One time my roommate (who worked at Amazon) did that and people were giggling over the words he chose, most of them were Pokemon iirc.

or even fully not fascist

I think part of our disagreement is that we seem to be operating on different definitions of “antifascist.”

And again, many indeed did advocate for freeing the slaves

And many of those who advocated for freeing the slaves did so “in principle” while in practice owning slaves themselves and setting up a system that perpetuated slavery.

My point is that not everyone who opposes kings is an antifascist. There’s lots of reasons why someone might oppose a king, for example, they hold a lot of power, and tend to hold on to that power, so if you want to seize that power, then you have to defeat them. In the same way the Nazis fought against colonial empires but it wasn’t out of opposition to colonialism, it was because they were in their way.

If the founding fathers had been acting out of a principled commitment to liberty and antifascism, then they would’ve freed the slaves. They did not.

In fact, they were very concerned about the idea of common people getting too much power and considered democracy to be “mob rule.” That’s why they set up things like the electoral college. After all, if the common people could do whatever they want, they might vote to free the slaves, or redistribute property or things like that. They (being wealthy themselves) were concerned with advancing and protecting their own positions before anything else.

Opposing a king because you want to replace him or opposing a king because he wants you to stop expanding into native territory and starting wars that he’ll have to pay for, those things are not antifascism. That’s just a monarch getting in your way.

Also worth noting that they had no reservations about accepting assistance from the French king, who was more of an absolute ruler than the British king, who shared power with parliament.

but that breaks nationalist brains.

It’s really funny you say that because I’ve made that exact point before regarding US conscripts in WWII (on an alt, admittedly).

States in general aren’t “antifa” and I never claimed any were, all I’ve really done is push back against your misinformation and glorification of actual, self-identified nationalist Chiang Kai-Shek.

That’s the best you’ve got?

Ghenghis Khan got rid of many monarchs. Antifascist king?

Ok but that’s worse. You get how that’s worse right?

If you’re going to do sophistry and rhetorical trickery like that, you generally don’t just come out and admit it.

They were never trying to actually argue the founding fathers were antifa.

Then their comment was irrelevant. That’s what the person I replied to said, so if they disagree with that position, they should’ve simply upvoted my refutation of it and moved on. But y’all are obsessed with infighting and attack anyone you suspect of being in the out-group at every opportunity.

excluding any state from the definition of antifascist.

No, I didn’t. I said that slaving colonial empires are not antifascist, that does not include all states.

The followup is the pointing out that China and Russia therefore are not antifascist.

Which is utterly irrelevant to what we were actually talking about.

You tried to handwave it but then got pushed into defending the American prison system because it’s better than chattel slavery.

“Defending” is liberal’s favorite word, it seems like. If you had straight up asked me, “is the American prison system better than chattel slavery” I would’ve said yes, without any of these games. I don’t consider “better than chattel slavery” to be “defending.”

I’m just confused what definition of fascism you’re going off of where the British parliament imposing a tax on tea is fascism but people of one race owning people of another race and forcing them to work though beatings and abuse isn’t.

But yes the real answer is that they were neither pro- or anti-fascist because fascism wasn’t a thing. In terms of history, I don’t really think we should label it fascism anytime someone does a bad thing. But if we are going to use it that way then we should do so consistently.

The strategy of “say stupid shit while signaling to the in group that you’re on their side” works very effectively if all you care about is upvotes.

“Look at the ratio 🤣🤣🤣 lol so what if you couldn’t back up anything, there’s more of us on this platform so the tankie got owned 🤣🤣🤣”

So, ignoring all the other stuff you got wrong and ignored and hyper focusing on a technicality, got it.

There is a significant difference from the systemic form of chattel slavery used in the US pre-civil war and the use of forced labor in prisons. Like at that point you might as well argue that PoC don’t have a particular claim to have been oppressed because white people go to prison sometimes which means that they’ve technically been enslaved too.

The Civil War still liberated a ton of people, even if the system that followed was far from perfect. Likewise, when the Russian and Chinese revolutions ended serfdom, it was a major step in the right direction - even though Western “leftists” will never forgive them for it.

This is a completely different position from what was originally being argued, which is the absolutely insane position of “The founding fathers were antifascist.” If you want to say, like, “The American Revolution did more good than harm” then sure, whatever, that has nothing to do with what I’m disputing here.

The Soviets and Maoists are also slaving empires. That’s just a historical fact, mister “read a book.”

Is that so? What’s your source that slavery was legal in the USSR and PRC? Let me guess, “I made it up.”

Like I said, I’m fine not calling them antifa.

The fact that you even suggested it is insanity.

Particularly the Maoists because let’s be real, they made the Kuomintang do all the work in WW2.

Lmao, would this be the KMT whose leader had to be kidnapped by his own guards because he kept trying to collaborate with the Japanese instead of fighting them?

Every single word that comes out of your mouth is an embarrassment. You are ignorant to the point of anti-intellectualism. You get things wrong left and right because you don’t even care about the facts, you just care about attacking me, over something completely irrelevant to what the discussion was about. I guess you’re probably just trying to farm meaningless internet points from people in your camp but if you think you’re actually presenting any sort of challenge to my beliefs, like I said, all you’re doing is embarrassing yourself, if anything, discrediting your own side with your ignorance.

Bruh you just said that slaving colonial empires are antifascist. I don’t give a shit what you think about “Stalinists” or Maoists, go read a book and educate yourself and stop talking nonsense before expecting anyone to take your opinion on anything at all seriously.

In which case, as I said, the founding fathers were fascists.

After all, lesser evil empires fighting fascists still earn the title of antifascist, do they not?

No, they absolutely do not. Wtf.

Lesser-evilist brainrot is now getting applied to history? Am I supposed to look at the Punic Wars or the Mongol invasion of China and label one side as fascist and the other side as antifa? Is this the point that discourse has reached now?

Christ, lesser-evilist ideology needs to have a stake driven through it’s heart yesterday. You fail history class forever.

“What are we, a bunch of Asians?”

…what?

Fascism as a movement didn’t exist then but if you do want to label people as fascists then the founding fathers, many of whom owned people of other races as “property” and built slavery into the system they created definitely qualify.

What’s wild about this is that people predicted AI would be used for nefarious purposes, but generally in the form of like, showing your opponents doing crimes. But here it’s being used to show their own side doing crimes while the other side is only made to look “cringy” or more like a stereotype.

It really speaks to the utter depravity of the US right that, given a machine that can generate any video of anything they could imagine, this is what they do. These people are utterly incompatible with any kind of free or even functional society, and I really don’t know what could ever be done fix them or their culture.