Messiah, We’re gonna send the infidels to Christ for Judgement!”, Far Right Vs. QAnon Shit
We’re very civil about it in the hopes that she and hopefully the son too, can break away from her husband’s nonsense.
For the record: My aunt is the one related by blood, not the uncle.
I will say this, I hate Reddit Atheists; the kind that jump on your case for shouting “Oh God!” when you’re scared and worship the Sacred Texts of St. Hitchens. But if every religious person I ever met was like my uncle and his son, I’d totally get why Reddit Atheists are the way they are…
Last time the kid came to Thanksgiving, he was talking to my sister about Jurassic Park… Then during dinner when I was just making conversation, (Everyone eats at the same table, we don’t have a separate “Kid’s Table” sides they were in their late teens anyway) I made the mistake of treating dinosaurs as if they were real and not an elaborate creation of Hollywood.
He kept chanting “The Big Bang is a Faerie Tale, not a theory!” until I “apologized to Jesus for my blasphemy.”
They actually had to take him out of public school and put him in a private Fundie school because he kept failing his classes due to trying to claim most of History and Science didn’t actually exist on his assignments.
I’m deeply worried; one day that guy (He’s an adult now) is going to leave the bubble created for him by his Church and his father, and he will not be even slightly equipped to begin to comprehended the world outside.
Tell me about it, I don’t like my mom’s transphobia. I also don’t like the fact that she likes trump. At least she’s not a Christian Nationalist yet.
My dad is pretty chill at least and I try to be on good terms with him.
What makes you think he’ll leave? I know plenty of adults 40+ that are still like the…
Mom and Dad have to die some time…
It may happen when he’s old and grey, rolling outside on his futurstic hover wheelchair wondering why people say it’s the hover-servos that make his chair fly and not Jesus.
Tl;Dr?
TL;DR: My family’s “black sheep” are ultra-conservatives, while the rest of us range from liberals to full-on anarchists. My uncle, a cringy wannabe-cool guy, stopped talking to me after declaring I’m “possessed by demons” and blaming Mexicans, evolution, and Satan for everything. His son (my cousin) is a Bible-thumper but is at least polite because he wants to borrow my VR gear. My aunt (related by blood) still shows up for Thanksgiving but is only sane relative to her QAnon husband and son. We’re trying to civilly help her and maybe her son escape the culty nonsense, but the son is deep in Fundie school denial of history and science. Honestly, I’m worried for him when the real world eventually hits.
ChatGPT is good for something, amirite?
In my family, the more conservative guys are the clean shaven ones. Weird.
Also, GenZ men voted for fascism more than millennial men so this comic really is backwards
puts his personal Bible on the table at family gatherings
looks back at it every now and again to see if anyone notices it
…I know the type. We have one or two.
If they don’t kill you for being too open-minded and compassionate, you might live long enough go see yourself become the racist uncle
Nah. The “old age makes you conservative” adage is bs. I may not always be precisely on top of current trends, but I’ll never be a racist, hateful shithead just because I lived a bit longer.
Me in my twenties - mocked for my idealism and the related accessories on my car and person that proclaimed such ideals.
Me in my thirties - starting to feel a little beat down by life, really hard to get myself to care about more than keeping a roof over the family’s head.
Me in my forties - starting that stereotypical rightward slide, spent a few years listening to some folks I shouldn’t have, which didn’t help.
Also me in my forties - started to realize on topics I knew something about, those people I was listening to were full of shit. Stopped listening. That idealism of my twenties was quietly going “Hey I’m still here, I just need a little attention!” I couldn’t hear it for a long time, but it never stopped tugging.
Me in my fifties - I’m not sure what fucking happened, but I started to feel more like my twenties than I had in a long time. Still struggling, still paycheck to paycheck. But more believing in the good people around me. More believing in those ideals from my twenties. More mentally flexible than I’d felt in a long while. Peace and love for everyone.
Me still in my fifties - eat the rich, fuck Republicans, and fuck Democrats for pretending to care all these years. I need to find politicians who represent me, because it sure as hell isn’t these donor-controlled far-right and center-right assholes.
I’m old enough to understand that every time you think “this will never happen to me” it’s DEFINITELY going to happen to you.
Good thing I don’t value the opinion of misogynists.
“but if you were so open minded why won’t you listen to Joe Rogan?” Actual point made by Trump supporting relative
Attitude like this would make the problem worse, this is not how they see it and if they were to see this comic, it would push them away more.
Yeah, you’re right. We don’t want to offend any racists.
Open-minded and understanding?
This is an ironic comic. I’d say it’s making fun of both sides, but you know that’s not the intent so it’s just super cringey.
Edit: Oh, it seems I’ve upset the open-minded and understanding. Perhaps the irony has flown over their open heads. Enjoy distancing your family this Thanksgiving and not understanding why you grow less tolerated and heard by uncles.
Paradox of Tolerance
Reminder: there is no such thing as the paradox of tolerance.
The rules of tolerance only apply to the people who abide by them.
Therefore, you are tolerant of tolerant people if you abide by the rules of tolerance. You are intolerant of intolerant people if you abide by the rules of tolerance.
It is very straightforward, the only pathway to paradox is from a lack of lexical understanding of the rules of tolerance.
That’s exactly my point.
It gets thrown around like any flavour of the year amongst American blues, but I am starting to realise most people have no idea what a paradox fundamentally is. Rather they think it’s some sort of guiding idea because everyone keeps saying it and something about a philosopher—the entire premise whooshing over the heads of whichever tribalists “gotcha bombs” it entirely out of context.
Two comments of it here and I imagine at least one of you have never comprehended what it is and where they fit into it. Someone’s the chicken; someone’s the egg. A true idiot thinks they know the solution to that.
Where’s the part you think we are getting wrong in the below?
The paradox part of the paradox is that the tolerant are the intolerant.
This is what a paradox is.
a situation or statement that seems impossible or is difficult to understand because it contains two opposite facts or characteristics:
i.e. the tolerant (A) are the intolerant (B); the tolerant cannot be intolerant. A = B while A≠ B, yet both appear true. A paradox.
The result is a cascade that divides further and shifts power based on which tolerant group becomes the most intolerant of other’s ideas the most at the time; the ideologies meaning nothing in the end. The philosophy that the intolerant tend to have power.
In your cartoon, which starts with a question that immediately abandons any explanation of the paradox and then ironically just guides you on how to be participant in it, you eould see the paradox in effect if you go back just one step. Mein Kompf literally states how he was liberal and tolerant but had to cease that in order to stop the perceived intolerant for German nationalism. Is this a ideology you disagree with? Probably. But it doesn’t matter in the paradox.
Then becoming the intolerant himself, we know what happened next; power. Then the tolerant no longer tolerating him—EU and friends; power shifts to them. That’s the paradox. The intolerant is always the majority at the time; ideologies be damned. It’s a repetitive cycle conflicting itself—a paradox.
If you are coming from the perspective of an opposing ideology, you will of course not tolerate it. But that’s not the philosophical point. Subsequently, the red hats quote the exact same paradox inappropriately as well.
To approach it philosophically, as intended, you must first ask; what is currently considered intolerant in this society? You cannot have personal opinions influence it, else you have already missed the point. From there, you are able to ponder it appropriately. Philosophy is a thought exercise; not to be used as a ammunition of opinion battles. It is merely an observation to ponder and open deeper discourse.
Edit: Hey, y’all can oppose this comment, but in 1945 the conception of thought was established. If you have other ideas of that, you’ll need to propose a new idea instead of raping someone else’s idea as much as the other tribes
It’s really not complicated. It’s the point of it. You’re encouraged to expand on it with new ideas, not trying to reshape existing ones to suit your narrative. Philosophy 101.
Fair, but if the cartoon is a rebuttal of the premise of the paradox, which would seem to be that we can’t call it tolerance unless it’s absolute, it’s a rebuttal I accept.
Yes, yes, we should totally be understanding of the people who want to see my cousin dead and my uncle run out of the country.
/s because there are sadly a lot of people who legitimately think this way
What aren’t we understanding about, eh?
Any possible reason why anyone could have voted for Trump besides being racist or an idiot. That blanket labelling half the country as Nazis wasn’t effective last time and isn’t effective now. That a large portion of the populace feels so desperate for change that they were willing to vote for the fucking cheeto supreme.
I voted for Harris, and I completely believe Trump was the worst fucking choice the voting populace could have made, but unless you’re actually calling for the extermination of roughly half the country there has to be some attempt at understanding or bridging the gap wherever it can be bridged.
Nobody mentioned trump but you.
I mean, they’re wearing red hats in the second panel. They inferred Trump.
Are you kidding me? No one is really that stupid. We all know what the red hats in the second panel are supposed to be.
For one, the snide “tolerant left” comment is never about any particular person or party - it’s a bad faith attempt to discredit valid critique of hateful or harmful actions, unreasonably demanding universal tolerance of everything, including intolerance.
Second, the comic is explicitly about racists, basically all of which are going to be trump voters, but that says nothing about any other part of that group. Extrapolating that to be an attack on all of those voters is flipping the equation to fit your own outrage.
That you’re putting so much effort into defending trolls and racist is certainly interesting.
That you’re putting so much effort into defending trolls and racist is certainly interesting.
If you want to imagine that I’m part of that group, despite me clearly saying otherwise across many many comments, I can’t stop you.
Claiming that I’m trying to defend “trolls and racists” when I’ve been direct and specific about my points across my many comments on this post is also flipping the equation to fit your outrage or point of view.
As succinctly as possible: Denigrating, insulting, putting down, and condescencion towards people with differing political beliefs (especially when it’s a group as large as the Trump voting base) is not a recipe for successful movement forward towards a better future for the United States. Whether that’s fair or not doesn’t matter to this point. Whether they’re all the fucking worst or not doesn’t matter to this point. You cannot ignore or other a group this size and then be surprised when they react negatively back towards you. Who started it also does not matter to this point.
It sucks that this is the case. It’s a great big pot of unfair bullshit stew. Why should anyone have to even give those assholes the time of day, etc.
But unless you expect these people to magically stop existing, some way to work with or around them will need to be worked towards. I’d prefer to think that we’re better than advocating for a purge or removing peoples’ rights en masse, so that means that some amount of meeting people where they are and engaging with them as other people will need to happen.
The only one who can decide if they’re up for that effort is each individual person, but if no one even tries this shitshow won’t change.
One last time - the post is about racists. The comment is about racists. You’re the one trying to make it about anything else, which only serves to enable and legitimize racists. If that’s not your intention, I’d recommend changing your game plan, because so far, you look like an apologist for racists at best.
If you were willing to vote for said cheeto supreme over egg prices, that makes you an idiot.
If you somehow think that those idiots are going to just magically disappear and we’ll suddenly be able to vote all the right people in without making any attempts to engage with and turn them, that makes you an idiot too.
Self righteous elitism is cathartic but does nothing to move any of us towards a better future. Nine times out of ten when I bring this up, people ignore it or suggest we somehow get rid of the Trump voters.
If there were an ethical way to get rid of or away from them, Id be down. As for reaching out, thats all well and good but I am not a politician and am under no obligation to be nice
unless you’re actually calling for the extermination
Only one group wants to exterminate people, and it’s not the folks avoiding their racist uncle at Thanksgiving.
Is it the tankies? I see them talk about killing people a lot, last time I mentioned it cowbee or whatever his name is (he’ll comment under this with enough time I swear he uploaded his consciousness to lemmy) basically just said “well yeah, they deserve it,” they aren’t even trying to hide it anymore. And by their standards, many of us on lemmy are “liberal” enough to be considered by the tankies to be nazis, who they say they want to kill, meaning they want to kill many of us (possibly you included, if you’re not a hardline Marxist-Leninist, i.e “left enough to live for now”).
OH you meant racists. Well then, no there’s two groups. My mind went to tankies because we’re on lemmy so surely you haven’t missed those. OH .ml, I see…
My mind went to tankies because we’re on lemmy so surely you haven’t missed those. OH .ml, I see…
Don’t forget the group that assumes they know everything about everyone based on their Lemmy instance. Those folks can eat a bag of dicks!
I’d say we’re about 70 million short of there being enough tankies in the US to worry about. Magas on the other hand… So yeah, the racist magats and the rest of us cover all the cases being discussed here.
My point wasn’t that tankies are more numerous than racists, my point was that “only one group” is not accurate, being that there are “at least two groups.”
Furthermore, being a murderous dickhole is only a problem in sufficient numbers? Well by your logic I guess we don’t have to worry about the KKK then, there’s about 3k of them, which without checking I’m betting is less than grad+bear+ml users.
Sorry, I can’t subscribe to that, murderous dickheads and their ideologies are bad be they one or one billion.
LOL you want so bad to have a fight about tankies because I’m on ml so you think that’s something I like to fight about.
I have magas in my family I need to avoid for Thanksgiving. I don’t have any tankies. Neither, I can say with almost complete certainty, do you. Neither are they pictured in OP, because they don’t factor into the dynamic being satirized. In fact, I’m 95% certain no one reading this thread has a tankie in their family they need to try to avoid on Thanksgiving. Nor do they exist in sufficient numbers in the US to impact our nation or its politics in any substantive way. Inserting them in this discussion is a non sequitur at best and a troll at worst.
Please go find a tankie or someone who feels like defending them for the argument you want so badly to have.
Goodbye! 👋
Don’t forget the group that assumes they know everything about everyone based on their Lemmy instance. Those folks can eat a bag of dicks!
What’s the end game though? We have to find some way to communicate with and turn the Trump voters if we ever want any chance of moving past this shitshow.
And just because you personally are not calling for their death doesn’t change just how fucking many people I’ve seen on Lemmy and elsewhere online openly call for it.
I see barely anyone willing to aknowledge the fact that roughly half the country voted for Trump. That can’t be ignored and the general sentiment I see is that the Trump voters need to be eliminated or otherwise disallowed to vote, rather than any serious attempts to figure out what can be done.
Self righteousness may be cathartic, but it doesn’t do anything for finding a fucking solution for this shit show.
I see barely anyone willing to aknowledge the fact that roughly half the country voted for Trump.
Half of voters who voted, not half the country. That’s a pretty big difference.
We have to find some way to communicate with and turn the Trump voters if we ever want any chance of moving past this shitshow.
I’ve been trying to do that for eight years. As have most of those of us not in the cult. When does it get to be “on them”, you know, the party of personal responsibility? Why is it always on us to mollycoddle them? I’m fucking done.
Self righteousness may be cathartic, but it doesn’t do anything for finding a fucking solution for this shit show.
My solution is that no Republican gets one ounce of interaction with me that I’m not legally or contractually obligated to give them. My maga relatives will get the degree of courtesy and interaction required by our relative positions within the family and geographic proximity.
Maga service providers or vendors will get none of my money if they make me aware of their alliances, which most of them are very happy to do.
The only remaining endgame is riding out the four years of shit they have handed us, hoping we actually get another election, and going to my grave without voting for a Republican or conservative for anything.
I’m beyond done with these selfish(edit - and hateful) assholes.
And by the way, I appreciate your kinder gentle approach.
Although I’m just going full “these people will receive nothing from me”, and I have no intent to consider any other approach, yours is the healthier way no doubt. 🙂
I’m familiar. I don’t know how anyone on Lemmy would not be familiar with it by this point as it’s one of the main go to justifications people use for treating others like shit.
An astoundlingly important quote from that very Wikipedia article you linked:
In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.
(Emphasis mine)
I’ll also point you at Daryl Davis, a black musician who managed to turn multiple KKK members by simply engaging with them as human beings.
My whole point being that when roughly half of the country voted for Trump, it is an absolutely insane idea to just decide it’s ok to treat all of them intolerantly and also expect things to just magically change for the better. Feels like I’m taking crazy pills when everyone tries to self righteously justify not making any fucking attempt to reach these people and turn them.
TL;DR;
Hyperbole and “black and white” thinking aren’t a good foundation for claiming moral superiority.
I’m familiar. I don’t know how anyone on Lemmy would not be familiar with it by this point as it’s one of the main go to justifications people use for treating others like shit.
That’s…certainly…one of the takes of all time.
I’m personally astounded you chose that particular quote, but i’ll highlight an important part for you as well.
as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion
I personally wouldn’t attribute “open to rational argument” and “kept in check by public opinion” as hallmarks of a majority of trump voters, but that’s just me.
Daryl Davis, a black musician who managed to turn multiple KKK members by simply engaging with them as human beings.
A good example of a single person making a difference.
I’m genuinely not sure how you think this can be applied at scale, are you expecting all the people who didn’t vote for trump to dedicate their lives to reforming the people actively trying to do horrible things to them.
My whole point being that when roughly half of the country voted for Trump,
Roughly half of the people who voted, but ok.
it is an absolutely insane idea to just decide it’s ok to treat all of them intolerantly and also expect things to just magically change for the better.
A few things:
“Just decide” implies it was a sudden decision with no lead up, that is incorrect.
Where are you getting the idea that people are expecting trump voters to magically change for the better?
It sounds like you would like them to, which is nice, but that’s a broad generalisation for no citation.
My whole point being that when roughly half of the country voted for Trump, it is an absolutely insane idea to just decide it’s ok to treat all of them intolerantly and also expect things to just magically change for the better.
That’s an extreme amount of projection.
Broadly claiming that everyone is the maximum amount of intolerant to anyone even slightly of the grouping you’ve specified is disingenuous at best, further claiming they are all doing this to magically change the minds of said group is equally ridiculous.
and further down :
self righteously justify not making any fucking attempt to reach these people and turn them.
If you genuinely think no attempts have been made up to now, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion, but I’m sure it’s an interesting story.
Self-righteous, like “nobody but me is doing the thing i think is right, in the way that i think is correct” ?
Feels like I’m taking crazy pills.
It feels that way because you’ve set up a catch-all scenario which encompasses your specific perspective and doesn’t allow for perspectives that don’t align.
If you remove the ability to handle nuance from your perspective then any nuance that arises will seem crazy.
Example of nuance.
“A non-trivial portion of this group of people have voted a specific way, with the understanding that doing so will materially endanger people i love, I have a limited amount of energy and I’m choosing not to spend it sorting through who are the ‘saveable’ bigots and instead direct that energy toward protecting my loved ones (and myself) from the consequences of their actions.”
deleted by creator
Bro thought he could speak freely here lmao 🤣
Haha, I can. Thats the beauty of it. I can express an opinion. I’m well used to this place fallaciously assuming that a single opinion against the grain must mean an all out attack against the tree.
It’s a funny little tree that thinks itself the centre of the forest.
I saw several variations on this exact meme over the last days, and it is so insanely idiotic I’m halfway to thinking it’s some sort of psy-op. Personally, I like shitting on conservatives as much as the other guy, and… do I really need to explain that one can’t simultaneously talk about Haha How Dumb Those Guys and also call yourself open-minded? The moment you do the former you have given up on the latter.
Ah yes. Calling those who disagree with you racist as a knee jerk reaction is truly the mark of an open minded and understanding person.
The uncle has a confederate flag, indicating that he subscribes to racist ideas.
What don’t you understand?
Haha this meme is so Lemmy. “me good guy you bad guy”.
Correct, triggered racist.
Ya got me.
Yes, I did.
“but have you considered my racist opinions?”
If you guys keep thinking you’ve won every debate, always have the correct opinion on everything, and don’t prove it because you think you don’t have to defend any position because all you do is demonize your opponent, that’s how you lose elections to orange reality TV stars.
Keep up the smugness. Enjoy republican rule.
That’s some DARVO nonsense. People don’t become racists because someone told them to stop being racist - that’s literally reversing cause and effect. Not to mention getting things out of order chronologically. You’re just trying to find some way to be smug and “above it all” and claim you have the answer.
You don’t have the answer, you cannot even get basic causality right.
When I drive, i think about how often people are traveling to places they don’t want to go. If only we could all stay in our basements. If only we could be free.
