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The article about the invasion on Poland wasn’t any better.
The NYT published the proclamation of Hitler verbatim without criticizing it, and reported the German lie that Poland attacked first as fact.
Berlin, Friday, Sept. 1–Charging that Germany had been attacked, Chancellor Hitler at 5:11 o’clock this morning issued a proclamation to the army declaring that from now on force will be met with force and calling on the armed forces “to fulfill their duty to the end.”
The text of the proclamation reads:
*"To the defense forces:
The Polish nation refused my efforts for a peaceful regulation of neighborly relations; instead it has appealed to weapons. Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier. In order to put an end to this frantic activity no other means is left to me now than to meet force with force. German defense forces will carry on the battle for the honor of the living rights of the re- awakened German people with firm determination. I expect every German soldier, in view of the great tradition of eternal German soldiery, to do his duty until the end. Remember always in all situations you are the representatives of National Socialist Greater Germany! Long live our people and our Reich!Berlin, Sept. 1, 1939. Adolf Hitler"*
The commander-in-chief of the air force issued a decree effective immediately prohibiting the passage of any airplanes over German territory excepting those of the Reich air force or the government. This morning the naval authorities ordered all German mercantile ships in the Baltic Sea not to run to Danzig or Polish ports. Anti-air raid defenses were mobilized throughout the country early this morning. A formal declaration of war against Poland had not yet been declared up to 8 o’clock [3 A.M. New York time] this morning and the question of whether the two countries are in a state of active belligerency is still open.
Reichstag Will Meet Today Foreign correspondents at an official conference at the Reich Press Ministry at 8:30 o’clock [3:30 A.M. New York time] were told that they would receive every opportunity to facilitate the transmission of dispatches. Wireless stations have been instructed to speed up communications and the Ministry is installing additional batteries of telephones. The Reichstag has been summoned to meet at 10 o’clock [5 A.M. New York time] to receive a more formal declaration from Herr Hitler. The Hitler army order is interpreted as providing, for the time being, armed defense of the German frontiers against aggression. The action is also suspected of forcing international diplomatic action. The Germans announced that foreigners remain in Polish territory at their own risk. Flying over Polish territory as well as the maritime areas is forbidden by the German authorities and any violators will be shot down. When Herr Hitler made his announcement Berlin’s streets were still deserted except for the conventional early traffic, and there were no outward signs that the nation was finding itself in the first stages of war. The government area was completely deserted, and the two guards doing sentry duty in front of the Chancellery remained their usual mute symbol of authority. It was only when official placards containing the orders to the populace began to appear on the billboards that early workers became aware of the situation.
Border Clashes Increase Berlin, Friday, Sept. 1–An increasing number of border incidents involving shooting and mutual Polish-German casualties are reported by the German press and radio. The most serious is reported from Gleiwitz, a German city on the line where the southwestern portion of Poland meets the Reich. At 8 P.M., according to the semi-official news agency, a group of Polish insurrectionists forced an entrance into the Gleiwitz radio station, overpowering the watchmen and beating and generally mishandling the attendants. The Gleiwitz station was relaying a Breslau station’s program, which was broken off by the Poles. They proceeded to broadcast a prepared proclamation, partly in Polish and partly in German, announcing themselves as “the Polish Volunteer Corps of Upper Silesia speaking from the Polish station in Gleiwitz.” The city, they alleged, was in Polish hands. Gleiwitz’s surprised radio listeners notified the police, who halted the broadcast and exchanged fire with the insurrectionists, killing one and capturing the rest. The police are said to have discovered that the attackers were assisted by regular Polish troops. The Gleiwitz incident is alleged here to have been the signal “for a general attack by Polish franctireurs on German territory.” Two other points–Pitsachen, near Kreuzburg, and Hochlinden, northeast of Ratibor, both in the same vicinity as Gleiwitz, were the scenes of violations of the German boundary, it is claimed, with fighting at both places still under way.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0901.html
Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier.
It’s so crazy to see most of the israeli propaganda literally being straight out of the Nazi playbook.
And Russians about Ukraine… we live in interesting times indeed
Exactly my thoughts. You could copy that speech from the beginning, replace every instance of Germany/Germans with Russia/Russians, replace Poland with Ukraine, and you’ll have milions of people nodding as saying: “Yes, that makes sense, defend Russia!”
It’s propaganda because it works. Unfortunately. Because now these are just known manipulation tactics proven to work. And we still don’t really have a way to fight them—except that one old fashioned way and, hey, Nazis can get killed as far as I’m concerned.
This is because there is no fundamental difference between the two. Only the windows dressing is different.
Add the NKVD too.
So, you’re saying the NYT hasn’t changed much?
Liberal media aided fascists in the past and continue to aid fascists and authoritarian now.
I think peoples view that the increasingly partisan media has political aims is causing them to forget these are companies.
They are making money (or trying) and they will say or do whatever furthers that aim. They are not out for the public good, they can’t be.
If you want proof just look at CNN and their waffling in the last 10 years as they try to both sides shit so as to not lose increasingly shrinking cable news subscribers.
It’s fascinating that when I’ve called out NYT for promoting invasions for the US and Israel, and whitewashing racist actions by both, I’m called a Russian bot who hates facts and reality and need to go back to Russia or whatever the thought terminating cliche of the time was.
When I use the same NYT as proof for anything bad “The Good Guy In Office” does (Drone strikes, blocking labor, illegal occupations), they’re bought out soulless corporate media and we should never trust a single thing they have ever said.
The NYT published the proclamation of Hitler verbatim without criticizing it
Yes that is how journalism works. It is a report not the op-ed you seem to want it to be. If you want to be told how to feel, as opposed to reports, don’t look to journalism.
The main job of the news is to decide what to publish.
The NYT made the decision to simply re-publish what Hitler and the German press had to say about the attack, 6 years after Hitler had abolished democracy and any free press in Germany, and after Germany had illegally annexed the Sudetenland.
Don’t forget, Germany had the right to defend itself.
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I agree completely that Hezbollah makes up a huge problem, and after their involvement in Syria there’s not a hint of legitimacy left in the organization if there ever was any.
But one would do well that to remember their origins: They are what’s left of the resistance from the last time Israel invaded Lebanon. So that’s what a great fucking success that was.
And Hezbollah are not Lebanon. They control territory, and they need to be fought, but this in not how one fights terrorist organizations. This is how you create terrorist organizations. Which is exactly what Israel did the last time they invaded.
but that’s the point, it keeps their surrounding neighbors destabilized
Uh… Israel was and still is committing genocide. And before that it was Apartheid and slower genocide. Setting aside the idea of refugees and how Lebanon is next after Gaza and the West Bank, every country in the world has a duty under international law to stop genocide and other crimes against humanity. The fact that Israel is committing genocide is, in and of itself, is a casus belli. This is the exact same thing the Allies get praised for in WWII. Also you’re phrasing it like Israel wasn’t responding each of these rockets with a lot more rockets, but even if we ignore all that: Israel made the conscious decision to escalate the conflict with Hezbollah with the pager attack and subsequent airstrikes.
The fact that Israel is committing genocide is, in and of itself, is a casus belli. This is the exact same thing the Allies get praised for in WWII.
No, unfortunately not really. The extent of the Holocaust was not uncovered until the Allies moved into Germany and took the concentration camps. Britain was at war due to their guarantee of Polish sovereignty, the US was at war due to Pearl Harbor, and Germany declaring war on them a few days later. Nobody went into WW2 to stop a genocide. China and the USSR were at war due to being invaded.
While some credit is given to stopping the Holocaust, certainly, that was largely a side effect of simply winning WW2.
While some credit is given to stopping the Holocaust, certainly, that was largely a side effect of simply winning WW2.
Yeah, I know. My phrasing was bad. I meant they’re being praised for fighting Germany and stopping thr Holocaust, not that they entered WWII to stop the Holocaust. I was trying to point out the ridiculousness of criticizing a country trying to stop genocide happening close to it.
Which one? Clearly anything Hamas does is justified retaliation, so Israel is retaliating enough just there won’t be significant retaliation.
Clearly anything Hamas does is justified retaliation
No? They definitely weren’t justified in raping and killing civilians in October 7th. However, as an oppressed and occupied people, they have a permanent casus belli against Israel until the latter starts taking serious steps towards peace, so the act of attacking Israel on October 7th (remember that 66% of the dead were military or security targets; they didn’t just kill some civilians and leave) itself is a legitimate act of resistance.
Which one? Clearly anything Hamas does is justified retaliation
im pretty sure internationally recognized terrorism isn’t considered to be justified or retaliation, but it’s the middle east, so that’s something that sort of just, happens sometimes. That would probably explain why israel is reacting so violently.
China and the USSR were at war due to being invaded.
the chinese leg of the conflict is particularly goofy.
China had two, or three parties at one point, all fighting for control over the country. There was the communist party (backed by the soviets) There was the democratic party (backed by the US) and then there was also japan doing it’s thing trying to take over china as well.
Prior to this there was the russo japanese war, which was an equally big shitpost, the russians having been fucking broiled by the japanese over it, though a different story.
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Uh… Did you not hear of that one Lancet study about how it’s likely for every documented death there are 5 undocumented deaths? Do you understand how the Gazan healthcare system has already collapsed and they’re unable to count the dead? Even just taking the current 41k and multiplying them by 5 gives 205 thousand, or more than 10% of Gaza’s population. All of Gaza is in famine, with North Gaza faring the worst, and Israel still refuses to let aid in. How do you call 10% of the population (already more than all Hamas members) dying anything other than a genocide?
How do you call 10% of the population (already more than all Hamas members) dying anything other than a genocide?
uh, simple. The definition of genocide as defined in the dictionary is an “ethnic cleansing” and if we assume this to be the “correct” definition, for the sake of argumentative purpose here.
It must follow, as defined that if the conflict were to stop, that israel would stop killing Palestinians. Since this has been going on for like 80 years or something, it’s hard to say, but i think it’s probably fair to say that israel would stop killing people if they came to a peace agreement.
However, this changes a little bit if we pull into the definition of genocide as defined by the UN or something, which is a lot more broad, likely due to legal deliberation, this is extremely common. Now i don’t know of any ruling from the ICC the ICJ, or the UN that classifies this as a “genocide” though i know the ICJ has said that this could very well be genocide. And that the ICC has pushed a warrant containing multiple war crimes for netanyahu.
Though to be fair, i haven’t read into anything the UN has said on this conflict specifically, so i could be mistaken there just due to sheer ignorance lol.
I know numerous “countries” have claimed as such, but i believe that very few have specifically stated as such, there has been a lot of public outcry, and im sure a number of politicians against this. But to my knowledge, only south africa has stated that this “is a genocide” however accurate that quote is, though to be fair again, i don’t know much about this one either.
I mean take a look at South Africa’s case. They have evidence of genocidal acts (causing significant harm to an ethnic group) and genocidal intent (the countless quotes from high ranking Israeli officials calling for genocide). It’s genocide; it’s just that the case is taking a while.
yeah, and if we take a look at south africas case, it’s not “genocide” it appears that it has reasonable extent to be genocide. Which are two different things.
You’re doing guilty until proven innocent here, which, is weird. Even weirder, when i see people calling for the literal denazification of israel.
As far as the two requirements go here, those are two very broad, and not very specific statements, genocidal acts is incredibly broad, so broad in fact that the vast majority of things that would apply, are probably not genocide. Intent is a lot clearer, but then you also have to consider military and governmental intent, rather than just personal statements. Civil intent is also a big problem here as well. I’m not convinced that the majority of israel literally wants to ethnically cleanse palestinians. Or that the governmental figures do to begin with, albeit they aren’t doing themselves a favor when they say super sus shit like that either.
Though this is also the middle east, and from my knowledge, this kind of death toll and fighting is not unusual? They tend to have very aggressive opinions on this stuff for some reason.
so in summary here, you’ve basically said, well, it sort of looks like a duck, and the sound it makes is vaugely similar to a duck, so this weird silhouette behind the sheet here must be a duck, there is no possible alternative in this situation.
Also. wouldn’t it follow, that if the evidence were SO telling in this case, that this legal case would probably be over a little bit quicker than it seems to be taking right now? It’s weird that we’re even deliberating on the verdict before it’s happened, and it’s even weirder that you seem to be 100% confident about it, even though im assuming you have basically the same knowledge level that i do on it.
Maybe i’m wrong, and you’ve written a PHD dissertation on conflict in the middle east, and have extensively studied israel and it’s history, but i’m going to go out on a limb here and say since you’re yelling at me on lemmy, you probably haven’t.
Notice how im not 100% confident on the statements i make? Even though i’d be pretty willing to bet money on this, i’m still not going to authoritatively state it either. It’s not really that hard to just, not be so aggressive about something this vile.
Can’t be a genocide, if it’s not effective amirite? /s
I guess we shouldn’t have intervened in the whole Yugoslavia thing then, I mean, clearly we have to wait until like 40% of the ethnic minority is dead!
what are the statistics for ethnic deaths here anyway? How far up the chain have we gotten?
I mean we’re looking at at least 10%. That’s… Uh… A lot, to say the least.
i mean, up to 10% is quite a bit. That’s still 90% of the population existing though, so i’m not sure that’s to the levels of genocide, as defined by uh, genocide. Which would be ethnic cleansing.
If we’re going by existing figures, that’s like what, 2.5% of the population. I feel like famines have probably killed more people, and that war has most definitely contributed more deaths to this as well.
And the paper attacks were targeted mostly at civilians and Healthcare workers. Who use those things the most.
Also that ploy would have taken YEARS to prepare for, given the logistics involved in making the shell companies and finding out how to make sure the bulk of those devices ended up in Lebanon. Meaning nothing that happened in October 2023 had anything to do with that ploy.
Just like how israel bombed Gaza for 20 years straight and then Hamas a performed a limited ground operation.
I’m sorry, but “limited ground operation” is the same type of shadowy bullshit language as calling the genocide in Gaza a “strategic operation”.
That’s the point.
Shoot, you’re right. I’ve seen so many stupid takes in this conflict it has made me dumb.
Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
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I admit, I thought I was in a different thread.
Lebanese have the right to defend themselves, and Palestinians.
The iron dome is defense. Actively bombing outside of ones borders, in my opinion, is fucked up, no matter what “side.” It’s like all these country’s leaders are acting off PTSD responses and escalating more and more, no one attempting to deescalate. Idk what the answer is, honestly.
My ridiculous attempt to make light of the situation is to childishly wish Mr. Rogers were still alive to help us all get through this.
you know, bomber Harris famously said: “The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation.”
but to the IDF? this is no mere delusion, they do have a guarantee that they won’t be bombed, because they have the iron dome, they can do what they want.
so I’ll pass on the notion that iron dome being “defensive” somehow stops its existence from emboldening the vile actions of the literal terrorist Regime that is the current Israeli government (yes, several top ministers of the Israeli government are internationally wanted terrorists, only taken off said lists because they became part of an official government)
but to the IDF? this is no mere delusion, they do have a guarantee that they won’t be bombed, because they have the iron dome, they can do what they want.
the iron dome is literally not a guarantee that you can’t be bombed, i think the iron dome has had a 90% effectiveness thus far, but don’t quote me on it.
And besides, if you destroy the anti air, like we did in operation sandstorm, you can’t exactly stop it.
Or better yet, pull a hopeless diamond and simply fly stealth bombers over. (assuming that works of course)
if you want to argue that they don’t have these capabilities, sure, that’s literally how asymmetrical warfare works though.
The iron dome didn’t protect them on October 7th. It didn’t protect them completely today. I have friends that grew up there with the reality of seeking out bomb shelters constantly. Without, they’d be glassed by now. I agree they probably feel emboldened, but not without good reason. Should we compare surrounding regimes on the amount of internationally recognized terrorists in positions of dictatorship? At least Israeli citizens have some level of recourse if they’re dissatisfied. I think all individuals deserve the same level of self determination, along with Palestinians, Iranians, etc.
I know there’s nuance in how Israel and the US have played roles actively discouraging or even overthrowing democratic regimes, but I want to be careful not to take accountability away from each individual that has contributed to the suffering of innocent people. Abuse always has precursors.
No, actually, occupiers have no right to defend themselves.
I agree on the premise that occupation is not a defensive strategy. The degree to how fucked up it is in comparison to actively bombing depends. The food, water, and informative (shutting down access to Internet) blockades are horrific, on par with bombing imo. The casualties in Gaza are inexcusable.
Trust me, we have common grounds of disgust here. I don’t believe we can expect to see a path toward peace if we can’t demonstrate healthy conflict management ourselves, though. Israel has been established and deserves self determination without constant threat of external anhilitation as much as any of their neighboring countries. Palestine needs to be formally recognized, as well.
“Nazis weren’t so bad”
I’m reading this wrong, correct? I have had intoxicating agents.
holy shit this entire fucking thread is brain dead dude.
Im pretty sure the V2 literally didn’t exist before they invaded poland. I’m 95% sure that’s the joke here.
Iean ya failed history of you think these things are even remotely similar
Hezbollah has been launching rockets daily. Hardly the same as a false flag fire
Why is the first part of October missing data?
The strikes began on the 8th, but no casualties. That’s when the data for the chart begins
The next day, Hezbollah fired at Israel in response to Israel killing 3 Hezbollah members from bombardment of Southern Lebanon
The Lebanese armed group Hezbollah has fired a barrage of rockets into Israel after at least three of its members were killed during an Israeli bombardment of southern Lebanon amid soaring tensions on Israel’s northern border.
Previous strikes in October were in retaliation to assassination
Before the assassination,
Until recently, the border had been relatively quiet. Occasional rockets or drones crossed from Lebanon into Israel without leading to serious escalation, while Israel violated Lebanese airspace more than 22,000 times from 2007 to 2022.
Are you attempting to justify genocide?
I see you’re not even trying to deny that Hezbollah has, indeed, been firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel nearly every day.
But you’re right, the situation IS exactly the same! You know, as long as you ignore those pesky things like facts.
Why in the fuck are you defending imperialism and genocide?
If the equivalent punishment for a pin-prick is a beheading, then maybe you have a case.
beheading? What the fuck happened in the twelve hours since this was first reported on. I’m so confused.
I see you’re not even trying to deny that Hezbollah has, indeed, been firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel nearly every day.
I mean Israel was doing exactly the same thing. Literally the same thing. Their “targeted” airstrikes aren’t any better than what Hezbollah does.
Oh, you have me all wrong, friend.
I don’t deny that Hezbollah has fired rockets indiscriminately into Israel every single day. If I had rockets and someone was genociding my people, I’d fire them.
I just don’t deny that Israel has been conducting a full genocide of the people of Gaza, using the war as an excuse.
Only, one is a little worse. Innit?
hezbollah is related to palestine now? Or have they killed like 10000 Lebanese people already?
The modern shit show between the brothers, Isaac and Ishmael, started in 1882. It’s about time for the insane family blood feud to end.
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Well Germany is slipping into fascism with the AFD too.
Is AFD pro-Israel?
You have basically two sites. One loves the fact that Arabs and Jews kill each other and want the war to continue. They support ending German aid to Palestine and so forth. The other wants to end US warmongering in the region, caused by US support of Islamic terrorist in attacking Israel. Yes I did not mix that up, the US according to some in the AFD Biden supports Hamas.
But afaik they support continuing aid to Israel. That ensures the greatest suffering inflicted on the greatest number of muslims
OK, I wasn’t sure about German politics and thought that maybe AFD is not so bad, if they are against the establishment and so on.
Now I’m sure they are the same shit, just boiled.
They are not against the Establishment. They are the German Trump-Party.
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you’re getting your political information/opinion from a social media thread??
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no, they’re really that bad. They wanted to sink ships with immigrants, they demanded a “180° turn in our rememberance-culture about the third Reich”
You’ve got an Israeli flag near your nickname, so my algorithm of getting such yields better results than yours apparently. They are not worth it, find an Artsakh flag.
No, not just from that, but I’m not comfortable with Germany as a whole. Pretty cannibalistic opinions come from Germans on the Web sometimes, I don’t like German fashion and manner of discussion, being part Jewish - they often support most shameful things to me, being part Armenian - they often think that decency can be replaced with Israel worship.
And a few German politicians I’d like to see hanged.
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Thanks for this. I have a German friend that can’t talk about this without whining about how it’s upsetting and oh the jewish people in Germany are reminded of the holocaust and they’re afraid now and Hamas aren’t perfect victims and nobody is allowed to protest because protests are antisemitic so we just have to let Israel flatten Palestine and continue their apartheid with our tax dollars. And oh man I don’t really know anything about it but I still disagree with you and my perfect english is suddenly not good enough to explain my non position because everyone just wants to be right.
I stopped talking to that German friend, but I’d like to know how to get past that brick wall if we ever do talk again.
Israels support of Hamas is a pretty good starting point. That one pretty clearly shows, how the Israeli government continues that situation.
The other one is looking at the situation from an Israeli perspective. Iran is the most open anti Israel country right now. A lot of other countries in the region, do not like Iran either and are somewhat willing to work together with Israel. That is Saudi Arabia for example. The issue is that the situation in Palestine is preventing that alliance from forming. So a deal with the Palestinians gives Israel greater security in the region as well. If done right that would only mean the northern border to Lebanon and Syria is challenged.
Well I already tried the first thing and he didn’t believe me.
That’s an interesting perspective though, I’ll have to think on that. Thanks!
so…
you believe a random internet comment more than your “friend”?
you’re ridiculing him for not being able to explain his position in his non-native language and you’re accusing him of “just wants to be right”
I honestly think it’s better if you don’t talk to him again.
Anyways, there’s a rise in antisemitic crimes, there’s a lot of antisemitic rethoric during these protests and they’re covertly used to spread anti-semitic, pro-iranian talking-points. Your friend is right.
I recommend these two: https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/117974-000-A/das-system-hamas/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84gsvAKzxbg&pp=ygULc3RyZyBmIGlyYW4%3D
provided you’re actually interested in the topic and dont “just wants to be right”
I’ll be sure to let you know when I start taking advice from lemmy on my personal relationships.
He was using “everyone just wants to be right” as an excuse to shut down. His very weak rationalizations to not take a stance yet reject any advocacy for the humanity of palestinians were very transparent and I found it both disgusting and insulting. He would claim he didn’t know enough, to not know “what does Hamas even want”, but told me he’d have to see my sources on everything I tried to explain to him. Especially when I told him about Israel’s lies of sexual violence that occurred October 7th (which was his main talking point, “you don’t rape people”. Well, there’s not a shred of evidence that they did) and then threatened to mute our chat for sending these sources without reading or viewing them because they were “too long” or cited a tweet at some point, and I assume he did mute me but idk cause that’s where things ended.
I understand that antisemitism is rising. That is happening everywhere. You also have the AFD on the rise (which he denied). That can hardly be blamed on Palestinian activists. If anything, Israel is to blame for manufacturing the situation. Fascists co-opting the movement because they want to see both sides destroy each other is hardly any reason to continue funding Israel as they wage a genocidal war, nor is it one to shut down any democratic process on the matter. They are poisoning the discourse and you are playing right into it.
And no, I refuse to accept your framing that anything Iran does is automatically bad, antisemitic, or out of proportion to the situation. Israel is no more righteous in this than they are and is actively provoking a regional conflict with weapons that we are providing.
Most European far right parties are backed by israel
2021 - Far-Right Parties in Europe Have Become Zionism’s Greatest Backers
Last year, Yair Netanyahu, son of former Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, became the literal poster boy for the German right-wing party Alternative für Deutschland (AfD).
Netanyahu’s eldest son had provoked controversy when he called for the abolition of the “evil” European Union, which, he argued, was an enemy to Israel and “all European Christian countries.”
Far-right support for Israel is not unique to Germany but is developing across Europe. Alongside the AfD’s Alice Weidel, far-right leaders like Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, Marine Le Pen in France, Nigel Farage in the UK, and Viktor Orbán in Hungary have all openly sided with Israel.
Oh. So the intersections between Russia and Israel are even bigger than I thought.
Frankly IMHO Russia, Turkey, Azerbaijan and Israel are in fact a system (maybe even a de-facto alliance) allowing them to be “in different blocks”, but work for the same interest. It’s not very well hidden though, Israel wouldn’t have fuel, steel and textile without Turkey, Turkey would be the main target of justified hate and freedom fighters on ME without Israel, Azerbaijan would quickly find its forgotten place without Russia, Russia wouldn’t entertain its corridors and logistics ambitions without Azerbaijan (and also power projection via its hands but with western military tech), Turkey wouldn’t have leverage on western countries without Russia, and Russia would have less power to stir shit up without Turkey.
A bit similar to how Armenia and Georgia are sort of a micro-system, where together they won’t be immediately eaten by countries from the previous list. But with them it’s clearly visible - if Azeris\Turks\Russians press Armenia down enough, they don’t need Georgia, if they press Georgia down enough, they don’t need Armenia. Both are very close to happening and would mean the end of both countries, unless somebody intervenes militarily, which is unlikely.
Israel always plays all sides and will happily destroy their “allies” to install leaders which are loyal to them.
Israel said to be the source of intel Trump gave to Russians
It’s also the reason why israel never openly sent weapons to Ukraine and withheld from condemning Russia at the UN (there are reports of israel being pressured into secretly sending weapons to Ukraine by the US)
If America starts falling as a superpower israel will gladly switch sides and volunteer as a military base for Russia or China. Backstabbing their allies is a timeless israeli classic.
I don’t think they’ll drop the relationship with USA ever. They already have the kind of relations with Russia, China, India that any other country would get punished for. They just have too many spies and blackmailed politicians in there. It won’t ever be weak enough to stop being valuable.
But I think the moment Israel loses the protection of nuclear superpowers, it’s done.
Well, it is obviously a special military operation to denazify and demilitarise the terrorist militia of other country, because it threatens peace and security. /s
Seriously, isn’t this like called a war declaration or something? If you bomb another country and move in troops and kill civilians?
There wasn’t much declarations of war since ww2. Even the US was only technically at war when Panama declared war on them after the US invaded them. Ukraine isn’t technically at war with Russia, they actually do business together transferring gas to Europe. The world is strange.
The US formally declared war on Iraq and Afghanistan. That’s what an AUMF is.
Yeah well there’s no accounting for them being too dumb to remember they passed the War Powers Act specifically to prevent the President from conducting war without a declaration. And that they specifically voted for the AUMFs as designated by the War Powers Act.
It’s literally the vehicle by which they exercise that constitutional power. Of course they would then have to admit they declared official war on the concept of terrorism.
The first paragraph makes that pretty clear, but they added two more just to make it crystal clear.
It is the purpose of this chapter to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.
Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.
Click here for the actual text of the law.
Edit - I just went ahead and added them. I am so tired of this purely semantic argument meant to make the US look worse than it is.
That’s kinda the point. There are no “Afghanistan” or “Iraq” in AUMF and it was used to wage wars unrelated to 9/11.
So AQ didn’t fly the planes?
I don’t get what this question is about.
Ah youre talking about what hamas and hezbola have been doing.
Yep, actually I am as well. War crimes can be committed by both sides.
Funny. I don’t remember Poland firing ballistic missiles into Germany before the invasion.
But this is definitely the same thing as Germany invading Poland /s
I don’t think anyone is making the point that it’s literally the exact same thing.
But what we’re witnessing is that Israel can bomb a civilian population to rubble for months and months, and all the intensional community can stutter out is that they “have a right to defend themselves”.
Now they are bombing a foreign capital and sending in ground troops to their neighbouring country to fight off a militia that they themselves are responsible for creating by invading in the past, and we know exactly what the chorus will be. Right to defend themselves.
We will see our Lebanese friends and their families murdered, all for Israel’s right to defend themselves.
In Germany, the line was that they would stop at Poland. People make up different excuses for different atrocities.
I think a lot of people are rightfully fucking tired of excuses, and that’s the point. Not that it’s literally the same thing.
That’s literally the entire post. Gaslight harder
Hezbolla is not Lebanon or its government. It’s not a declaration of war if the country (its official government) isn’t objecting to the entry
That’s an interesting take. I think you should ideally be invited before your military march into a foreign country and start bombing in order to claim it’s not an invasion. It’s not one of those things you can assume you have permission to do until the country you’re invading starts fighting back.
Lebanon is not Hezbolla. But the bombs are falling in Lebanon, and it is Lebanese civilians that are being killed and displaced. They are invading Lebanon,.
That Lebanon hardly has a government to speak of and is doing awfully already does not mean you can just rightfully bomb it. What the fuck.
Lebanon has a government and an army that is not Hezbollah. They do not want Hezbollah’s presence in Lebanon either. Which is why you do not hear the Lebanese government denouncing or opposing Israel’s actions. You don’t see them going to the UN or the US telling them to stop Israel.
Just because you don’t approve of their government and response doesn’t mean you can just dismiss it.
Lebanon doesn’t mind Israel bombing the Capital, flattening multiple residential buildings with 2000lbs bombs killing hundreds of civilians (over a thousand over the past few weeks), followed by a ground invasion? What an insane take.
Like it or not, Hezbollah is a significant portion of the Lebanon Parliament, and runs many social services including hospitals. It’s not just militants.
Israeli airstrikes have killed more than 1,000 people in Lebanon over the last two weeks, according to Lebanon’s Health Ministry. The U.N. says around 1 million people — nearly a fifth of the country — have been displaced from their homes while fleeing this bombardment.
“This is not an incursion, this is an invasion,” Najat Aoun Saliba, a Lebanese member of parliament, told NPR. “We’ve been invaded by another country and we have to call on the international community to call it as such.”
Lebanon’s government urges international community for support amid Israel’s invasion
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Yes they are. Look at the post. They are quite literally (in the words true meaning) making that point.
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man some of these comments are so hard to understand.
You can’t fight against a militia that you created? So you can’t do war at all now? Russia can’t invade countries like Switzerland and Finland due to them having a lot of military presence?
The US can’t fight russia if they decide to invade the US since the US arguably had some influence over the death of the USSR being a superpower at the time of the coldwar.
Who cares if they in part created that millitia, it should only matter if one side wants to aggress the otherside, otherwise all bets are off. If both sides want to sit there and engage in military posturing, they’re free to do so, if one wants to aggress the other, they’re free to do so.
I see people saying that lebanon, and palestine are allowed to defend themselves, and i don’t think anybody disagrees, but it implies that you either think neither of these countries have a capable military force, or that israel is somehow not allowed to defend itself? Which either means you think israel is the aggressor in every instance here, all the way back to the founding of israel, which seems like an odd position to hold because that would be theoretically easy to fact check. Or that israel shouldn’t do anything in response to getting attacked because they have a bigger stronger military or something?
can you fill me in on what im missing here?
They created this militia by invading and mobilising resistance. Now they are doing the exact same thing. The only way I can see them exterminating Hezbolla this way is if they extend their genocide to Lebanon, and are successful at it. If not, all they achieve is to fill the next generations with hate just as they have done in the past.
If Israel backed off, recognized Palestine and Palestinian territory, ended illegal settlements and began complying with international law, sent Netanyahu to the Hague, apologized, recognized the equal human rights of Arabs, and promised to help rebuild infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank and to help Palestine gain safety of water and electricity independent of Israel, and then committed to this agenda, they would achieve peace in a heartbeat.
But that’s unreasonable, right? But what exactly about it is unreasonable? Complying with international law? Recognizing Arabs as humans?
This would be the only way Israel could, in fact, defend itself. In fact, simply stopping the genocide would probably go a long way. But that’s still unthinkable for Netanyahu.
This notion of defence by bombing everyone around you is not sustainable when you need to defend yourself because everyone around you hates you. This is not the wars of the 19th century. Netanyahu is doing absolutely nothing to make Israel safer.
And worse still, he knows that. He never wanted to make Israel safe. Removing people is the point, no matter the cost. His project is to clean the land of Arabs. No matter the cost.
They created this militia by invading and mobilising resistance. Now they are doing the exact same thing. The only way I can see them exterminating Hezbolla this way is if they extend their genocide to Lebanon, and are successful at it. If not, all they achieve is to fill the next generations with hate just as they have done in the past.
and what else do you want them to do? Time travel to uncreate the militia so it doesn’t exist? I mean theoretically they could come to some sort of peace agreement, but who knows how well that would go. The other option is that israel does a little bit more trolling here. OR simply does nothing at all and lets hezbollah steam roll them.
Considering that we’re in the middle of a military conflict, and that neither side of any party seems content with peace, i think we can probably leave that one on the table here.
If Israel backed off, recognized Palestine and Palestinian territory, ended illegal settlements and began complying with international law, sent Netanyahu to the Hague, apologized, recognized the equal human rights of Arabs, and promised to help rebuild infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank and to help Palestine gain safety of water and electricity independent of Israel, and then committed to this agenda, they would achieve peace in a heartbeat.
that’s a very real possibility, but this is literally going to be like 10 years of reparations here. It’s hard to say how stable the political climate is going to be between this. It’s also worth noting that this is nothing short of doing literally everything that israel can to get good graces from the arab world. Which even if it’s reasonable, still leaves a lot of room up for interpretation on whether or not it was “satisfactory”
But that’s unreasonable, right? But what exactly about it is unreasonable? Complying with international law? Recognizing Arabs as humans?
i think it’s unreasonable given the current context, complying with international law, and recognizing arabs as humans is something that i agree with, but i don’t think that israel literally wants to genocide arabs. From everything i’ve seen this conflict is about as expected as far as a middle eastern conflict goes, arabs are clearly more than willing to put themselves into this position. Repeatedly even. So if that’s what they want to do, i’m not going to stop them from doing it. Just as i’m not going to stop israel from fighting in this conflict either.
I think given 20 years and the end of this conflict currently as we know it, it might be reasonable. Depends on future conflicts and geopolitical relationships.
This notion of defence by bombing everyone around you is not sustainable when you need to defend yourself because everyone around you hates you. This is not the wars of the 19th century. Netanyahu is doing absolutely nothing to make Israel safer.
i don’t fundamentally disagree, but i don’t know if you really have any other options here. As you said, everyone around you hates you.
And worse still, he knows that. He never wanted to make Israel safe. Removing people is the point, no matter the cost. His project is to clean the land of Arabs. No matter the cost.
again i’m not really convinced that this is literally an ethnic cleansing, the Palestinians could at least do themselves a favor by not doing a terrorism to start the conflict in the first place. It would probably be beneficial if iran wasn’t a significant support line for hamas as well. There are so many points throughout history, where literally anything could’ve happened that stopped this conflict. None of them went anywhere.
note to the mods: given the amount of evidence, and the weight of the claim, i have no significant reason to believe that this is an ethnic cleansing or genocide. I could be wrong, but i’m not the UN ICC or ICJ so i have no say in the matter.
The NY Times had no problem calling it an invasion when Ukraine did it to Russia (also after years of being bombed by Russia).
Then that would have been a better comparison, wouldnt it? But they are comparing it to the NAZIS!
I don’t have the energy to explain why this is wrong on every single kneejerk post on this site. But safe to say it’s not applicable with even the slightest thought of the subjects in question.
Jews where kicked out of their homeland by force, by both Christians and Muslims. Muslims hated jews a long time before this conflict arose. Much like the nazis did, but in their case its a religious schism more than a racial one.
For all the love and understanding that the Muslim community spouts, they wont even accept palestinians as refugees. A Palestinian refugee spoke about their treatment by both hamas and Egypt on Swedish national news saying “we have never been as poorly treated as we were by the Egyptian authorities”
That’s not the reality of the origins of Zionism, you are conflating Zionism with Judaism, which are 2 very different things. Christian nations have been far more antisemitic historically than Muslim nations. Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized (see 29:01) by Zionism during its history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Good Books on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Nice infodump. But it doesnt answer why other islamic countries treat Palestinian refugees like means to an end.
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Nice deflection there, kamrat.
That’s much more related to Neo-colonialism and US dominance in the region. Client States of the US will support US interests, which includes Israel’s interests
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_policy_in_the_Middle_East
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they’re not white though, they’re Slavic/Ukrainian.
in fact, this is why we refer to that part of europe as “eastern europe” even though, there’s no significant distinction.
It’s not the quite same thing. Ukraine immediately shouted “Russia is invading us and trying to push through to Kiev!” Both the lebanese caretaker government and Hezbollah are saying that there is no permanent Israeli army presence on Lebanese ground. Israel claims to have sent soldiers into Lebanon, but no one on the Lebanese side is confirming that.
This is about Ukraine invading Kursk, not the one where Russia invaded Ukraine. I picked this one specifically because Ukraine is also a US client state that is somehow treated differently when it comes to how it’s reported on and what they’re allowed to do with military aid.
and what they’re allowed to do with military aid.
to be clear, israel receives US military aid as well.
That’s probably why palestine isn’t as much of a concern. They’re just two different conflicts here. We’ve been a pseudo ally with ukraine since the dissolution of the USSR, and so has europe more broadly, we all have stuff to lose there.
The same is also probably true for israel, though to different extents, and likely very different reasons. I couldn’t tell you much about it though.
if you look at it from this perspective, it’s perfectly and wholly consistent.
That’s a very condensed version of Ukrainian history since 1990 lol
yeah forgive me for not including the entire historical context behind ukraine, eastern europe, russia, the bolsheviks and the soviet union, it’s collapse, the peace deal, and the breaking of the peace deal, and the nukes that were involved somewhere along the way.
My mistake for not including the entire unabridged history of ukraine in a post about military aid and why this behavior is wholly consistent from a perspective of military support. (that’s not even about ukraine)
Oh my bad, I misread it. My point that Lebanon says nothing major is going on on the ground still stands though.
Just got to love that you get downvoted for staying stating something THIS obvious. People think these rockets are toys or outright forget they exist.
It almost makes you wonder why they would send rockets into the illegally occupied West Bank.
Oh well, I’m sure its just because they’re racist against Jewish people and the event happened in a vaccume.
Yes, that is what they are. Absolutely. They wish all the Jews were dead. That is what they learn from childhood on. Hamas even had that in their constitution(!) until recently.
That does not mean that things happen in a vacuum, it is a hate spiral that neither side alone can stop and working together is something both sides do not want. What a terrible situation.
TIL that if you hate your neighbors for killing and stealing the land of your compatriots, you’re racist. As I allude to, they have a very legitimate reason to hate Israel but it gets dismissed as just being racist against all Jews, without a hint of irony.
They can’t work together because one side wants to break international law and the other side tries to resist them. They would be happy to work together. Its just that you won’t get hamas or hezbollah working with Israel on how to illegally steal and colonise land from their neighbours. That would be silly.
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You’re right. In this analogy Germany entered Poland 40 years ago and there was no WWII to make them cut out their bullshit.
Yes 🙄 Lemmy is so fucked in this regard.
*you don’t remember Poland sending rockets into illegally occupied Poland before the invasion.
Fixed that for you
Imagine defending Imperialism and genocide
Imagine comparing this conflict to the nazis
Not hard to
Let’s take a complex situation, make it worse, set it on fire, then spray the fire with gasoline from a fire hose. What’s the worst that could happen?
American media being more pro-Israel than mainstream Israeli media is continuously baffling
“Erm akshurally, the correct term for sending troops into another country without concent is invasion. However, when its one of the Good Guy Countries™ its called self-defense and promoting international law. If you disagree then you clearly hate freedom and democracy, you’re also a Russian bot” -☝️🤓
I can’t believe they would allow blatant antisemitism on this website, how could you
Ikr, clearly I need to be locked away for thought crimes. How else are we supposed to protect freedom?
God damn that is like word for word how every time I have lightly called out an invasion from the US/Israel. I’m some people see this shit besides me.
The West controls this narrative theough media, propaganda and social media. The constant fucking Isreal dick sucking is finally being noticed by a few.
Can israel just chill for once and can we stop giving them any help
That’s anti semitism /s
Unfortunately there are too many fascists and too many Christian fanatics who believe that Israel and the wars it is doing are necessary for the rapture to happen.
Yet another reason religion is a scourge.
Funny they believe they can make their God come back to destroy the little project He/She/They/It created so the most sniveling, back stabbing, and sanctimonious 1% can go a special place of wonder, happiness, and peace in the universe.
And then those 1% would destroy that place as well.
That’s the best fucking response I heard to that in a long time. I wish I could upvote more than once.
Rapture but I guess it’s a rupture potentially as well.
With the upcoming US election, Bibi knows no one will take action, least it upsets the AIPAC.
So he is using this period as a window of opportunity to do this shit.
It’s this meme all over again but this time it’s Israel vs. Russia.
would’ve been a different story is Ukrainians were sufficiently brown
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Quickly, turn on propaganda, turn on Soloviev!
Zionists have written that none of their surrounding countries are ‘nations’ in a legal sense and thus their land is free for the taking… by them exclusively. No fucking joke. I want to post my source later.
These people are worse than the Nazis.
Please post the source when you can. I’d love to share it with my holdout relatives who still think Isreal can’t be “that bad”.
It’s just the “empty land” myth that all genocidal colonizers have used as a pretext updated for modern times.
I have no idea how any of them can call it an empty land when there have been people continuously living there since the goddamn stone age! I mean Lebanon has had extensive trade with Greece and Egypt even during the Bronze age. What the FUCK are these people even talking about? Even Palestine is much older than that.
There was a site called Masada 2000 that had some of the most brazen bullshit hasbara you’ve ever heard to the extent that they claimed that there was no such thing as a Palestinian before 1967 (as bullshitted by Golda Meir, the removed) or that the word Palestine did not exist until 1917. They cite no sources because it is such a brazen lie.
And we expect the biggest wepon exporter to stop it! The world is probably doomed.
Equating Ukraine to Hezbollah? Sickening
Mindlessly sucking Bibi’s dick? Sickening.
The last time we heard this they flattened Gaza.
Racist fuck
I’m really sick of hearing Americans of all people, and Westerners in general trying to moralize about invasions and war.
Oh yeah you’re right my bad, millions should suffer to fulfil this one guy’s ego for sure
Tu quoque fallacy
Like that Westerner who set himself on fire over Gaza, talk about virtue signaling! /s
wait until you hear about how the middle east handles war
“Annexes”?
