• naught@sh.itjust.works
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    4 months ago

    Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought

      • naught@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our “meat”. This isn’t even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          4 months ago

          I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.

          if you don’t wan to construct an argument that’s fine, but the socratic method isn’t terribly convincing for me and many others.

          • naught@sh.itjust.works
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            4 months ago

            You can’t appreciate a philosophical argument on a philosophical issue? I suppose that can be valid. It seems to me you don’t want to consider the ideas I have raised in good faith

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 months ago

              i’m willing to consider a fully formed argument. i’m not willing to be pestered by an endless interrogation.

          • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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            4 months ago

            There’s obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I’ve asked has told me they don’t like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.

              • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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                4 months ago

                We’re not simply talking about pain, though. I like the painful sensation from hot peppers, for example, but I wouldn’t ever wish to subject myself to the systematic violence and awful conditions that farmed animals face.

          • naught@sh.itjust.works
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            4 months ago

            Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 months ago

              Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering?

              i’m not saying it’s a moral good. i’m saying it’s amoral. as in it is neither good or bad in itself.

              • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                4 months ago

                We have agency over our actions and the ability to reduce the negative impacts we have on the world. We are unique in this ability, and we should exercise it

                  • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                    4 months ago

                    Would you kick a dog in the street? Shoot a cat with a bb gun? These are things that happen with frequency, but I wouldn’t do because I think that causing pain to another animal, senselessly, is a bad thing.

                    Would you raise a chicken in complete darkness for its whole life? Would you raise a cow in a suffocatingly small pen among its excrement? Impregnate a cow constantly and steal its babies away for meat so you can continue to milk it until it dies? Animals feel pain. They communicate, they suffer, they mourn.

                    If you can supply an argument that causing suffering of innocent animals is good/doesn’t matter, I’m all ears.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?

      i suppose that depends on circumstances.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?

      that’s bad. buying beans doesn’t fix it though.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.

      i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i’m always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.