• djsoren19@yiffit.net
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    3 months ago

    Dunno why this thread is filled with people equating Hezbollah and Hamas, but they are different organizations representing different groups of people. Israel attacked Hezbollah with exploding pagers, not Hamas.

    It’s a pretty big and important distinction, because this attack by Israel was only tangentially related to their genocide in Palestine. It’s further evidence of their expansionist goals as they continue a campaign of terror against other countries in the region.

      • pyre@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        ding ding ding! what’s the prize for our contestant, Judy?

        iiiiit’s never ending war and genocide bundle!

    • Fades@lemmy.world
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      So…your theory that this proves Israeli expansionism is based on the fact that Hezbollah is not Hamas… While conveniently ignoring the generations of bad blood and historically relevant context. Could you be any more reductive?

      It’s a pretty big and important distinction, because this attack by Israel was only tangentially related to their genocide in Palestine

      Hezbollah chose to enter this Israel/palestine war, this isn’t simply Israel taking advantage of the awful conflict to try and gain more land, it’s a blatant reaction. Sure if it results in more land, great, but this sort of thing is to be expected when you send missile after missile at a country. But no, Isreal would totally only respond to lethal threats if they can meet their expansionist goals right? That’s the only explanation of motivation right?

      https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hezbollah

      Hezbollah is a Shiite Muslim political party and militant group based in Lebanon, where its extensive security apparatus, political organization, and social services network have fostered its reputation as “a state within a state.” Founded in the chaos of the fifteen-year Lebanese Civil War, the Iran-backed group is driven by its opposition to Israel and its resistance to Western influence in the Middle East.

      Due to its history of carrying out terrorist attacks internationally, Hezbollah has been designated a terrorist organization by the United States and many other countries, though some just apply this label to its armed wing. Hezbollah’s deep-rooted alliances with Iran and Syria have transformed it into an increasingly effective military force, creating a formidable opponent for its longtime enemy Israel. Escalating border clashes between the two adversaries now threaten to open a new battlefront in the ongoing Israel-Hamas war, which would come at great cost to economically devastated Lebanon.

      Yes Israel’s disgusting expansionism is a problem, no it doesn’t create a clean convenient context that aligns with moral values and right to life like the one your comment is attempting to present. Obligatory fuck the IDF, and fuck Hamas, and sure why not Hez as well. There are no angels.

      • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        Why stop emphasizing right before a very critical point that is obvious:

        which would come at great cost to economically devastated Lebanon.

        Hezbollah is not in a position to benefit from any altercations. It is why they aren’t being the aggressor. There’s just Israeli offensives taking place. Remember Israel is still also doing the same things in the West Bank they’ve been doing.

        The absolute and incredible disparity of capabilities cannot be ignored. They aren’t justification of any, but justified damnation for those in power and control.

    • lieuwestra @lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Sure, but they are different just like France and Poland were different in WWII. Very much on the same side in a fight against expansionism.

  • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    This user hasn’t posted about anything else for thousands of posts/comments since joining the platform 10 months ago. I wonder why.

        • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          Maybe you’re not happy that people are bringing attention to the genocide happening in Palestine but if that’s the case I would question your intentions, not the intentions of the person bringing attention to it.

            • Nelots@lemm.ee
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              But you did jump to a bullshit conclusion without evidence. First. Only, it was about OP instead of this guy.

                • Nelots@lemm.ee
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                  Very bold of you to complain about people jumping to bullshit conclusions, when you seem to immediately do that with anybody that disagrees with you. Also, watching and stalking somebody online for almost a year is not the flex you think it is. Block him, report him, move on.

                • tjsauce@lemmy.world
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                  What are you doing watching someone for a year? What could you possibly gain from that effort? OP clearly lives in your head rent free

    • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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      Israel detonated a whole bunch of pagers in Lebanon. It’s cartoonishly evil, and injured* a shit load of civilians.

      • EvilHaitianEatingYourCat@lemmy.world
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        Civilians? A shit load? Except that little girl, no mainstream media mentioned any other civilian

        It was a surgical level sabotage with almost zero collateral damage

        • Red Army Dog Cooper@lemmy.ml
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          … You are aware of what happens when you explode bombs in civilian heavy areas. You are also aware that is a war crime right?

          also Lebinon is not at war so none of there citizens are valid targets

          • EvilHaitianEatingYourCat@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Well if we re playing “words & technicality” here, so yeah i guess that would be a “war crime”, if Israel did it, but again technically who knows? Maybe Allah felt a lil bloody today, and that’s his punishment

            If we abandon “technicality”, then while not "technically " at war, Lebanon keeps firing missiles at Israel on regular basis, so that kinda justifies the killing of the supposed “civilians”.

            • Red Army Dog Cooper@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              the diffrence being that Missles are valid military tactics esepcialy when sent to military targets, and as far as I am aware that is what Hezbula is doing, as for palistine, as an opressed group fighting for freedom the UN has a seperate set of rules of war they are permitted to engage in, does that make it asymetical, yes but that is how the internaltional law is written (and you dont need to agree with me editorializing of palistine for the seperate rules of war that they use kick in)

              Isreal sent in bombs with no way of discriminating civilian and military targets, and knew said individuals would bring it into civlilan centers, the fact they did that in a way where it entered civilian centers, with no military objective is also a war crime.

              we also can be pretty sure that this shipment was not all going to Hezbula and it can be reasonably assumed others in lebenon where effected, though I will admit this part is me thinking outloud with no evidence to back it up yet

              • EvilHaitianEatingYourCat@lemmy.world
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                What are you saying? Lol i can’t argue with someone who s trying to gaslight me into thinking this never happened https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/27/middleeast/lebanon-israel-golan-strikes-intl-latam/ Lebanon literally fires indiscriminately, because they don’t have anything else to shoot with.

                Israel surgically targeted members of Hezbollah, in this case (i am not arguing about gaza or anything else). This a masterclass of warfare. Unlike their usual strike in the middle of refugee camps lol

                • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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                  If Hezbollah did exactly this to Israel, you wouldn’t be saying “surgically targeted” or “a masterclass in warfare”

                  This is terrorism. Lebanese civilians are people like anyone else, including you

                  Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, resulting in at least 12 deaths, including at least two children and two health workers, and at least 2,800 injuries, according to Lebanon’s Ministry of Health.

                  Photographs and videos filmed by victims and witnesses to the incident and reviewed by Human Rights Watch showed pagers exploding in various locales, such as grocery stores. Other videos that appear to be linked to the incident show adults and children in emergency rooms with severe penetrating traumatic injuries to their heads, torsos. and limbs, and other injuries consistent with the detonation of high explosives.

                  Hezbollah, in a statement, said that the pagers belonged “to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions” and blamed the Israeli government. US and former Israeli officials speaking to the media said that Israel was responsible for the attack. The Israeli military has not commented.

                  “Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully indiscriminate, using a means of attack that could not be directed at a specific military target and as a result would strike military targets and civilians without distinction. A prompt and impartial investigation into the attacks should be urgently conducted.”

                  • Lama Fakih, Middle East and North Africa Director at Human Rights Watch
                • Red Army Dog Cooper@lemmy.ml
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                  3 months ago

                  If you read the report from CNN Hezbulah takes credit for attacks in the area, however does not take credit for the one the article is talking about.

                  I do not see the reasoning for a military group to take credit for attacks in an area but not this one if it was one they launced. I will be honest my analisis beyond here would be tanted by my own personal bias however.

                  We are also talking about civilians living in occupied territory that even the UN has said is illegal and ought to be returned, agian I would like to refer you to the international law that allowes for asymetiric warfare in causes of national liberation.

            • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Your argument equates to “Hezbollah targets civilians so Israel can too”. Either you severely lack common sense or in reality you have a bias towards other middle eastern countries and you think they are basically all terrorists and everyone in Lebanon is exalted about the Hezbollah governance.

              • EvilHaitianEatingYourCat@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                I don’t know who you are talking to? I am speaking about Hezbollah operatives using pagers. I was talking about them this whole fucking thread, please do the effort to read at least before throwing “think of the children!!11”

            • bufalo1973@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              If we follow your line of argument, October 7th was not a terrorist attack but only a war action and Hamas is only a contender in that war, not a terrorist group. Do you agree with that?

        • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          The death toll rose from eight to nine on Tuesday night while the number of injured remained at 2,750, Lebanon’s health ministry said.

          https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-hezbollah-members-wounded-lebanon-when-pagers-exploded-sources-witnesses-2024-09-17/

          I’ll admit I misread earlier statements, and updated my previous comment to reflect that.

          But quit the bullshit. There is nothing “surgical” about ~3k people getting injured. That’s collateral damage, and a fucking lot of it.

      • emmie@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Mossad <3 It was legendary operation. I had mixed feelings towards Israel but they sure stolen my heart now ❤️

          • emmie@lemmy.world
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            True. For a price of one kid Israel completely fucked over vile terrorists. It is a great price yes but something we have been doing since forever.

            How many children allies killed in ww2? Do not ever look it up.

            Unfortunately there are people out there that need to be stopped and it rarely ever happens smoothly. This was as smooth as it can ever get

            • emmie@lemmy.world
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              Islamic fundamentalists yearning to spill the blood of lgbt and all the other western “degenerates” in the name of their god need to be stopped. And it best if it happens without too many civilian causalities but the war is war.

              Isis, hezbollah, hamas, Al-Qaeda are all pests that need to be eradicated again and again like weeds that grow out constantly

              • emmie@lemmy.world
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                Most are terrorists. It was pretty good op, brilliant even

                Of course there is always collateral in any war. Ukraine has killed its fair share of civilians too. It’s unavoidable

                • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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                  No, that’s bullshit. You don’t just go setting off bombs in populated areas, injuring thousands of people and not have the majority of those injuries going to innocent civilians.

  • Bombastic@sopuli.xyz
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    3 months ago

    These bots posting Israel - Palestine war content tire me. Mods should probably ban this bot. They’re not even posting in the right communities, lol.

      • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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        3 months ago

        Would you be okay with a two state solution? Then you’re not really anti-Zionist. Zionism is simply Jewish nationalism, the right of self determination for the Jewish people in the form of a democratic state. You can be Zionist and be against occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

        • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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          Zionism is simply Jewish nationalism

          That’s a big part of the problem. Ethnostates and theocracies are invariably oppressive towards any inhabitants who are not of the dominant ethnicity or religion. Israel is no exception and shouldn’t be treated as one.

          the right of self determination for the Jewish people in the form of a democratic state

          An Apartheid state, which a formalized ethnostate by definition is, is inherently anti democratic and opposed to the self determination of everyone except the ruling people. Self determination through oppression of others is never and will never be legitimate.

          • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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            3 months ago

            Sure. I hope you’re also against Palestinian nationalism then.

            Also compare the number of Arabs with Israeli citizenship to the number of Jews with PA citizenship.

            • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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              I hope you’re also against Palestinian nationalism then

              That’s not comparable and you know it. Nationalism without a nation is an ambition. Ethno-nationalism while in control of a nation containing other peoples is oppression and, in extreme cases like the South Africa of the past and present day Israel, Apartheid.

              But to answer the question you thought you asked: yes, I am against the violently theocratic government philosophy of Hamas.

              Also compare the number of Arabs with Israeli citizenship to the number of Jews with PA citizenship.

              Arab doesn’t equal Palestinian and Palestinian doesn’t equal Arab. To conflate the two is bigotry and ignorance.

                • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                  That’s not true. Especially not when you count the settlers living on stolen land inside the West Bank and planning to do the same in Gaza.

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              Sure. I hope you’re also against Palestinian nationalism then.

              “If you’re opposed to minority rule, then I hope you’re also opposed to majority rule.” What? Simply give everyone in the region equal voting rights, as is their right as human beings, and the resulting state would be a Palestinian one.

              • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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                3 months ago

                Well from you it’s only demonization and delegitimization of Israel paired with a gross misrepresentation of international humanitarian law.

            • BlackDragon@slrpnk.net
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              I’d definitely be against a hypothetical Palestinian ethnostate, but that doesn’t exist so it doesn’t really seem relevant. We’re discussing an ethnostate that actually does exist, which sucks. Can we keep on that topic?

                • BlackDragon@slrpnk.net
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                  I’m not sure I understand the question. Are you under the false impression that an ethnostate is a state in which only one group is allowed to exist and all others are killed on sight?

                  The 20% of non-Jewish citizens of Israel are second-class citizens living under the oppressive rule of an ethnostate which explicitly primarily serves the interests of their ethno-religious ruling class.

        • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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          The problem is that Jewish nationalism (aka Zionism) is what brought us here in the first place. So yes, I am against Zionism. I am ok with a two states solution but Israel doesn’t want that.

          And no, I won’t accept that the blame is only at Hamas for what they did in October, because that’s ignoring all the illegal occupation that Israel has been doing for several decades.

          • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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            How dare the Jewish people try to build a safe home for themselves after centuries of persecution and oppression.

            At the beginning Zionism was peacefully immigrating and buying land and building kibbutz. Violence was mostly self defense of their communities. There were intense diplomatic efforts to allow peaceful establishment of a state as well. We are here because Arabs didn’t accept Jewish immigrants and refugees as their neighbors. Until today accepting the existence of Israel as a neighbor is anathema to most.

            Yes, there are expansionist Zionists, but they only gained prominence and power after decades of Arab intransigence and insistence on war.

            What are you referring to when you say “illegal occupation”? It’s a very nebulous term on purpose. Some use it to refer to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. For others is refers to all of Israel. Being “against illegal occupation” unites those who want to kill all Jews with those who want two democratic states. Be careful who you ally with.

            • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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              We are here because Arabs didn’t accept Jewish immigrants and refugees as their neighbors.

              Settler spotted, the former ottoman empire was actually a relative safe haven for Jewish communities, for centuries. It wasn’t until the British decided to set up a ethnostate with a vested interest in attracting new settlers and stealing land that suddenly the neighbors started to have an issue. Israel itself foments antisemitism on purpose to make Israel a more compelling destination for Jewish people abroad.

              • Omniraptor@lemm.ee
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                You should probably include links to sources when saying stuff like Israel promotes antisemitism.

                I agree that this happens, but it’s counterintuitive to the average liberal and so needs to be backed up by strong evidence. I’ll try to google some myself later

                • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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                  That’s a fair point, can try to track down too when I’m not on my phone.

                  edit: taken from this paywalled substack:

                  Israel is a genocidal settler-colonial apartheid state set up by the European and North American powers to colonize the middle east. Even early zionists like Theodor Herzl understood Israel in these explicitly settler-colonial terms. Here is Herzl speaking in the 1800s, when Palestine was still Ottoman territory:

                  If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could offer to resolve Turkey’s finances. For Europe, we would form part of a bulwark against Asia there, we would serve as the advance post of civilisation against barbarism.

                  So Theodor Herzel felt not only that European people were entitled to Palestine over the people already living there (including Ottoman Jews), but that the presence of “civilized” Europeans in Israel would form a “bulwark” (forward operating base(offensive, not defensive)) against Asia, which entire continent Herzl racistly characterized as “barbaric.”

                  Herzl was born on May 2 nd , 1860 in Budapest, Hungary to a family of German speaking assimilated Jews. His father, Jakob, was a wealthy businessman and the young Theodor was expected to enter politics or engineering by his parents. In a sense, he did not disappoint, as Herzl was destined to become the father of political Zionism. While Herzl never saw his Jewish state during his lifetime, his ideology remains so influential that even today he is considered the father of Israel.

                  Herzl’s birthday is a holiday in Israel, his grave is a national monument, the organization he founded is still active today and the largest mountain in the country was re-named in his honor. It is not an exaggeration to say that Herzl and his ideology remain central to Zionism.

                  As a young man, Herzl was a fanatic Germanophile. He believed that if Jews simply tried hard enough, they could become “Germanized” and shake off what he called “shameful Jewish characteristics.” Herzl viewed German culture and language as inherently superior to that of the reviled working-class Yiddish speaking Jews. At first, he believed that Jews should be Germanized, arguing that Eastern European Jews were so “savage” and backwards that they must learn the very concepts of beauty and nobility by studying the works of authors like Goethe and Shakespeare. He initially envisioned his Zion as a German colony, and waxed poetic about importing German culture to the orient. However, as time went on, Herzl increasingly started to believe that Jews could not and should not assimilate into Europe, and the only solution to the “Jewish question” was the complete removal of all Jews from Europe. If all of this sounds anti-Semitic, that is because it is. Herzl’s Zionism is fundamentally based in antisemitic notions about Jewish incompatibility with gentile society. Herzl dedicated the rest of his life to his goal of a Jewish state. In 1897, he founded the World Zionist Organization, a big tent coalition of Zionists dedicated to creating a Jewish state by any means necessary. As time went on, and the “Labor” Zionist wings were increasingly persecuted by Herzl, the organization moved farther and farther to the right. Given what Herzl believed in, this is understandable. Unlike the Zionists of today, who must pretend to have some respect for the charade known as international law, Herzl was quite open about his plans.

                  In the view of Herzl, Israel was explicitly a colonial project, and he toured the capitals of Europe trying to drum up support and funding for his cause. Herzl cast a wide net, he was not terribly concerned with who supported him, or why. He gladly worked with some of the most extreme antisemites on earth. After many attempts to get a meeting with Tsar Nicholas II by promising to solve Russia’s “Jewish problem”, Herzl finally got a letter saying Russia would support hisproposed deportation of the Jews. He kept it for the rest of his life, treating it as one of his most prized possessions.

                  At the same time, Tsarist forces were carrying out reactionary pogroms all throughout the so-called Pale of Settlement, the home of most of Europe’s Jews. In 1903, the same year Herzl was in correspondence with the Tsar, over seven hundred pogroms took place in Ukraine and Moldova alone resulting in the murder of thousands of Jews. In many cases, the pogroms were incited by the Tsar’s secret police and in others the guilty were simply granted clemency by the government. Herzl knew all of this, and his continued support of the Tsarist government was controversial even inside his own movement.

                  In the end, it was all for nothing. The Tsar did not keep his word and Herzl was perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands of Jews in exchange for empty promises. Sadly, the genocidal tendencies inside Zionism would only accelerate as the movement grew. The Tsar wasn’t the only one who used Herzl as a tool. Starting in 1896, Herzl actively worked with the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II. After a meeting with the Sultan’s advisors in the Levant to discuss strategy, Herzl threw his support behind the Armenian Genocide, a crime so vile it had cut off the Ottomans from European loans. Herzl believed that he could jump in to fill that gap, offering to pay off the empire’s increasing debts using funds raised from European Zionists in exchange for permission to start a colony in Palestine.

                  Although he found almost no support even inside the World Zionist Council, Herzl spent 5 years touring Europe, speaking, raising funds and writing articles in support of Turkey’s extermination of the Armenian people. Herzl cast the crumbling empire as a historical ally of the Jews and one they should support. He called the Ottomans civilized and decent people, justified in their actions due to the allegedly backwards and violent ways of the subhuman Armenians. He was even awarded a medal by the Grand Vizier in Istanbul, in commemoration of his loyal service to the Ottoman Empire.

                  In 1901, Herzl finally got his long-awaited meeting with the Sultan, who rejected his proposal out of hand. Once again, Herzl was perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands of lives for words on paper. Today, Herzl’s “civilized” slaughter is viewed as an act of genocide by all credible historians and groups as diverse as the United Nations, the United States Government, the European Union, the Anti-Defamation League, and the World Jewish Congress, who specifically called it “the blueprint of the Holocaust.” With his options dwindling, Herzl even turned to Cecil Rhodes, the openly white supremacist founder of the unrecognized apartheid state of Rhodesia to ask for his advice and blessing to colonize Palestine. Although his efforts amounted to nothing, the ideological connections remained, and the state of Israel became a close ally of Rhodesia. At one point, Israel was one of the only countries willing to sell weapons and licenses to its fellow apartheid states. Israel even collaborated with apartheid South Africa on its nuclear program, a direct violation of international law which was never punished.

                  “You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial” - Herzl in a letter to Cecil Rhodes

                  At best, Herzl represents the sort of reactionary, callous “realpolitik” that the state of Israel still embraces today. At worst, he was a genocidal racist willing to support even the vilest crimes toadvance his movement. When the rest of his actions are considered, it appears the latter is much more likely. Herzl’s actions are those of a man who did not just sit idly by and watch genocide happen, but rather those of a man who viewed the genocide as a cornerstone of his ideology. The simple reality is Theodor Herzl was a reactionary antisemite who openly called for the extermination of the Jews of Europe while simultaneously calling for the colonization of Palestine by European Jews. He viewed both of these ends as codependent upon each other.

                  While this sounds contradictory, this is only because most people have simply accepted the historical premises of the Zionist movement without question due to decades of well-funded propaganda.

            • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              How dare the Jewish people try to build a safe home for themselves after centuries of persecution and oppression.

              Slaughtering civilians around you doesn’t build a safe home. It in fact makes your home more dangerous, because now people are motivated to attack you in return

            • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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              3 months ago

              Oh, so the Nakba was all fine? Idk, I’m seeing here a second Nakba, but it might be my antisemitic brain… And with illegal occupation I mean all the occupation Israel has been doing for decades. We all have seen the maps of what was Palestine pre-nakba and what it is today. The only reasons why we are ok with what Israel is doing are:

              • United States support
              • Palestine being an Arab country (and we all know how the west hates Arabs in general)
              • Fear of being called antisemitic after what Nazis did.

              And tbf, right now I’m pretty sure the main reason is the first one. If that drops, I’m almost sure Israel is going to have a veeeeeeery tough time trying to find support in the international community to fend themselves against every enemy they have made.

              • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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                3 months ago

                So you want the violent destruction of Israel, as far as I understand. Israel, the only Jewish state in the world. A safe haven for Jews persecuted all over the world. A state that was established by the right to self determination of the Jewish people.

                You place your hope in the US stopping the support of Israel, a highly unlikely event. The US only became a major supporter of Israel during the Yom Kippur war in 1973. Before that they bought their arms and received nuclear technology from France.

                Even if let’s say the USA stops all arms sales to Israel. They would be able to adapt. Today Israel has an extremely good relationship with India. Israeli technology plus Indian manufacturing would enable Israel to do quite well. The relationship with Arab neighbors has improved significantly as well, as they recognize Iran as the true danger to the region’s peace and stability.

                The US would lose Israel’s exceptional intelligence skills in the region. That’s not in their interest.

                Fever dreams like yours to throw the Jews into the sea have fueled this conflict ever since it heated up in the 1920s.

                • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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                  See? This is the “with me or against me” rhetoric I was talking about in another post. I never said I want the destruction of Israel. I said that the only reasons why they are still being supported by the international community are those three points, being the most important the fact that the US supports them.

                  If that drops, they will have a hard time looking for allies because right now, nobody can in good faith say that they agree with what Israel is doing in Gaza, and if someone was to attack them and the US doesn’t step in, I’m not sure anyone else will.

                  That is not saying that I want the violent destruction of Israel, that is stating facts. You might not like them, but that’s how things are right now. Israel has no friends and that is entirely because of how they are behaving.

                • Red Army Dog Cooper@lemmy.ml
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                  3 months ago

                  why do you want a theocracy or ethnostate? Also what one is it you are advocating for, or is it both, because Isreal is both of them under the status quo. and I find both of these types of nations moraly reprehensable

            • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Zionism is a settler colonialism project was able to start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.

              Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history.

              Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.

              That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.

              Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.

              Quote

              Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers. The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat. An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

              Ethnic Cleansing

              • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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                3 months ago

                Sure you can call refugees building a new home settler colonialism if you want. Moving to new places and building homes is something people have done throughout history.

                • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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                  Ok, it sounds like you don’t have an understanding of Settler Colonialism or the reality of Settler Violence and Ethnic Cleansing in the West Bank.

                  Settlements

                  Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

                  This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

                  The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

                  Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

                  While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

                  The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

                  State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.

                  The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

                  The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.

                  • Avi Shlaim

                  How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

                  ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

          • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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            3 months ago

            That would be nice, but is a far way off.

            https://alandforall.org is an interesting idea towards peaceful coexistence.

            At the moment you have a democracy in Israel, an authoritarian police state in the PA controlled West Bank, and an Islamist regime in Gaza.

            • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              Israel is not a democracy, except as a propaganda implement lol

              You are either the most gullible rube on the planet or pushing an agenda

                • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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                  “my arbitrary numbers pulled from my ass say that my ethnostate is slightly more democratic than the people we’re actively exterminating with bombs and starvation, and have prevented from having a functioning society. You should support us as a result”

                  Do you honestly think that’s remotely convincing lmao

            • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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              3 months ago

              It’s telling how a grass roots peace plan by Israelis and Palestinians gets downvoted here. You’re not interested in understanding or peace, it’s just about hating Israel.

        • bufalo1973@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          You know that’s not true. Zionism wants all the territory for the “correct” Jews.

          • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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            3 months ago

            Zionism is an umbrella term for a whole bunch of different ideologies. What they have in common is the belief that the Jewish people should exercise its right to self determination in the form of the state of Israel. Many Zionists see this mission already full filled as of 1948.

            There’s strong disagreement also inside of Israel and among Zionists what territory is deemed sufficient.

      • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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        3 months ago

        Usual propaganda from pro-genocide people: considering that Israel is the whole Jewish world so any kind of critics towards them can be tagged as antisemitism.

        • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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          3 months ago

          If you don’t like being compared to Nazis, maybe stop doing things that Nazis would do? Such as an ethnic cleansing?

          Idk, just an idea…

            • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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              You’re right, it’s more like a genocide. After all, they’re just bombing everything indiscriminately, starving people to death, blocking humanitarian aid and occupying illegally territories that don’t belong to them.

              Not to mention that they basically shot to kill everyone they find, be it an UN worker, a child or an US citizen protesting.

              But hey, god forbid we criticise what those bastards do, we wouldn’t like to be called antisemitic…

              Fuck Netanyahu, fuck his government and fuck everyone supporting what they are doing in Gaza.

              • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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                Criticism is fine. Fuck Bibi for sure and the war.

                You can criticize Israel’s policies just fine without descending into antisemitism. Many pro Palestinians don’t understand or don’t care about the difference. That means their advocacy descends into just hate for everything Israeli.

                If Israel really wanted to commit a genocide, bombed indiscriminately, or killed everyone on sight, there would be millions of dead today. Remember that armed militants from Gaza managed to kill more than 1000 Israelis in one day with mostly small arms.

                About 40 000 Gazans were killed during this war, that’s now 11 months old. Israel has a far stronger military and managed to destroy a large fraction of the buildings in Gaza. The number of deaths is low compared to the overall destruction and the power disparity. This is a war in a dense urban environment against an incredibly deeply entrenched enemy.

                The number of people who starved to death less than ten afaik, most of them had preexisting health conditions. There’s enough food getting in overall, but distribution inside Gaza is difficult.

                That said. This war should end. A two state solution like the Olmert offer is a viable path to end the occupation of the West Bank and achieve freedom for Palestinians.

                • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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                  3 months ago

                  I’m pretty sure that if we’re not seeing more deaths it is because the international community would have trouble trying to justify it. But not because Netanyahu doesn’t want it.

                  They abuse Palestinians in their jails, they kill children, they attack refugee camps… All because “Hamas was hiding there”. I’m sorry but no. There’s a limit to what you can do. And Israel is surpassing it by far. They are not only killing, they are razing cities, they are basically making Gaza uninhabitable and they are blocking humanitarian aid (when they’re not directly destroying it), so yeah, they are trying to starve people.

              • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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                3 months ago

                In Gaza there are only temporary evacuations of civilians from dangerous areas. This is not only legal but required under international humanitarian law.

                Gazans are not expelled from their land. Quite the opposite, they aren’t allowed to leave the Gaza strip, besides a small fraction.

            • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              Israel is a sham democracy floated by endless US weapons, don’t worry I hate the US too, and pretty much every other state is slightly lower in my shit list because they’re not actively exterminating people for their settlers right now

            • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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              Israel is a State, racism is towards people. The State of Israel doesn’t represent the opinion of all Jews, I’ve got no problem with Jews who don’t support the State of Israel, I’ve got a problem with Jews and anyone else who does.

              By your logic most of the world was racist towards Americans from 2016 to 2020.

              • ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place
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                It’s the rhetoric used by those who want to be seen as victims. They pretend that you associate the state with the totality of the people forming it. That way it’s easier to control the narrative. And if you look closely, it’s the same they are trying to do with the “Palestine=Hamas” bullshit.

                If you hate Israel, according to them, you hate the whole Jewish world. It’s easier that way to create the “with me or against me” rhetoric.

                • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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                  3 months ago

                  Yeah and clearly you assume that people do the former when they’re doing the latter, like in the OP

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              That’s like saying, “It’s fine to say that you just hate the government of Nazi Germany, but if that’s the only nation state you hate, it means you’re racist against Germans.” What?

              I hate every apartheid state with equal intensity, however, since South Africa ended their system of apartheid, that just leaves Israel. I suppose if Israel’s system of apartheid was ended first and South Africa’s remained, it would mean I was racist against white people or something. Funny how who I’m “racist” towards is entirely dependant on who’s doing apartheid.

              • oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
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                Das Gegenteil ist der Fall. Ich verfolge diesen Konflikt seit über 25 Jahren aktiv und habe eine Menge unterschiedlicher Perspektiven gesehen und gelesen.

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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      Hating a State doesn’t mean hating the people living under its rule or the people associated with its culture. Would you call me racist if I told you I hate the State of China for the genocides it’s committing?