Back on reddit I remember getting downvoted a lot for that time I suggested a guy referring to women as “females” was a red flag. Glad I’m not alone in thinking that.
“It is unfair how I am treated,” he said, “the moment I see a female and say ‘hello there female’ they always leave after saying something. I don’t know what they said because I wasn’t listening but they are being very rude.”
“I don’t understand what it is that makes women seem uncomfortable around me… likely they are just intimidated to be in the presence of a real alpha man like me. I don’t blame them for that.”
I know you’re joking but that last paragraph made me throw up in my mouth a little bit
It’s not really a joke, that’s just two paragraphs from the article copy/pasted.
of a real alpha male like me
Any wedding where the bride is allowed to speak, and wear clothes, is doomed to fail.
Brunt…FCA
You just read that in his voice
hyoomahn feeemales
Kinda got one built-in.
Wait, where’s the part where he calls a woman a *fat whore who can keep chasing Chad but she better not come crying to him when she turns 30 and hits the wall?
*about 75% of this is just a reworded comment I saw today on an article about dating in my city.
Hey… Young bucks gotta cope!
Why r u so insensetive?
Clinical nomenclature has a place but social interactions aint it
I will never understand the drama over the word “female”.
I set up a doctor’s appointment the other day, and I was asked if I had a doctor preference. I responded and said “I’d prefer a female doctor.” According to the internet, apparently I should have asked for a “woman doctor”.
Reversing the gender, I’d be asking for either a “male doctor” or a “man doctor”. I will literally never use the phrase “I’d prefer a man doctor, please.” Because it has weird connotations, and doesn’t even roll off the tongue as well.
So because I believe in male/female equality, I am necessarily required to treat them the same, with similar varieties of words.
So what’s the problem? Give me a reason why I should use the less technical versions of words that invoke social-gender-stereotypes when I want to avoid all of that entirely.
You’ve been told (probably at length) what women in general prefer to be called. It’s probably even been explained to you. Your feigning ignorance about why is just saying that you don’t find those answers satisfactory.
You’re free to call women “females” and you can justify it however you want, just like I’m free to allow absolutely zero people who refer to me as “female” (outside of very limited clinical circumstances) to touch my tits.
You do you, and you may have any preferences to words you like and people who are allowed to touch your tits.
I’m personally out of the loop on the entire “female debate”. Please do not assume everyone in the world knows everything about it perfectly well. (I’m not original commenter though, can’t comment on that).
Do women find this term objectifying, like a female animal seen in biology primarily from a reproductive side or something? Does it feel like you’re not treated as a deep and complex human and minimized to a sex object?
That’s what I can probably come up with as a first thought.
Personally, I just use terms “male” and “female” where they normally traditionally fit within the language, and I use them for both men and women. I have never seen males reacting negatively to be called that, but I’ve seen many females triggered, which is curious to me.
Maybe women are responding “triggered” because you sound like a fucking dick?
“I refer to women in a demeaning and shitty way. In a way that makes them seem like they are below me. And they tend to be so triggered by it. Hmmm so curious. 🧐”
Does that not trigger something in your tiny brain? Do you not think “Hmmm… Maybe they don’t like it. I should stop doing it as to not be a piece of shit.”
OR you enjoy it when are a bully and enjoy it when people get upset at you for being shitty to them.
So it’s either you have the intelligence of a tennis ball, or you’re a fucking dick.
You should reflect on that.
Nah, you (and apparently a shitton of people who disliked the previous comment into oblivion) made a lot of assumptions about me, and the only reason I’m having this tone is exactly in response to such aggressive actions.
I must assume this is due to the use of the words “curious” and “females” in the last sentence - first means I actually am curious to why is that and what stands behind it and want to better understand people, and second I had to use in contrast to males to demonstrate the similar situation causing two different reactions.
I am genuinely out of the loop, and it’s just recently that I found a lot of opposition to the use of the word “female”. I want to know what is standing behind that, as I didn’t see the same reaction to the word “male”, which is constantly used, even once, nor do I personally see any problem with it as a male.
I want people to stop assuming everyone is trying to hurt them and go on a full on crusade against people who are genuinely curious on what’s behind it or are unknowingly doing something offensive.
Instead, I get yet another attack. If you are truly enlightened on the source of such reactions, I’d rather have you explain it to me, so I would know more on why is it exactly such a problem, and how massive it is.
Referencing my tiny brain or my character isn’t gonna cut it, and by that you’ll keep people out of the loop and radicalized by such an attitude, which commonly leads to the effect opposite to what you’re trying to have.
I will not suddenly change my understanding of the situation by people yelling and downvoting. I can come at the issue with empathy if people could explain the situation.
I truly want to build bridges here and get to the bottom of the issue that started the conflict around the word in the first place.
I’m not reading all of that. Stop being a baby and listen to people when they say they don’t like you calling them something. I very much doubt this is the first time you were asked to not use the word “female” when talking to a woman.
If you’re not signing some important document or in a medical setting, don’t talk to women and use the word female on them. It makes you sound like a demeaning dick.
“I just don’t understand why females do this” “Please stop calling us females. It makes it sound like we are less than men. Just call us women.” “Oh okay, no problem.”
Tadaaa. Problem fixed. Not that big of a deal.
“I’m not reading all of that”
Could have stopped there. Ignorance is bliss, huh? Allows you to rage on someone who literally explained they didn’t mean any offensive behavior and were genuinely asking.
But you do you, even if you rage first and read later.
You’re incredibly patient. I commend you, really.
No idea what’s going on as well, by the way.
Thanks :)
Would you say ‘women doctor’ in this scenario?
Weird of you to continue the argument at this point really
It was a genuine question. I have no argument here. I don’t know the best term in this situation.
If people prefer “women doctor” then call them “women doctor”.
U speaking for the people now?
I actually say “lady doctor.” Because I do prefer a doctor who is a woman and “lady doctor” sounds fancy.
E: Last male doctor I had told me that it was “just” an ovarian cyst and it “shouldn’t hurt that much” so I should take some aspirin and I’d be able to work tomorrow. So yeah. Lady doctor for me.
I actually say “lady doctor.”
But what if you are in country where aristocracy doesn’t exist?
I do exist in such a country! But I was recently called “quirky” so I guess take my advice as you will.
You’re just choosing to be outraged for the sake of drama. I’m sorry if one person in your past has called you a “female” offensively, but lets consider moving on from it.
It’s just a word. It’s not a slur.
The word “woman” is not any better, and even has its own issues with preconceptions. Every time you come across someone who is trying to be stereotypically traditional and enforce any idea of classic societal gender roles, they refer to themselves as a MAN or a WOMAN.
Because I generally interact with people who are uncomfortable being assigned traditional gender roles, it’s more comfortable to think of them as their biological sex–male or female, so that I am not projecting gender stereotypes on them
Now why don’t you chill out?
Oh fuck off. You know damn well it sounds like you think women are below you when you use “female” in all these contexts. Multiple people have told you you sound like a dick when saying “female”. But you just won’t accept it. Your comment history makes you sound completely insufferable…
Just accept and learn and stop trying to die on this hill because of your ridiculous ego.
Lmfao. Dude, calling me offended and telling me to chill out doesn’t work anymore. Trolling has evolved.
I explained to you patiently where your mistake is, and you sent me a wall of text about why you should be allowed to refer to a whole group of people by a word they don’t like.
Because I generally interact with people who are uncomfortable being assigned traditional gender roles, it’s more comfortable to think of them as their biological sex–male or female, so that I am not projecting gender stereotypes on them
That happened lmao. You just made this the fuck up
Dude, I’m a furry. Most of my friends are gay, trans, or some form of LGBTQ+ or non-binary who do not conform to typical gender or societal stereotypes.
Stop being a piece of shit lmao
All those males and females who are your friends? Lmao no you stop
“This guy says the word female so he must not have any friends” – This guy, apparently.
You’re dumb.
I assume there are also other criteria as well?
Lol yeah, there is quite a bit of criteria.
There’s a difference between using it as an adjective and a noun.
Requesting “a female doctor” is not as bad as requesting “a female.”
I also couldn’t think of a more clinical setting than a doctor’s clinic
Silly comment. I prefer female doctors because I like their personalies better, and I believe that their medical knowledge is equal to a male doctor’s knowledge. It’s also less weird to me to be touched by a member my preferred gender. My reasons are absolutely not related to any clinical reasoning.
You literally used the example of a doctor to disagree with someone saying it’s clinical, I just thought it was funny so made a joke.
And why so serious? Reply to the other person who was actually making a serious point if you want that
Adjective vs noun. Noun-izing some adjectives makes them sound like a slur
A black doctor vs a black.
A Jewish doctor vs a jew.
A female doctor vs a female.
Thanks for the explanation. It’s too bad it’s seen as a slur, as it’s really useful to group women and girls with one word. As is “male”, for men and boys. This one doesn’t appear to be seen as a slur, though.
My understanding is that its less about the word itself and more about the usage in contrast to how the same person refers to men. Males will be men, dudes, bros, etc. but they’ll only refer to women as females. Usually with a thinly veiled distain. “All these dudes just hanging out but the FEMALES are fighting.” or some shit.
I’m in my 30s and I’ve never met a single person in my entire life who refers to women as “the females”. I work in a highly male-dominated field full of country boys, for reference.
I’ve not personally met someone like that either, but I AM terminally online and see it a lot. It’s usually Andrew Tate enjoyer types.
I’m in my 30’s and haven’t heard it out in the real world either, but that’s probably because the assortment of individuals who use females as a pejorative either don’t use it in public because it’s cringe and they know it, or because they don’t go outside.
That’s only my educated guess though.When I worked in an FLGS I heard it from customers quite often, which we would always try to nudge them in another direction. It’s not the “country boys” who say it, it’s the 4chan/incel/Alpha-male set.
As usual, it’s male pieces of shit ruining everything for everyone else.
I noticed during my business trip to Australia that the toilets were labeled male/female. It sounded weird in my head for some reason.
Now imagine other languages that don’t have female-woman difference.
I prefer my doctor be a man, personally
Is there some reason for some preferences?
Do you prefer all men or just doctors?
Spermatozoon-producing organism and ovum-producing organism
I’ve seen some be upset about it used in “male and female” context. I think they just misunderstood why some don’t like the use of the term or didn’t stop to think about it.
It’s not even clinical, it’s used as a shortening of “female patient” or “female subject” or whatever, especially when lady or woman (which refer only to adult female humans) aren’t universally clear, but people who use it as a noun outside of those contexts are just using nonstandard English, and generally socially inacceptable nonstandard English at that.
I love the scent of a female.
As a humanoid male, i too love the scent of a homo sapien female.
As a sentient homo sapien, I find myself inexorably drawn to the olfactory stimuli emitted by the female of our species, which invoke an unparalleled sensory euphoria within the neural pathways of my encephalon. 🧐
You dropped your fedora, redditor!
Give yourself some credit! You were able to write that sentence and post it on the internet, so you’re sapient, not merely sentient!
And with one hand, too!
I find there’s nothing better than harvesting the scent of a female in a tank, with flower petals of course, and then scrapings it off thier skin. Someday I hope to use it in all five chords of a fragrance.
Perfume, story of a murderer
Bro wat
What… why… when did you come up with that username. I regret interpreting it
I love the scent of a female.
Senza una donna
Here’s a hint, guys: removedes don’t like being called “females”.
removeds don’t like being called “females”.
FTFY
I don’t understand. My girlfriend calls women “females”.
So long as you’re not using it in a disrespectful way, there’s no reason why women can’t be called what they are. What’s next? Getting upset because I call it a vagina instead of a “removed”?
I’ve never read any internet comment using “female” as a noun for human women that wasn’t problematic.
This is interesting to me because, as a dude in his 40s, I grew up with adults (and even cartoons) saying ‘woman xxxx’ being the pejorative (i.e. damn woman drivers!). It’s been weird to seem to see this flip.
In addition to what the other reply to you said, I was talking specifically about “female” as a noun.
“females like xyz” and so on.
That’s true, but the OP’s and my experience is that the adjectival use, like “woman doctor,” was pejorative. I associate it with Greatest and Silent Generation relatives. We changed to say “female doctor,” as it sounded more neutral.
Now, there’s a movement back, and lots of younger folks now say that the latter is demeaning, and that “woman doctor” is the respectful phrasing. I know it’s essentially arbitrary, and defined by usage, it’s just interesting to see the evolution.
IMHO fine:
- female doctor
- woman who is a doctor
IMHO weird:
- woman doctor
- a female who is a doctor
So it’s not a reversal. Using “woman” like an adjective is still weird!
I’m with you, but I’ve been reading online that “woman doctor” is now the preferred form.
I see, that is strange!
I think the difference is that one case is a collective noun and the other is a fallacy.
Contrast with using females as a collective noun which can been seen as reductive or offensive on its own without the fallacious logic.
Ah! Yes! I’m not the only one.
Lol! I forget I’m older. That may also contribute to my comfortability with it!
Human women
As opposed to what, robot women?
(All women are human.)
I use it, and never mean it in an offensive way.
“The pronoun “she” is for females, while “he” is for males”.
But now that I see that it’s so widely seen as a slur, I’ll refrain from using it with people who don’t know me well. I’ll use “women and girls”, now.
I’m bothered when ever I hear someone use females as a collective noun for women. Not necessarily because it offends me or because I’m offended on behalf of someone else, but because it sounds so strange to me and the context where it is used is often wildly inappropriate.
The usage is odd; in my experience people who refer to women collectively as females often do not refer to men collectively as males which is often telling about other beliefs and ideas. Also, male/female and man/woman are dichotomies, and using men/females sounds really off.
Referring to people using technical terminology feels reductive and weird to me. Replace female with any other technical identity term and use it the same way: it will get really awkward really fast.
I am aware that the majority of people who use females collectively are not doing so to offend. Hell, the other day, I heard a teacher refer to the girls in her class as females. I doubt she was using it as a pejorative, but she referred to the boys as… boys. The whole thing was weird to me.
Yea. “Female” and “male” don’t sound weird to me in themselves. I don’t see then as in a different category of words than “women” or “boys”. But using it in an inconsistent way would be weird to me as well. If in a class, the girls, or women, are in the same age as the boys, or men, then it should be either “girls and boys”, or “women and men”. Or “females and males”. But “females and boys” is just inconsistent.
It’s generally the difference between using it as a descriptor, and a noun. Noun bad.
Compare “I really like watching the female football game” and “I really like watching the women’s football game”
“Female” isn’t trans-inclusive, but people aren’t going to look at you weird either way you say it.Now compare that to:
“I really like watching the females play football.” and “I really like watching the women play football.”
“Females” here makes you sound like you’re getting sexual gratification from watching the players, or that you see them as nothing more than a vagina, “women” sounds like you might like the game.And/or it makes you sound like a zoologist
Or a statistician. looks around nervously
But what if I am a zoologist?
That’s what we were instructed to use to refer to a subset of our platoon-mates while working, in those rare cases where it made a difference. One of my DS, an MP from Halifax, would absolutely tear a strip off you if she heard you say ‘girl’ or ‘woman’, in barely comprehensible English out from under that scary red Beret, and you knew the woe was coming.
As a recovered Marine, I know too well how sexist the military is especially under the guise of “nomenclature.”
I just made a comment about this too! The “male” and “female” vernacular is alive and well in the US military as well!
I honestly thought you meant she was a Member Of Parliament from Halifax, though that sounds way scarier.
Of course. They’re pronouncing it wrong.
Gotta gotta rhyme with tamales.
I don’t understand why “gal” isn’t used more. It’s "woman"s single-syllable sister and also isn’t infantilizing like using “girl” can be.
Still waiting for ‘broad’ to become fashionable again…
In my memory, the term was not used kindly even during its peak.
Eww
I only ever hear gals use it, usually in group settings. It really is a shame. It just feels dated for whatever reason in other contexts, I guess.
I see what you did there :)
Weeb
I used to use “guys and gals” in a work setting, but then I hired an employee who identified as non binary (hope I’m using the right word here) and I didnt want them to feel excluded. I started using “all” or “yinz” instead and it stuck. At this point I just don’t assume pronouns unless someone tells me what theirs are.
Guys, gals, and enby pals is pretty inclusive and rhymes
"Humans, "
Those guys are the rapiest ones. It’s disingenuous to act like the types of men who call women ‘females’ aren’t the same guys who neg, space invade and spike drinks.
It’s fairly common where I live, of both genders.
Do people commonly say “men and females” where you live?
No, everybody negs, space invades and spikes drinks.
You neg, space invade and spike peoples drinks? That’s really fucked up bro.
Men/males.
In my native language it’s highly offensive to call a woman a female. Didn’t know that’s the thing in English.
At the same time we call children “human larve” and everyone is ok with that
It really really rubs most of us the wrong way. Yet, for whatever reason, stupid men are taught that it is ok to call us “females”. It is like we are corpses. Things. Not even people.
Even if someone called me a “male” constantly it would kind of freak me out. They are theoretically interchangeable, but male or female just comes off less “human” I guess. If they choose to only ever say male or female then it makes you wonder if they literally perceive you as inhuman.
I mean I used to do it tons in the army, that was the accepted way to refer to the women. Like “hey where is the females bunk I need to drop something off to sgt jones”
I never meant it disrespectfully, can’t speak for anyone else though.
It’s not so much that the word itself is offensive it’s just that using it as a noun instead of an adjective to refer to a person carries with it connotations and implies you’re referring to a person as if they’re a subject or an animal or something below human.
Oh wow, thanks. Nope, I won’t call women with that word anymore
At the same time we call children “human larve” and everyone is ok with that
In Low Saxon (and Northern German) there’s “Schietbüddel”. Depending on how you translate it it could mean “chaotic/sticky minion” or “bundle of excrement”.
“Bundle of excrement”. Wow I like it
“Crotch drippings” is my favorite euphemism for children.
Crotch goblins
Image of the introductory coursework for people wanting to learn English.
It’s crazy how the eldritch amalgamation that is the English language can have zero rules, yet a dozen unwritten ones of what you can and can’t say. Good luck threading the needle if you aren’t up to date with the latest cultural evolution in America. Add on top that the kids keep inventing sentences worth of new acronyms.
I get what group of people the article is poking fun at, one of them is on proud display in the comment section. Though I still feel people should have a better understanding that as the Internet’s lingua franca you’ll encounter people from a wide range of backgrounds, and their grasp of the language and culture will vary.
I can certainly see it being a struggle for non native English speakers or English speakers from other cultures. Referring to women as females is one of those things thats accurate according to the language, but a lot of bigots have figured out that they can use common words as slurs and people are slower to catch on. Female is unfortunately one of those words; it evokes big “I see you as livestock” energy
Yeah. I think a fair few people misunderstand the intent of my comment. I agree that the connotation of “female” makes it a word one should be conscious about its usage.
I was strictly speaking of how non native speakers of English may struggle with keeping up with what’s socially correct English according to the wider Internet culture.
This, so much. In my language, even as little kids, they called us “males and females”, very rarely “boys and girls”.
Native speakers need to understand that not everyone knows all the connotations that come from every english word. Especially considering some of them are vastly different based on whether it’s used in USA, UK or Australia.
TL;DR, most people are reasonable and can tell the difference. We cool.
People where English is not their first language get a pass. There is usually a very telling inflection when someone says “females” and means it in the bad way. I would rather help people with their English and explain that it is best to not say it that way, than get upset over our language being unnecessarily complicated.
The context of how female is said is even more confusing. Best way I think is if you are referring to a group of people or a specific person as female(s), that is bad. If you are referring to something about our gender, a description, or something impersonal, then that is fine. “Female anatomy.”, “I hate being female.”, “There was a female guard at the station.”
While it is puts me on edge when I hear it (in that bad context), it isn’t like they called me a cunt or something really foul. It is usually just an immediate red flag that we may be dealing with an incel, but let’s see where this goes. Usually doesn’t take long to get a confirmation on how they really meant it.
I personally already know the connotation of “female/s” in English and avoid using it, so that’s not an issue for me.
It was more of a reminder (to some native speakers, yeah, I shouldn’t have generalized) not to assume the worst of people saying it, because they might not know. In the whole thread there was just this one comment reminding people that ESL people exist, and it was pretty downvoted so I wanted to add on that.
Plus, as you said, most of those Tate-types have a dozen other red flags attached to them, so imo there’s not really any point in attacking people just for misusing a word (especially online where you can’t rely on vocal inflection or accent). It just drives non-native speakers away from conversations.
(Also, ironically, as far as I know “cunt” is pretty much a greeting in Australia so even from that alone you can’t really assume anything. Context is always important, unless you know 100% you’re speaking with someone who grew up in the same country)
What are you talking about
I feel like the last paragraph made it pretty clear? Most people on the internet doesn’t have English as their native language, expecting all those people to understand the constantly shifting connotation of every word feels rather ignorant/ethnocentric.
But every language has a constant changing lexicon and a difference between offical and actually used.
English certainly feels like a lot more fast moving than Norwegian, can’t really speak for other languages. That wasn’t even really my point though
My point is that a lot of people seems to have rather strong feelings about something that can often simply be an honest mistake from someone who may not even be fluent in English, let alone understanding the finer nuances of the words
In some that’s true for everyone. Even with in the same language milliseconds can change if you’re precived as rude or not. Many people aren’t aware of this. We Just internalize a rythm and a bunch of rules. Then some one breaks them an they come off as rude or mean. Its just something baked into us.
He cray-cray
Most language courses will have you learn the word woman before you learn female. Is this really an issue?
What issue? I’m not even directly talking about the usage of the word female. I’m talking about the lack of understanding a lot* of English speakers show when “others” use their language.
To use male/female as an example, my language doesn’t even have direct translation for male and female, we only have the equivalent to man/woman when speaking of humans. I could totally understand that someone who aren’t terminally online may be confused of when to use woman and when to use female, especially as female may seem more formal and thus be confused with being the polite option, just as an example.
*far from all of course
Ok I will totally admit that, especially when during DEI discussions or other similar meetings, when my brain is about to say “woman” I can freak out and over-correct and I have absolutely said “females”.
I used to say “boys and girls”, even my female wife says “girls” is fine, but 1 time in 2009 I got yelled at for using “girls” and I have never recovered.
Saying something that may be perceived as offensive and then later realizing you probably should have said it differently is totally different from saying the same thing unabashedly with zero self-awareness
Why can’t you say ‘woman’ when refering to a woman?
Sometimes it feels awkward. I’m getting used to it but for some reason it’s unnatural. My women friends in real life also find it weird to say women, they also say females.
Do you also have ‘man friends’ in real life? Or do you say ‘male friends’?
I don’t really say man either, I guess I would prefer to say male friends or guy friends.
