Summary
Bernie Sanders criticizes the Democratic Party for neglecting the working class, leading to their recent election losses.
He highlights issues like economic inequality, job displacement, healthcare costs, and foreign policy as key concerns for the American people.
Sanders questions whether the Democratic leadership will address these issues or remain beholden to big money interests.
He’s 100% correct. This failure is a failure of the DNC to actually pay attention to what the voters want.
This election, like every failed election effort since 2000, was a referendum on the democratic party platform: neoliberal business as usual for the top 15% sprinkled with “we’re not Republicans”
“we’re not Republicans”
Trust us, we are different. Oh how specifically are we different? What a great question, is it not the best part of this nation to be able to ask such things. Anyway, as I was saying…
I hate how accurate this shit is
I hope Kamala is having tea and eggs Benedict with dick Cheney tomorrow morning
I don’t believe that it is. I believe that the problem lies in the fact that we’re not communicating effectively with the voting base. Her policies we’re not bad and effectively DID target the working class, for example child care and expanding taxes on the upper class. Her economic policies were strong and we would have seen benefits. However, none of this matters if this information isn’t getting to the voter base.
Conservatives are actively targeting Gen Z and nonpoliticals with absolutely bullshit lies - for example, staying that liberals are actually racist, that DEI is making things worse for people, and that our whole policy is based on insults and hatred. Of course, to anyone paying any attention, this is blatantly false…but to an outside viewer, whose struggling to make ends meet, who’s single and insular, whose constantly told that women have it rough (and nothing about how to deal with men’s problems) they find the conservative arguments start to gain roots.
We want to win next time? We need to talk to people. Tell them what being a man really means. That empathy, not control, is what a society like the US should be based on.
Harris went too far right in an attempt to court the Republican vote. She preached peace in Gaza but she campaigned with known war-hawk Liz Cheney and staunchly defended Israel. She said she’s going to stand up against big businesses and help the environment but she talked about having Republicans in her cabinets and not ban fracking. She campaigned on being tough on the border but expected immigrants to vote for her. She did a lot of stupid shit and no one wanted to pay attention because everyone was scared of criticizing her because of their fear of Trump. They literally ran on a “moderate” platform when campaigning against a far right fascist wanna-be dictator. This should have been a slam dunk victory for them.
Democrats need to get their head of their asses and actually have progressives run. Until then, all they will do is slide more and more to the right and disenfranchise more of their constituents who want their society to progress and not cater to the radicals.
This should have been a slam dunk victory for them
I mean, sure, if close to half of the country hadn’t become really, really shitty people with no morals.
It’s tough to win on points like you’re talking about when the core problem requires undoing a multi-decade cultural shift to having absolutely zero integrity and most of the 7 sins being core values
The only focused Democratic message for the past 8+ years has been, “We need to stop Trump,” which I agree with, but without Trump, I can’t think of a single, unified message. That’s not enough to get the general population fired up and excited to vote for Dems. One thing that made Obama so popular was he had specific goals and gave people hope.
Trump, in the meantime, has been feeding people all sorts of promises and hopes and dreams. They’re all terrible and full of shit, but that is a more powerful message than just, “We need to stop Harris.”
I’m also legitimately convinced that the average American person is just an asshole and likes other assholes. Trump is the most conceited, whiney, cry baby, know it all, jagoff and everybody knows it. He wears it like a medal. And people love it man. They just eat it up.
It’s just like Carlin said. The politicians come from us. Because they are us.
Trump is the most conceited, whiney, cry baby, know it all, jagoff and everybody knows it. He wears it like a medal. And people love it man. They just eat it up.
That’s the thing. I’m sick of the media painting this as a “they’re holding their noses and voting” thing. This dude doesn’t win despite his vulger rallies and his racist, sexist, homophobic, crazy, whiney, criminal, and arrogant behavior… He wins because of that shit.
I don’t know, I try to be a little more optimistic. over 250million eligible voters, only 70million voted for Trump. That’s less than a 1/3 and could be lower if you included the entire population. People will spend extra time to pursue things that will benefit them directly, there just needs to be better communication about the good things that will benefit them for their time, not the things to be fearful of because people will tune that out (as shown by the voter turnout).
Truth!
You know what does excite the dems though? And also the republicans?
Actual progressive policies……
As close as this election was, if Bernie betrayed the Democratic Party and ran as an independent in 2016, do you think he would have won
I do
Funny how none of that ever gets even close to reality though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It used to be maddening, now it’s just disappointing
He’s truly a rare breed. The first (and only) politician to get a sign in my yard once upon a time
Hi. Working tradesman. I still voted blue even when the 4 years under trump were mostly better for me than under Biden. Of course most likely coasting off of Obama’s era. But I got no relief under Biden. I pay $20k a year for my Healthcare and still have to pay thousands a year out of pocket for visits. My family in Ukraine is still unsure what’s going to happen in the next year. Many of brothers in my local are unemployed now during the hardest time to pay to live. We hear the record profits the corporations made and swindled the working class dry so we can eat yet there has been no relief. How did making 6 figures for a family of 5 turn into almost living pay check to pay check.
I’m ok with sacrifice if it means others get the help they need. But I don’t think anyone got the help they needed. We sacrificed for no benifit to anyone but the elite, and we are continuing to be ignored.
This is what Sanders is talking about. And I’m afraid of what Trump is going to do for many Americans. For my Ukrainian family back home. For my neighbor who is Taiwanese. But recently I’m more worried to keep food on the table for my kids. I don’t even care who won anymore. I have election and political fatigue. I did what was asked. I keep doing what everyone thinks is right. But I’m burning out.
This comment spoke to me. I’m in the trades as well. I vote blue because, its further left than I can get from the red party.
Best of luck. We will need it.
You’re likely eligible for your states Medicare subsidies. Democrats fixed the family glitch in 2022, so you’ll likely save thousands switching off your employer plan, even if you’re making low six figures.
Of course those subsidies expire in 2025, and there is a snowballs chance in hell of those getting renewed now.
Democrats did a lot of things to improve the lives of working class, at least as much as they could get pass the Republican house.
Their problem is messaging. They are terrible at communicating what they’re doing, and how it’s going to help. I mean part of that problem is the media (ie fox news) is allowed to lie and Dems try to tell the truth. The playing field is not really level.
Another headache is that everything dems do is means tested, so you’ve got to jump through a bunch of hoops to figure out if you’re even eligible for any new program. Even if the programs do give relief to people, it’s much harder to message on a complicated program with layers of bureaucracy rather than “everyone gets 3k per child no matter what.”
I’m in social work and this is huge. Trying to sign people up for these programs feels so invasive. I regularly apologize for the invasion of privacy and the implied judgement of these means-tested forms.
This is the legacy of the Clintons and those that followed them giving credit to the idea that you have to prove you’re deserving. Not only do means-tested programs have a negative psychological impact, they’re stupidly inefficient. They require lots of outside labor to make them even marginally effective.
The people who need them often barely have time/energy to take care of themselves, so you end up needing this whole extra layer of professionals to help them through the barrier. They all need grant it state funding of their own. All that money could be more efficiently distributed if the gates were gone, or even designed to be useable by the people who need them, in the circumstances they’re in.
I really wish the DNC would get a blowhard demagogue cult of personality lying piece of shit like Trump to be their figurehead and then just actually do good shit once in office. Like read the fucking room man, you’re playing to sound policy when the people are voting for bloviating dickheads. Just be one of those and then worry about doing the right thing. Quoth Trae Crowder a few years back: “Do you want to be right, or do you want to win?”
Bernie is correct for the 100th time. But is little too late now. Unless Dems are serious about tackling working class issues. I don’t see anything changing. Many people view the Dem party not for the average person anymore.
The party is done. I switched to being a Independent. The machine is too big to change from the outside, and those that are the inside are blind to what is happening to regular people that would result in voters not showing up or just voting for a Fascist.
Every path people have tried to reform the party or change course ends up dead end. I’m over it. I’m not doing the whole lesser evil shit anymore. I wish them the best because I don’t want Republicans to endlessly win. Until Dems choose to stand for something collectively, outside donor interests all the time. It will be a loop of them losing elections.
Do people mean anything other than commodity and gas prices when they say “working class issues?” I feel like abortion, healthcare, education, and student loans are also working class issues, but I take it that’s not what people mean.
Let’s start with the 70% or so of people that report living paycheck to paycheck[1] rather than claiming that the 'economy is doing fine. Let’s even acknowledge that inflation is making good and housing prohibitively expensive[2].
The things you mentioned are important. For people that are struggling to keep a roof over their heads though the issue of Healthcare or education tend to be less critical than keeping food on the table. We can’t keep saying the economy is doing fine while people keeping trying to tell us it isn’t.
[1] https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-paycheck-statistics-2024/
The supposed strong economy is based on the average, which is brought up by the ultra-wealthy and their dragon hoards. The median is still getting shit on. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I appreciate the sources and the rigor. But is it not the left that’s consistently pushing for a higher minimum wage? For exploring solutions like UBI or even just expanded social safety nets for the people who fall out the bottom?
The costs of healthcare continues to skyrocket, when we’re already paying twice what other nations are. Healthcare bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy. But is it not the left (sorry, I started the “is it not” thing, and I feel like I need to keep it going, ahem…) that’s been pushing universal healthcare? For transparency in hospital costs?
I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s accurate to say the DNC has “abandoned the working class.” The DNC’s never been able to communicate effectively (or perhaps they’ve just never been believed) when they try to explain that they haven’t abandoned the working class. And they’re not very good at fellating microphones.
You’re conflating the DNC with actual leftism.
Well yeah, but it’s not like they haven’t tried. I’ve certainly been frustrated watching the DNC try for decades to get some version of progressive policy passed only to succeed in the most compromised ways. But usually the reason is simply Americans. My office mate is certain that Jesus is coming back soon. What do you do with that?
Not talk to it.
Democrats passed the ACA without any Republican support. They should have passed MFA then. It was terrible and made my life much harder at the time. It’s better now, but barely. My wife has a low paying government job and her health insurance costs went up significantly more than her 2% raise. Both of us took cuts in net pay while food, property taxes and seemingly everything else went up. What have Dems done about housing, pay, taxes, food costs in the last term? Nothing. Oh, Biden got one drug to be cheaper. But I’m not a diabetic. Yet.
Didn’t have any student debt?
I only have an associate’s degree which was very affordable and I worked thru school but I guess I get to help pay for those who took on a lot more debt. If that had been on the table maybe I’d have gotten more education.
This is temporarily embarrassed millionaire rhetoric. This is the reason the DNC gets away with platforming milquetoast horseshit in the first place.
S’all about getting yours, eh?
Yes. UBI has been a leftist conversation point for the last few years. Overall though the Democratic Party is opposed [1]. Two years ago when asked if the democrats would step up efforts to help people in financial straights the response was an effective no [2]. If I remember correctly that was even a campaign promise from Joe Bidden, that nothing significant would change.
And despite that, when the democrat’s made promses when it comes time to follow through they have a hard time enacting their goals. I will grant that a big chunk of that is republican interference, but the democrats seem to be extremely hesitant to use the levers of power available to them to follow through. When one side is blatently, openly cheating, its folly to keep trying to play by old rules.
And please don’t get me wrong, nothing I’m saying should be taken as endorsement for the Republicans. I want to live in a world of rational debate and law. However, both sides have to agree to that for it to work. When one side wants to win at all costs the democrats can’t keep playing from the same old book forever.
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/10/us/politics/biden-economy-midterms.html
Agreed 100%.
If they did this, they would easily carry states with high populations of blue collar and union laborers. Stop paying lip service and actually do it.
States that have had major manufacturing centers in the late 20th century like the Rust Belt.
Like…Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
The Democratic party is just paying the price for ignoring blue collar middle class voters since the late 80s. They took those votes for granted, and they lost them over time. Just like after blue collar folks they then took the votes of minorities for granted…and now they’re losing those.
All they need to do is ask what they’ve done for these people lately…like in the past few decades. And when they came really answer that in any terms other than what they prevented the other guys from doing, they shouldn’t have to wonder why enthusiasm for their party’s candidates is at an all time low.
Literally ZERO people I know personally have actually liked and actively, enthusiastically supported any democratic presidential nominee since Obama. That’s twelve fucking years and zero candidates that got people excited and inspired. Most of my friends voted for these candidates, but nobody liked them.
Honestly, if it weren’t for the opposition being so unbearably awful, I’d almost be happy to see the Democratic party handed loss after loss until and unless they learn their lesson and stop taking their base for granted.
Man, if he’d form a populist left party and stop caucusing with the Dems, he might get a lot of enthusiastic support and candidates running locally soon
Yes please. Channeling my energy towards this future.
We could also do this ourselves, if we could find a way to organize it.
I’m sure with enough attention he’d acknowledge, and maybe support it.
It may sound silly but what’s the alternative?
I really think ranked choice voting is the answer here. It will open up the opportunity for third parties to actually gain traction.
Me too but how are we going to get that changed before the next election?
Before ranked choice voting we need at least one party to rally around with a candidate that focuses on popular issues. Once we have someone in office that will commit to those issues we can then talk about these kinds of changes.
A good place to start would be at the state level since states run their own elections. For that all I can suggest is to get more actively involved in local politics than you ever have before.
Of course, that’s assuming we have another election.
Never underestimate the obstruction from establishment Democrats at every level of government. We passed a bill authorizing statewide use of ranked preference voting in CA and our neoliberal democrat governor Gavin Newsom vetoed it. I generally support his policies but this one was a flat out “fuck you” to everyone alienated by the neoliberal business as usual party that runs our state.
The answer to obstruction at every level of government is to push back at every level of government then.
That means getting involved in local government. You. Me. Us. All of us. Starting now.
I’m nearly pissed off enough to try and run for local office myself now and I hope others also feel that drive.
Only reason I haven’t done it is because I’m a nobody retail worker with no money. I can’t afford to upend my life to go campaign. And I feel that a lot of other people are in a similar boat. But I also feel that the last hundred years of American politicians have been so far up their own asses that having a regular everyman in office like myself can’t possibly be worse.
We should be able to take out a business loan or something to run for office. But also we shouldn’t have to do that.
That’s a good question. I think we need a massive push towards it, from our local officials all the way to the top. Bernie may get onboard.
True but nothings going to happen until we both demand it and actually do something about it.
The time to be hopeful that one of the major parties has an awakening is over.
Absolutely. I think that the best path of action is to let our local politicians know clearly that this is the desire of their constituents, and push hard to vote in candidates that support this. All of these politicians started somewhere, so the best hope for change starts locally and grows from there as word gets out.
Definitely need to change our voting system. I really like Veritasium’s recentish video on voting systems. Sounds like approval voting is even better than ranked choice. Anything but first-past-the-post, please!
We must only support candidates whose main policy position is electoral reform.
A third party, eh? Nah, he needs to take over the Democratic Party once and for all.
He had momentum, the DNC, also run by our oligarchs denied him of the opportunity.
Not for long
Bernie kicks ass like a kung fu fighter
Dems lost this election Bernie is still kicking and just won his seat back easy peasy
Dude is an old motherfucker but kind of in the same way Samuel L Jackson is a bad motherfucker
No let it die.
No there needs to be a place for “moderates” and embarrassed former-republicans to gather. The actual left can mobilize around Sanders and the current Republican party can die.
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“Will the big money interests and well-paid consultants who control the Democratic Party learn any real lessons from this disastrous campaign? Will they understand the pain and political alienation that tens of millions of Americans are experiencing? Do they have any ideas as to how we can take on the increasingly powerful Oligarchy, which has so much economic power?” Sanders asked.
”Probably not”
Bernie has been the Cassandra of the Democratic Party for decades. They need to realize that it has gone too far. The insane wealth gap, which has surpassed pre-Revolution France at this point, combined with the unaffordability of everything has created a crisis that won’t be fixed by platitudes and vague promises.
People are desperate, afraid, and angry. Changing that to hope and enthusiasm requires real plans that average voters can understand and even more than that requires correctly showing people the source of the problem.
Being beholden to billionaires is the real problem. And all their money, advertising, polling, and other bullshit didn’t do a damn thing to help Harris. Take them on the way FDR did or give the country to republicans permanently.
The insane wealth gap, which has surpassed pre-Revolution France
Let that sink in
The DNC needs to allow voters to elect who they actually want during the primary. We were force fed Hillary because the DNC didn’t want Bernie. We didn’t even have a primary because we were force fed Biden, then given Harris because Biden was so unelectable. The DNC must allow democratic process to take place so that voters elect the presidential candidate that they want.
Democratic party aside, Bernie couldn’t get the votes. I actually think the news media has been a much much bigger problem with someone like Bernie getting power. They always try to paint someone like him as being radical, when anywhere else in the world he would be a normal person on the left.
The issue with Bernie is that everyone knows he’s a socialist. If there was someone else who presented the same ideas Bernie has while also saying “I’m totally not like Bernie” people would actually vote for that candidate. Most Americans are closeted socialists, they’ll in favor of socialist policies as long as you don’t call it socialism.
they’re too busy sanewashing totally normal ideas like seperating children from parents, tariffs on every import, and mass deportation. Totally rational positions squarely in the overton window.
What will they say about the concentration camps those immigrants are rounded up into? What will they say about the military being deployed to round up residents? I guess we’ll find out.
Taxing billionaires though, how radical
I have a feeling that that might change after this election. There’s a real sense among liberal media (that I engage with) that a loss of this magnitude needs to be answered by a pretty substantial break with the status quo.
I’ll believe it when I see it, there is too much money to be made by selling division and overblown narratives.
The DNC is too old and too set in its ways. They’re like a bad police force- unreformable.
The only way forward for the DNC is to visibly jettison their old guard and hope enough voters give them another shot- which is also a maybe at best. Losers lose.
we don’t do that anymore, having “democratic” in party name is enough. be prepared to have liz cheney as nominee with ben shapiro as her running mate in 2028.
Did Hilary not get more votes from the public than Bernie?
God fucking dammit he should have been the fucking president in 2016. Fuck this timeline.
Gore should have been the president in 2000
Spoiler alert: They will remain beholden to big money interests and continue to lose. God damn it.
The what party? America still has more than one political party?
Edit: I don’t mean ‘both parties are the same, you knuckleheads.’ I mean there won’t be a Democratic party by the next election. There won’t be any parties but the Republican party.
All I can do is hope that you’re wrong
Oh don’t worry! That’s what the checks and balances is for. There will always be a check to the executive branch. Sure the executive branch is Republican but the Senate won’t be-… Well wait okay it is but at least the house-… Well alright they’ll have the executive branch, the house, and the Senate, but the judicial branch is still going to be able to-… Well at the very least two of them are about to retire and will be replaced with ppl hand picked by president so th-…
Well at least the ice cream machines at McDonald’s can be fixed independently now… That’s something right?
Not to rain on your (already overwhelmingly underwhelming) parade, but how long do you think the progress made on Right to Repair will last?
Ain’t that something
50/50 on that one. It’s just as likely they keep an opposition party to keep up appearances as many dictators do and have sham elections.
Kind of a distinction without a difference when it comes down to how anything works though.
If we’re talking about a distinction without a difference then we can admit that America is a one-party state that only pretends to be a two-party system.
No, sorry, I can’t admit that Hillary Clinton would have picked the same sort of SCOTUS justices that Trump picked, the ones that did things like end legal abortion nationwide.
I also can’t admit that Trump would have appointed Lena Khan to any sort of powerful economic position.
And I certainly can’t admit that Republicans had an infrastructure program considering they had four years to come up with one and never did.
Edit: If you want to say that the U.S. has two major political parties, one is center-right and the other is far right, I won’t disagree. But that’s a different issue.
But you have to admit that RBG didn’t step down during Obama’s term, that they let Republicans keep Merrick Garland out of the SC and gave them that seat, that they didn’t put Roe v. Wade into law during any of the chances they had to do so.
Admit that they were excited about Cheney and Bush’s kids giving an endorsement and never even bothered putting Sanders on stage at a campaign rally.
Admit that their presidential candidate underperformed the abortion-legalizing state ballot measures in every state that had one.
See my edit:
Edit: If you want to say that the U.S. has two major political parties, one is center-right and the other is far right, I won’t disagree. But that’s a different issue.
You telling me what I need to admit has nothing to do with your initial claim that it has only pretended to be a two party system. Do not move the goalposts.
What goalposts?
America has a capitalist monoparty that only pretends to be two parties so as to maintain the illusion of choice.
That was already the case, remember when Harris was excited to get Republican endorsements and promised to put one on her cabinet?
It’s sad people keep trying to use these against her
Right?
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Revisionism. Just last week you assured me that she was going to win, and that the republican party would collapse on itself. Hang on to your ego.
Yeah, I didn’t think the Dems could screw it up regardless of how badly they’re cosplaying right-wing nutjobs from 2004.
Either Americans oppose genocide more than I hoped, or they’re more bigoted than I feared. Dunno whether I’m too cynical or not cynical enough.
I wonder why Bernie and other progressives don’t band together and announce their own party. With enough big names (especially Bernie) they could gather enough attention to be a viable third party that actually represents progressive and more left leaning ideas than the democrats. They have two years until the next local elections to get their foot on the race, I think they could get done traction if they actually go for that
Because they understand the spoiler effect.
The Democrats have been spoiling elections plenty on their own
We already lost. The time is now to work on something new. Tuesday and the 60 days before it were shut up and vote. Today and the next 3.5 years are shout and organize.
Bernie is not nearly as popular as most on the internet echo chambers would have you believe.
The fact is this is now a money game. Grass roots campaings and parties are more disadvantaged than ever at being able to get their voice out to people, especially ones that arent perptually over connected to the internet and forums.
In terms of grassroots support, he’s been very effective. This map is from 2020 when there was an actual primary but it does paint the picture pretty well:
Source of graph (it’s paywalled but I found the image directly in the search results and copied it lol)
Bernie purposefully did not do that because he did not want to be seen as another Ralph Nader. He believed working inside the system would do more good than doing a dirty break. I also wish he went in the direction of a break from the democratic party, but that’s just not who he is.
Sigh I was the same way but now I see that people just won’t get out out to keep evil men at bay. I had hoped we can stick with the dems until the GOP is not a threat and then make our break.
If we made a progressive party now I wonder how many dire hard dems will join?
Unfortunately I would think very few would care. For example, the Green party is very progressive, and comes with a TON of advantages electorally. They’re on the ballot in almost every state, run in local and national elections, and have a system all set up for nominating people, etc. When you look at the Green party’s platform, it’s very close to what the progressives claim to actually want. Yet most democrats just shit on them at every opportunity instead of voting for the platform they ostensibly believe in.
To be fair, most people only know Jill Stein. And a suspected Russian agent who thinks Wi-Fi causes cancer is not the best foot to put forward
While I personally do like Stein, I agree that others would be better. Stein didn’t even want to run, but the Green Party loses all the electoral benefits I mentioned if they DON’T run. Stein basically recruited Cornell West to run for the Green Party nomination, and there was a time when it looked like he would be the nominee. However, he dropped out because he didn’t want to do the campaigning work within the party to become the nominee. If he had actually been serious about running, he could have clinched it and I think would have gotten a ton more traction. From what I’ve heard, it seemed like he was scared to gain too much traction and potentially be a real spoiler. When he left the Green Party, someone had to run to preserve their electoral benefits, so Stein stepped in.
I’ve voted for the Green Party in past elections and will agree with this.
there is the democratic socialists of america that have a handful of elected officials, oddly not including bernie. it seems like they’re more of a sub party or organization within the dems though, not their own party
There is a lot of “invisible” work that party orgs do. If you want to see why big names and attention alone don’t work, look at the Green Party. They have name recognition, ballot access and even get a bit of the vote each presidential election. What they’re missing is the “ground game” that gives the presence in nearly every race in every precinct, and the local engagement to actually win an appreciable chunk of elections every year (not just the presidential years).
Nah i dont think yall are willing to do it. 2028 you’ll be holding your nose again voting for an out of touch moderate to oppose trumps third term instead of giving a progressive you completely agree with any kind of chance.
I’ll be able to vote in a primary next time
Theres no primaries anymore. The wealthy party leaders decide the nominees.
There’s never been real primaries.
You dont think Obama in 2008 was a real primary? His campaign fought hard for that nomination, it definitely wasn’t handed to them.
Yep, that was the last real one. Since then the establishment didn’t want to lose control of the process, so they setup the primaries.
Real primaries would be open, plenty of candidates.
Oh, haha-ah, you sweet summer child. Sure you will, after all but two candidates drop out of the race and give their hard-won delegates to the conservative candidate in exchange for cabinet positions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
–I kid, with the condescension, because this is what happened before many of us got a chance to vote in the primaries in 2020 -A primary that Kamala Harris dropped out of because she was deeply unpopular.
Hrc was deeply unpopular. Biden was. Obama ran on personality and empty promises. He showed her was all too willing to sell himself when he first distanced himself from Rev. Weight, then moved his church membership. Phyrric victory, for him and everyone else.
He’s partially right.
Unfortunately, I think the bigger issue is that a majority of Americans are fascists or indifferent to fascism.
“But are there not many fascists in your country?"
"There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the times comes.”
majority of Americans are fascists or indifferent to fascism.
I’m not convinced of that at all. Here’s what I see:
A large portion of ignorant uneducated and easily manipulatable people who don’t even know what fascism is.
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Large groups of religious people who focus on voting red because Christianity, their churches, pastors, and religious groups, and the abortion issue.
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Actual bigots. There’s a lot of them and they like the racism, anti gay, nationalism, deportation stuff. Want women subjugated.
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Bullies, tough guys, “alpha male”, and the “get money” crowd. There’s a lot here too, and many in poor young black and Hispanic groups in addition to a lot of white males. Not necessarily bigots, but generally want women subjugated whether they know it or not (sex objects).
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The large group of just vote red without thinking because it’s what family and friend circles do and always have.
The above I think don’t understand fascism at all. Not educated or informed enough.
Edit: I would say to be “indifferent to fascism” you have to actually understand what it is, and I don’t think much of the maga crowd does. My opinion/speculation.
Yeah I also don’t agree. You honestly have to discard a lot of public information to force yourself into this level of ignorance. For nine years he’s told us he’s a proud piece of shit. If they didn’t listen for that long that’s on them.
Is it really so hard to believe that’s exactly how millions upon millions of people go about living their lives?
Yes, that does seem completely insane to people like you and me who don’t tolerate that level of willful ignorance in ourselves, but to someone else that’s all just noise that they tune out.
Ever heard the phrase, “Hell is other people“? I’m slowly starting to believe this existence is a punishment.
I didn’t say it’s hard to believe. It’s hard to stomach it, is my point. Yeah hell really is other people. After this, I now fully believe that most Americans wouldn’t piss on me to put out a fire.
We will always be known as a shameful group of probable idiots as a country, and we also will be known as happily setting the first huge fascist domino up then slapping it down carelessly. Autocrats around the world just got a blueprint that will work if they take advantage of idiots properly. We fucked the world, not just ourselves.
Existence is a blessing, and the lessons are hard, we just can’t cheat our way to the next level or graduation. We have fallen for the drive through mentality and that’s false hope and not laying change.
Your existence might be a blessing, but I live in constant pain with genetic diseases that I couldn’t prevent and can do very little about. The cost of healthcare has nearly bankrupted me multiple times, and Trump being elected again is most definitely not going to improve any of this for me.
My dear friend, I also have physical, genetic and financial challenges. The Democratic party did zero to alleviate any of them. I could, and in the past did, wallow in self-pity and I sometimes catch myself headed there again. Everyone has their own challenges, affording is opportunities to grow, stretch and develop. The election is a new challenge, an opportunity to free ourselves from “the devil we know.” We can seek new solutions, or go back to old ones forgotten by history. We can organize and demand again affordable living, job safety, living-wage, 40 hour a week jobs, equitability. People fought and died to give us these things and we pissed them away by being complacent, voting blue “one more election.” Roosevelt didn’t embrace the New Deal because it was the right thing to do, he did because it was politically expedient, and may have feared literally heads rolling. While I, we all prefer comfort and stability, peace and tranquility, domestically if not abroad, we’ve grown complacent and cowed. This is our “dangerous opportunity” to get back what was lost, and perhaps more. If we fail to do that, we will face more consequences of our actions and our instrument inaction.
Fwiw, I’m supposed to be on about 20 meds, several considered absolutely necessary. I’m on none, largely due to financial constraints. I’ve found alternatives for Manny, the rest turned out to be oversell. Diet and exercise can heal a lot. Herbs can heal more, but do proper research and mind contraindicate. Perhaps exercise isn’t doable for you. Seek alternatives and please join me in working for change.
Completely disagree, a person doesn’t have to understand what fascism is to be a fascist or indifferent to fascism, any more than they need to be an expert on dogs to not kick or oppose kicking one.
Actually I changed my mind and disagree with my other comment LOL.
I still find it hard to call an extremely ignorant uneducated person a fascist, who is being manipulated by an actual fascist leader. They’re just potentially being manipulated. The dumber they are, the easier to manipulate.
Some or even many of these people conceivably would change their stances and choices if provided with lots of education. Some.
Ignorance ultimately doesn’t excuse or justify their actions. Your beliefs aren’t as important as your actions. Not to say that they should be dragged behind the shed and shot, but that actions have consequences and they need to be held accountable for theirs. If somebody votes for a fascist leader and supports a fascist political party, they’re at least collaborators in fascism.
You have to treat these people like they’re in a cult, because that’s what’s happening here. Trump’s rhetoric this past year has been eerily similar to Jim Jones near the time that they all drank the Flavor-Aid (almost identical, even). And when dealing with cultists, it’s important to remember that not all of them can be saved. After a certain point, even if they recognize that they’re in the wrong, most cultists will double down rather than admit that they were wrong - because they’re in too deep and to admit that they were fooled would be to admit that their entire life has been wrong and that what they did wasn’t justified.
Hope that you can make them realize why they’re in the wrong, but be prepared to grab the knife that they might pull on you. Because that’s probably the more likely scenario.
A mage once said that in mistaking poison for wine, the mistake doesn’t forgive and save your life. Bad paraphrase.
Kindly, I disagree again lol.
Indifferent:
Having no particular interest or concern; apathetic
I still argue you need to understand it to be indifferent about it specifically. However, I do believe these people are indifferent to having a desire to learn what fascism actually is and actual historical contexts.
But we can agree to disagree 😀
Edit: oops “to be a fascist” yes I’ll agree with you on that one sorry. They can be fascists without actually knowing that they are and how to define it.
Did you completely miss this:
"There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the times comes.”
The abortion issue is part of fascism. It creates a lower unequal class out of women.
I’d say most of the maga base don’t know this though. Complete ignorance. Just “libs kill babies” is their thought process.
I have a hard time thinking that someone who is dumb and manipulatable by a fascist, is actually a fascist themselves. They’re just dumb and easy to manipulate.
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Yeah, just like the republicans. Its the part of all this leftist shaming on here never addressed. I voted democrat because they were the lesser of two evils. At no time did I think they were going fix whats broken.
If you don’t want to be crying again in 2028, start working now.
Some of us never quit. It’s just annoying that everytime you bring up legit concerns its met with people defending the status quo. 2016 the status quo was drug to the town square and hung. I don’t care if you pulled it down marionette it around, it’s 2024 and a knife was stabbed through the heart of this country. Democrats still have the helm and they will do nothing, they will let it bleed out. All the power of the american government and they cannot weird it despite a lifetime working in it.
If democrats were even going to consider change they would spend their political capital, NOW. Since it is all gone come January.
Say I’m wrong and they can keep playing political footsy with NAZIs till the end of time, why, why, why, would anyone want that???
The problem with status quo defense is that the status quo gets progressively (couldn’t help myself) worse the more time goes on.
The status quo has changed before. Civil rights did happen. The problem now is progress has reached the upper echelons of power and the scared white boys don’t want to give it up. It won’t be long before most realize power won’t being given without force.
