To be fair, the US has the largest number of English-speakers of any country in the world. As a first language, it has five times as many native English speakers as second place (the UK). It also has one of the highest Internet penetration rates in the world, meaning most of those English-speakers are also Internet users.
The US is a single country that is three-quarters the population of the entire European Union, and nearly all of its inhabitants speak English and use the Internet. So yes, if you pick a random user on an English social media page, odds are very good that person is an American. If you were to guess any random English-speaking Internet user’s nationality, “American” is the best possible guess. But go on a Spanish language forum or a French language forum and nobody will assume you’re American.
Consequently, Americans generate the majority or large plurality of English-language Internet content.
Edit: Please stop replying with “English is a lingua franca for non-native English speakers”. I never made the claim that someone who uses English on the Internet is likely a native English speaker. I am claiming the converse—that people who natively speak English are likely to use English on the Internet.
Again, you are completely missing the point of the internet and English usage on it. People are using English as a lingua franca. There are a lot more non-native English speakers on the internet than native English speakers.
So no, odds are not that it is an American you are speaking to, just because that person speaks English. You are literally regurgitating the fallacy that OP is about.
I love that the real lingua franca, a term from both Latin and Greek roots, literally meaning the language of the Franks (French) is English. Plus, also, fuck you Esperanto!
We should really be counting English literate people, since nobody here is talking, and literacy is more reading/writing.
Literacy is pretty broad too. It doesn’t imply that it’s your native language, nor if you can speak the language (whether you can do that very well or not).
Literacy is going to be a bonefide requirement for most of the internet, with some exceptions, like text to speech and speech recognition stuff, people with disabilities who may not be able to see properly or at all… Stuff like that.
I’m sorry but this is nonsense. I’m in a lot of online communities where everyone uses English, despite it being nearly nobody’s first language. It just happens to be the only language that everyone there knows. Language is no indication of nationality, especially online.
And to be honest, in those places the assumption is usually that everyone is European, which I can imagine is just as annoying for the stray American.
What I am saying is that of all Internet users that use English, Americans are by far the largest group due to it being a very large country, (third most populous in the world) with a high Internet penetration (97%), and whose residents speak English as their main language (78.3%).
This list puts US at ~297m English speakers which is the largest group from one single country, that is true. But 297m / 1,537m = The US has 19.35% of English speakers globally.
You are likely also greatly underestimating current internet connectivity, older smartphones have changed things for poorer countries a lot over the past decade. For example, India has only 62.6% of people as internet users - but that’s still 880m people and probably most of their 125m English speakers. Nigeria has 63.8% internet users, but that’s 136m internet users. And they also have 125m English speakers, who again, are more likely to be the people who can afford an English education, and also a smartphone. And then there’s Pakistan with another 100m English speakers and 70.8% internet users, etc.
Just 3 countries, (2 of which were 1 country 80 years ago) and you’re close to that 300 million count already.
The internet is less American than ever. It’s just that most non-American people probably have non-English language spaces they can choose to gather in addition to the English-dominated spaces. Americans, on the other hand, are more likely to be monolingual English speakers and so they concentrate in the English-dominated spaces.
And non-Americans are all so used to people assuming American defaultism in English-dominated internet spaces because it was historically hugely expensive to get online and was overwhelmingly American English-speaking, that it’s not even worth correcting when it happens the millionth time.
I’ve also put non-metric and US currency conversions in posts online many times. Not because I’m American or use them in daily life. It was just less annoying to convert them when writing rather than hear the inevitable multiple complaints about not understanding things in meters and dessicated jokes like “that’s probably $2 in real money”.
You’re either overestimating the accuracy of your assumptions about your online interactions and/or seeing selection bias from your immersion in otherwise culturally isolated spaces.
What I am saying is that of all Internet users that use English, Americans are by far the largest group
No, they didn’t misunderstand. It is you who are massively misunderstanding. You are suffering from the erronous assumption that people who speak English on the internet are native English speakers when that it is not so at all. People speak English on the internet because it is the largest commonly understood language. So people from non-English speaking countries are using it as well. And there are a heck of a lot more non-native English speakers in the world than native English speakers.
So you are most likely at any time on the internet to be speaking to a non-native English speaker, and thus definitely not an American.
But I would argue that the rest of the world also uses primarily English online. And just by virtue of being the rest of the world, outnumbers the Americans.
In other words, of all Internet users that use English, the vast majority is likely not American.
Of course I don’t have data to back this up, except anecdotally.
Not all Internet users generate the same amount of content. In addition to Americans being proud blabbermouths in general, people from wealthy countries generate more content than those from poorer countries. The US is among the wealthiest countries in the world.
Although it is not the most representative, nearly half of all Reddit users are American. American media outlets have immense global reach. You can probably name four or five American media outlets just off the top of your head, even if you’re not American. The USA’s geopolitical power means people are always talking about American politics or what America’s leaders are doing, which draws engagement from Americans like a lamp draws moths. 7 out of the top 10 English-language YouTube channels are American (fully or partially).
It’s pretty much impossible to prove, but I think the claim that Americans generate most of the content on the Internet is likely true or very close to true.
It’s even more convincing if you exclude English Internet users from India, as a quick visit to any forum dominated by Indian users will cause you to quickly realise that the language used there is not really English but a mix of English and Hindi which is not comprehensible to non-Indians.
Again, the numbers you linked shows that you are more likely to speak to a non-American on reddit than an American. Your entire premise is flawed from the beginning.
English Speakers in the US: 297.400.000. English Speakers in Europe: 260.000.000. So you have about 37,4M more English speakers in the US than in Europe.
Surely you have a bit more thinking power than that. If you gave each of your bullet points a mere five seconds each of critical thought, you wouldn’t have made this ridiculous comment.
Those countries you mentioned? Of course there are people living in them. But there aren’t as many English-speakers as in America. I didn’t say all, I say most (this will be a recurring theme).
With the exception of southern Africa (76%), the rest of Africa has Internet penetration rates below 50%. As low as 27% in east Africa. Remember, I didn’t say all, I said most.
China’s great firewall prevents most people from accessing the outside Internet, and many Chinese people don’t care to. I know this, because I’m fucking Chinese. Is it possible to circumvent? Sure, if you’re willing to play VPN whack-a-mole with the CCP or are lucky enough to be the 1% of China that lives in Hong Kong or Macau. But again, I said most, I didn’t say all.
You also clearly have never been on any forums populated by Indian users if you think that I’m only saying Indians use unintelligible English on the Internet because I’m racist. They code-switch between English and Hindi. If you don’t know Hindi, you won’t understand it. Are all posts like this? Of course not. But a great deal are. I never said all, I said most.
Here are random top comments from the top posts of Reddit’s r/Indiasocial that show what I’m talking about:
Kal bolne ja rha Hu usko . Want to get it over it once and for all been bugging me since some time .
No boldiya toh sahi hai Padhai kar lunga .
Kassh bta pata mummy ko apni sab problems. Bta bii nhi pata kyuki woh chinta karengii
OP ke AAnde jalwa diye
Folks, look what I found during cleaning today😭🥺🥹
I am so happy that my mom has still kept all of stuff in the store room. Woh bhi kya din the🥹🥹
Bhai hamare side ke Ghar mein kirayedar rehte Hain. To un baccho kii ball hamari chat ya backyard mein aa jati thi aur mere ek Purina badi wali thaili bharke balls bahut variety Hain par mummy nikalne NAHI deti.
Time to leave this sub. Har dusara post my gf/bf made this, i went for date, gift given by my bf/gf. Had hai
And also, I don’t use American English. I live in America but I am a Hongkonger and use British English.
They code-switch between English and Hindi. If you don’t know Hindi, you won’t understand it. Are all posts like this? Of course not.
You’re so close. Let me give you another hint: What do you think every other regional sub looks like? (I speak multiple languages, so I’ve been to multiple regionals - including in Languages I don’t really speak)
Also, yes it is a bit racist to assume that Indians are only able to converse in an Hindi/English mix and unable to converse in proper English. On top of that it is a bit stupid to assume all of India speaks Hindi - e.g. most of Bengalurians speak Kannada.
But there aren’t as many English-speakers as in America. I didn’t say all, I say most (this will be a recurring theme).
You’re correct. It’s a recurring theme. You have been made aware by multiple people now that you over-inflate the percentage of USAmericans among the users of English-speaking forums and that you have been incredibly ignorant about it.
I think none will dispute that US located users are in the majority - the majority is however not as big as you make it out to be. (and your reasoning is - for lack of a better term - atrocious)
The only thing I am claiming is that a majority or large plurality of English language Internet users are American, meaning if you are to assume a country of origin (note: if), assuming the user is an American is the one most likely to be accurate. I think I’ve said enough on the matter.
If you disagree, that’s fine but I’m tired of this conversation.
The more egalitarian principle would be to not assume. I won’t deny that. People from more minority locales have every right to be upset at being marginalized.
But at the same time, whenever I read passive aggressive comments on socials from residents of crown countries or from EAASL people around the world removeding about US defaultism as if people are doing it just to be ignorant dicks, I can only think to myself, “Uhh, hello? What do you think the demographics of this space were? What did you expect?”
Americans are hardly the majority of the world’s English speakers, but for all the reasons you listed, they tend to remain a massive plurality, if not an outright overwhelming majority, of any mainstream online English language platform. No, that’s not a license to perpetuate US defaultism. But like… read the room, people. Your good fight is far more uphill than you seem to think it is.
To be fair, the US has the largest number of English-speakers of any country in the world. As a first language, it has five times as many native English speakers as second place (the UK). It also has one of the highest Internet penetration rates in the world, meaning most of those English-speakers are also Internet users.
The US is a single country that is three-quarters the population of the entire European Union, and nearly all of its inhabitants speak English and use the Internet. So yes, if you pick a random user on an English social media page, odds are very good that person is an American. If you were to guess any random English-speaking Internet user’s nationality, “American” is the best possible guess. But go on a Spanish language forum or a French language forum and nobody will assume you’re American.
Consequently, Americans generate the majority or large plurality of English-language Internet content.
Edit: Please stop replying with “English is a lingua franca for non-native English speakers”. I never made the claim that someone who uses English on the Internet is likely a native English speaker. I am claiming the converse—that people who natively speak English are likely to use English on the Internet.
False. Yes, it is larger than any other individual English speaking group but accounts for less than a fifth of the total English speakers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
I wouldn’t have guessed Nigeria is the third largest English speaking group.
This point was plainly addressed. Read carefully before going in guns-blazing.
Do you think Nigerians use the Internet as much as Americans?
Again, you are completely missing the point of the internet and English usage on it. People are using English as a lingua franca. There are a lot more non-native English speakers on the internet than native English speakers.
So no, odds are not that it is an American you are speaking to, just because that person speaks English. You are literally regurgitating the fallacy that OP is about.
I love that the real lingua franca, a term from both Latin and Greek roots, literally meaning the language of the Franks (French) is English. Plus, also, fuck you Esperanto!
We should really be counting English literate people, since nobody here is talking, and literacy is more reading/writing.
Literacy is pretty broad too. It doesn’t imply that it’s your native language, nor if you can speak the language (whether you can do that very well or not).
Literacy is going to be a bonefide requirement for most of the internet, with some exceptions, like text to speech and speech recognition stuff, people with disabilities who may not be able to see properly or at all… Stuff like that.
I’m sorry but this is nonsense. I’m in a lot of online communities where everyone uses English, despite it being nearly nobody’s first language. It just happens to be the only language that everyone there knows. Language is no indication of nationality, especially online.
And to be honest, in those places the assumption is usually that everyone is European, which I can imagine is just as annoying for the stray American.
I think you misunderstand.
What I am saying is that of all Internet users that use English, Americans are by far the largest group due to it being a very large country, (third most populous in the world) with a high Internet penetration (97%), and whose residents speak English as their main language (78.3%).
This list puts US at ~297m English speakers which is the largest group from one single country, that is true. But 297m / 1,537m = The US has 19.35% of English speakers globally.
You are likely also greatly underestimating current internet connectivity, older smartphones have changed things for poorer countries a lot over the past decade. For example, India has only 62.6% of people as internet users - but that’s still 880m people and probably most of their 125m English speakers. Nigeria has 63.8% internet users, but that’s 136m internet users. And they also have 125m English speakers, who again, are more likely to be the people who can afford an English education, and also a smartphone. And then there’s Pakistan with another 100m English speakers and 70.8% internet users, etc.
Just 3 countries, (2 of which were 1 country 80 years ago) and you’re close to that 300 million count already.
The list also gives US as 92.4% internet users, for what it’s worth. A little less than 97% and not even in the top 20 countries by percentage, which is surprising.
The internet is less American than ever. It’s just that most non-American people probably have non-English language spaces they can choose to gather in addition to the English-dominated spaces. Americans, on the other hand, are more likely to be monolingual English speakers and so they concentrate in the English-dominated spaces.
And non-Americans are all so used to people assuming American defaultism in English-dominated internet spaces because it was historically hugely expensive to get online and was overwhelmingly American English-speaking, that it’s not even worth correcting when it happens the millionth time.
I’ve also put non-metric and US currency conversions in posts online many times. Not because I’m American or use them in daily life. It was just less annoying to convert them when writing rather than hear the inevitable multiple complaints about not understanding things in meters and dessicated jokes like “that’s probably $2 in real money”.
You’re either overestimating the accuracy of your assumptions about your online interactions and/or seeing selection bias from your immersion in otherwise culturally isolated spaces.
No, they didn’t misunderstand. It is you who are massively misunderstanding. You are suffering from the erronous assumption that people who speak English on the internet are native English speakers when that it is not so at all. People speak English on the internet because it is the largest commonly understood language. So people from non-English speaking countries are using it as well. And there are a heck of a lot more non-native English speakers in the world than native English speakers.
So you are most likely at any time on the internet to be speaking to a non-native English speaker, and thus definitely not an American.
I did not claim the people who use English on the Internet are likely native English speakers.
I made the converse claim—that people whose native language is English are likely to use English on the Internet.
But I would argue that the rest of the world also uses primarily English online. And just by virtue of being the rest of the world, outnumbers the Americans.
In other words, of all Internet users that use English, the vast majority is likely not American.
Of course I don’t have data to back this up, except anecdotally.
Doubt.
There are 1.3 billion people who use English on the internet as a first or second language.
Not all Internet users generate the same amount of content. In addition to Americans being proud blabbermouths in general, people from wealthy countries generate more content than those from poorer countries. The US is among the wealthiest countries in the world.
Although it is not the most representative, nearly half of all Reddit users are American. American media outlets have immense global reach. You can probably name four or five American media outlets just off the top of your head, even if you’re not American. The USA’s geopolitical power means people are always talking about American politics or what America’s leaders are doing, which draws engagement from Americans like a lamp draws moths. 7 out of the top 10 English-language YouTube channels are American (fully or partially).
It’s pretty much impossible to prove, but I think the claim that Americans generate most of the content on the Internet is likely true or very close to true.
It’s even more convincing if you exclude English Internet users from India, as a quick visit to any forum dominated by Indian users will cause you to quickly realise that the language used there is not really English but a mix of English and Hindi which is not comprehensible to non-Indians.
Again, the numbers you linked shows that you are more likely to speak to a non-American on reddit than an American. Your entire premise is flawed from the beginning.
FYI
According to Wikipedia the percentage of English speakers located in the US is lower that 20%. Does this mean that only 1 in 5 users is from the US?
Population of the US: 334.914.895, Population of Europe: 745.173.774. 334.914.895/745.173.774 = 0,449%
English Speakers in the US: 297.400.000. English Speakers in Europe: 260.000.000. So you have about 37,4M more English speakers in the US than in Europe.
The average American uses only English language forums.
The average European who speaks English will probably spend some portion of their time using whatever their native language is.
The average English speaker in Africa is not as likely to have an Internet connection.
The average English speaker in China is likely to not be able to access English social media sites (great firewall).
Many English-speakers in India post online in a mix of English and Hindi that non-Indians find difficult to comprehend.
You’re correct that the claim that the US is ¾ the population of Europe is erroneous. But it is ¾ the population of the EU. I’ve corrected this.
I admire your determination to bend your perception of facts to fit your narrative.
Surely you have a bit more thinking power than that. If you gave each of your bullet points a mere five seconds each of critical thought, you wouldn’t have made this ridiculous comment.
Those countries you mentioned? Of course there are people living in them. But there aren’t as many English-speakers as in America. I didn’t say all, I say most (this will be a recurring theme).
With the exception of southern Africa (76%), the rest of Africa has Internet penetration rates below 50%. As low as 27% in east Africa. Remember, I didn’t say all, I said most.
China’s great firewall prevents most people from accessing the outside Internet, and many Chinese people don’t care to. I know this, because I’m fucking Chinese. Is it possible to circumvent? Sure, if you’re willing to play VPN whack-a-mole with the CCP or are lucky enough to be the 1% of China that lives in Hong Kong or Macau. But again, I said most, I didn’t say all.
You also clearly have never been on any forums populated by Indian users if you think that I’m only saying Indians use unintelligible English on the Internet because I’m racist. They code-switch between English and Hindi. If you don’t know Hindi, you won’t understand it. Are all posts like this? Of course not. But a great deal are. I never said all, I said most.
Here are random top comments from the top posts of Reddit’s r/Indiasocial that show what I’m talking about:
And also, I don’t use American English. I live in America but I am a Hongkonger and use British English.
You’re so close. Let me give you another hint: What do you think every other regional sub looks like? (I speak multiple languages, so I’ve been to multiple regionals - including in Languages I don’t really speak)
Also, yes it is a bit racist to assume that Indians are only able to converse in an Hindi/English mix and unable to converse in proper English. On top of that it is a bit stupid to assume all of India speaks Hindi - e.g. most of Bengalurians speak Kannada.
You’re correct. It’s a recurring theme. You have been made aware by multiple people now that you over-inflate the percentage of USAmericans among the users of English-speaking forums and that you have been incredibly ignorant about it.
I think none will dispute that US located users are in the majority - the majority is however not as big as you make it out to be. (and your reasoning is - for lack of a better term - atrocious)
The only thing I am claiming is that a majority or large plurality of English language Internet users are American, meaning if you are to assume a country of origin (note: if), assuming the user is an American is the one most likely to be accurate. I think I’ve said enough on the matter.
If you disagree, that’s fine but I’m tired of this conversation.
The more egalitarian principle would be to not assume. I won’t deny that. People from more minority locales have every right to be upset at being marginalized.
But at the same time, whenever I read passive aggressive comments on socials from residents of crown countries or from EAASL people around the world removeding about US defaultism as if people are doing it just to be ignorant dicks, I can only think to myself, “Uhh, hello? What do you think the demographics of this space were? What did you expect?”
Americans are hardly the majority of the world’s English speakers, but for all the reasons you listed, they tend to remain a massive plurality, if not an outright overwhelming majority, of any mainstream online English language platform. No, that’s not a license to perpetuate US defaultism. But like… read the room, people. Your good fight is far more uphill than you seem to think it is.