Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL
I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.
Yeah. I try not to mention it to people if I can avoid it. I work construction and am surrounded by manly men tring to out man each other. I had one guy offer me bear jerkey and got bent out of shape when I declined. He wouldn’t stop. He just kept on me about why I didn’t eat meat. After about an hour of him asking again and again why I don’t eat meat I said “meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.
It never cases to amaze me that a 250pound dude with a 40oz soda in one hand and a mouthfull of gas station pizza thinks he has the responsibility to lecture me about nutrition.
“meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.
It’s both sad and hillarious that this worked. I wonder if you created a new vegetarian as well
As a life-long vegetarian, this has been my experience as well.
Why do they believe you only find protein in meat?
Some essential amino acids are difficult to find in adequate quantities on a vegan diet. If you don’t vary your protein sources or make sure you are getting the right amino acids, then you may develop a deficiency, which can lead to poor health or even be fatal.
I’m not saying you’re incorrect. But I want to point out that many people who concern troll about how difficult vegan diets are to be healthy on are also people who don’t question how unhealthy their current choices are when it comes to consuming soda, energy drinks, red meat, other snacks, etc. Some people do, but most people who ask me about nutrition are not people who count their own calories or try to balance all their meals. It’s just as easy to be unhealthy as a non-vegan.
From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.
I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them
It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic
Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.
Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!
The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.
And it’s history stems from religious ideology.
Edit: oh you downvoters. Go look it up. A woman had a vision from God that said “don’t eat things with faces”. Dead serious - that’s where it started.
All the sciencey justifications today are post-hoc rationalization.
In my experience it’s usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it’s really good try some Me: i don’t eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy
I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don’t think it’s my fault or my problem they’re offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.
Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly
Some people see “to reduce animal cruelty” as judgy because that’s just how nature is. The moral superiority comes from you acting like you’re somehow above everyone and everything else. It’s entirely in your wording and the implications that if you eat meat, you enjoy animal suffering vs seeing it as a natural outcome of nature.
In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.
They assume a moral high ground because they’ve adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don’t always agree with this).
But unless they’re also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they’re only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they’re taking a generally undeserved “holier than thou” position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn’t everyone, and I don’t really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.
If you accept that there are moral/ethical problems with eating meat (contribution to climate change, health concerns, animals being killed and eaten, whatever), and choose to eat meat anyway, and encounter a vegan, what has to happen?
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice. Most people are cowards and protect the ego at any cost. Rather than shrugging and saying “yeah, i should eat less meat. Good for you taking the high road”, which requires accepting that you’re not being the best, you can instead grab onto any reasons why no it’s really them that sucks. That’s easier, more comfortable, and doesn’t require any painful introspection or changes.
It’s the same mechanism when people get mad at cyclists, pedestrians, people who go to the gym, people who don’t shop at Walmart, whatever. They’re doing something that makes you feel bad in comparison. Most people are terrible at that and will lash out instead of doing anything productive.
Alternatively, or maybe additionally, people are really tribal, and once they adopt the idea that vegans (or cyclists, or people driving small cars, or people wearing sandals, whatever) are in the outgroup, then they enjoy being hostile to them.
People are ego driven emotional morons. All of us. Me, too. It’s terrible.
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others. And create in- and out- groups via labeling.
Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food, because meat is heavily subsidized compared to vegetarian options. Also, because being vegan/vegetarian is not the default, many products are overpriced.
Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.
So it is not just about good or bad, it is also about privilege and class. So people should not go around making statements about other people making “worse” choices.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others.
I’m not sure we agree on what “lording over” is. Like if someone says “Sorry, I can’t eat that, I’m vegan” is that lording it over you? Pretty much every vegan I’ve encountered has been polite, and at about the level of someone with a food allergy. Sometimes they check the ingredients label.
You can accept that they are making a better choice,
That’s exactly where it starts. You simply assume that vegans are the better people. And then you preach. That’s exactly what people dislike in vegans and similar people.
“Making a better choice” doesn’t “make you a better person”, necessarily.
And also like I said in my post, just accept that you’re not always going to be a perfect person. None of us are. You don’t have to get mad at anyone else for that.
Do-gooder derogation Basically, some people perceive others’ moral choices as criticism or as some kind of bragging.
And some just see those who militantly focus on attacking fellow individuals instead of the systems that are actually to blame (but which they otherwise support and/or benefit from, like capitalism, racism, and ableism) counterproductive, annoying, and hypocritical.
The militant vegans I have come across, and being vegan myself, it’s a lot, far too many (E: to the point I actively avoid vegan spaces), are almost exclusively drowning in so much privilege, they can’t see how ridiculous they’re being in their bizarre militancy of policing other people’s plates instead of the actual industries abusing animals (and humans, who these vegans rarely to never pay any thought to, not out loud or in their actions, anyway).
(before I even hit send: if you feel personally attacked by my comment - that’s a sign for you to think about it with yourself and ideally do something about it, not try and prove me wrong, inevitably proving me 100% right)
I wonder if being within those circles, you’ve been exposed to certain ugliness on a more intimate level; with people who feel comfortable enough in their in-group to express their more radical thoughts. Anecdotally, I’ve known a few vegans but have never been lectured nor had views pushed on me.
Hell, the only time I ever hear about the radical, pushy vegan is when people complain about them. On the flip side, I’ve been exposed to meat eaters who seem to get offended when someone mentions the concept of veganism, as if someone else not eating animal products is somehow a trigger for them.
Again, all anecdotes here, I’m just figuring one’s exposure to the vocal minorities on either side of the conversation is where you run into the problems.
I’ve never once in the last decade seen a single vegan post other than recipes. What I do see is constant posts about how “vegans are always throwing it my face/holier than thou”, “I’m gonna eat extra meat because vegans make me feel bad”. I really don’t think vegans are the problem, I think these fools fall for every single piece of beef industry propaganda that comes across their screens.
Back on reddit there were those who had alerts set every time the word came up across the site, then they’d brigade the fitness and health subreddits with their vegan crew to derail any conversations. It was really annoying. No clue if that’s still a problem because lolreddit
The same reason people hate leftists, feminists, trans athletes, “gamer girls”, people on welfare, blacks, etc. An image the right cultivated of the group, out of convenient easily-hateable annoying people in it that they could use to create a generalization/stereotype out of. It’s something that’s able to happen to any group, I could portray any hobbyist or activist in this way the same exact way as these “annoying” groups are portrayed, but the right is particularly willing to just flat out lie, slander, and cheat their way into making countercultural/anti-status-quo groups look as absurd as possible, to the point that the majority of the population falls for it (even those that don’t consider themselves to be conservative).
I’ll make a comparison. Conservative/“anti-sjw” thumbnails often have a picture of some angry-looking rainbow haired woman, usually the same few, in order to be like “look how irrational and crazy these feminazis are, she must hate men so much” and like 4 out of 5 of those times it’s a picture of a woman that was protesting a literal neo-nazi gathering or something, not some sort of radical crazy man-hating feminist. But the internet has conditioned the average person to look at someone like that and immediately think they’re an irrational “feminazi”, and conservatives showing these pictures everywhere and making 100 videos on the same person makes people subconsciously believe they’re rampant and have a massive (and bad) grip on society.
Same kind of thing happens with vegans, you have the same 10 or so internet vegans people use to portray veganism that conditions people to think poorly of the concept “vegan”, and when these influencers are confronted about it they say “I don’t hate veganism, I just hate the annoying vegans” then they go onto Twitter to complain about the vegans and how they’re irrational for not eating meat and their brains must be de-evolving or something. They know what they’re doing, but they can hide behind plausible deniability, and the majority of viewers fall for it.
Holier than thou attitude from new vegans whose world view changed overnight and cognitive dissonance on the part of non vegan with the need to deflect than to make substantial changes.
Usually it’s not veganism, itself. Rather, it’s the vegans.
Specifically the annoyingly loud, self-righteous, insists-everyone-must-join-them vegans.
Unfortunately, most people only really see this sort of vegan- rather than the more common, average sort of person who happens to also be vegan.
I do think they are annoying but a necessary type of annoying that will help humanity progress. The same type of annoying as people who claimed women had rights and African Americans were not inferior.
Humans treat this planet like shit, we have zero respect for living beings and the ecosystems. Anyone who gets angry if someone calls them out for supporting animal abuse is just immature and selfish. Like they’ll just deny they are doing something wrong.
I’ll probably never stop eating meat until stuff like Beyond Meat becomes mainstream. But I won’t pretend I’m not a straight up asshole to these animals for supporting their torture and murder. The times I’ve been called out I’ve embraced it instead of denying the obvious.
In 150 years humans will look back in shame at what we did to those animals.
Pointing out the consequences; the climate damage, all that is one thing. Respectful conversation.
Actively tossing out people’s lunches isn’t going to convince anyone of anything, though. Suddenly that person is now the face of vegans for everyone in the office.
Protests, sure. But when it comes to interpersonal relationships…. Yeah. Doesn’t help.
Ah yeha, agreed. If they get physical, fuck that. I’m sure that’s just like 1% or less of vegans. We can’t judge a whole group for the actions of a few.
What they really hate is being guilt tripped into changing their dietary habits.
EDIT: To be clear, I support veganism. I’m saying the people who react apprehensively to veganism are choosing willfully ignorant bliss. To choose a high meat diet is to deny reason and give into what the animal in us wants.
I don’t hate veganism. It’s a dietary choice and that’s fine. What I hate is vegans. They’re always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They’re an annoying group of people and I just don’t want to have to deal with them.
Veganism is not a dietary choice it’s a lifestyle choice. Diet is just a big part of it but not the whole thing.
Then what would we call someone who makes the dietary choice but none of the other lifestyle choices? How would they identify in a restaurant setting? The answer is “vegan”. In the same way that I’m vegetarian but don’t care if I wear leather shoes.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that English lacks the words that would let you be precise. We need a word for people who are vegan in diet, and don’t care to bother the rest of the world about it. That’s why OPs question keeps coming up.
Plant-based is the label for people who follow a vegan diet (plant-based diet) but not a vegan lifestyle like avoiding leather.
Do people say that in restaurants? I’ve actually never heard it.
Generally, no. You might see it in grocery store labeling as a tactic to signal the food is okay for vegans but to try and not turn off someone who goes “ick” if something specifically says its vegan. But it’s because “vegan” means the same thing in dietary terms. Vegan food is suitable for both vegans and people on plant-based diets, because the other things vegans are concerned with aren’t related to diet so aren’t relevant to the context.
Instead of whimsy anecdotes, how about something with a bit more science behind it: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation
Oooh! A wiki article! Look at you, educating people with science and stuff.
/s
You can see who the vegans are in this comment section by trying to make it some moral issue
You can see who isn’t vegan by the comments talking about vegans being annoying
IRL these groups don’t interact as much, if you bring both to a barbecue then you will find the above sentiment again
Veganism at its core is a moral stance. If not for the moral issues, these people would probably be vegetarian instead. That’s not to say that all vegans are the aggressive evangelist kind, but pretty much all vegans choose their diet out of moral concerns (in addition to health and environmental reasons).
That’s great you feel that way but
The other side doesn’t care/think about it/feel that way
The not in your face vegans aren’t in your face so they wouldn’t mention it and remain unknown so they don’t shape people’s perceptions
What “other side”? Vegans? I suppose there are some who are just sort of “cultural vegans” too, where they don’t have a moral stance, but are vegan because their friends or family are.
I’m not sure if maybe you’re reading more negativity in my comment than I meant. There’s certainly nothing wrong with animal welfare as a moral stance.
What “other side”?
Non-vegan
I don’t believe the people who aren’t vegan view their choice as a moral decision
Many people who aren’t vegan still choose free range eggs, organic beef, fair trade coffee and chocolate.
The 500 mile diet is absolutely a moral choice, even if it includes meat.
Albertans preferentially eating large amounts of Alberta beef is viewed as a virtue there. Veganism is viewed as immoral, unalbertan (amongst some communities).
It’s a first world hill to die on, and many of the people who espouse veganism are only able to do so because of their own privilege.
It’s a combination of smugness and “I’m better than you” and the lack of awareness that everyone had and continues to benefit from a world that has always used animal products. The Industrial Revolution basically ran on steam engines and leather belts, for example.
I have absolutely no problem with the idea that using fewer animal products and eating less meat is a good idea. I also recognize that feeding the world’s growing population is probably going to involve insects being more widely used as a food source.
Vegans literally are suggesting solutions to the growing population because in almost every situation, it is much more efficient by land and water use for people to eat plant-based rather than meat. It’s only a “first world hill to die on” if you think poor people can’t eat plants. Sorry but I don’t think this is a very accurate take…
What privilege? Meat is the most expensive food out there. Eating rice and beans isn’t really showing privilege
Those aren’t the vegans that most people are talking about. Being poor and having to eat vegan is different from being vegan because you want to stand out from everyone else with your vegan black bean soy burger with vegan cheese on a vegan sprouted whole wheat bun. If you can afford the overpriced “vegan” versions of typically non-vegan foods, and complain about your struggles being vegan, that’s privilege.
When you’re poor, you don’t advertise the fact that you’re eating vegan. You just make rice and beans because it’s the absolute cheapest food available. You’ll take meat and non-vegan when it’s available. But at the very least, you’ll survive on rice and beans. It’s generally not something that people are proud of.
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They explicitly said that he was only judging the people only being vegan to be vegan so they could act like that
Which is a non-existent strawman.
The implication is that this is common. I don’t think even one vegan is vegan just to show off some kind of privelege. This is just a childish and unrealistic caricature that does not exist in reality.
I didn’t say that. I said if you’re buying the vegan substitutes and advertising that fact, that makes you privileged. I’ve seen it many times. There are even some in this post. People that eat vegan because they have limited choices don’t advertise it. People that want to feel superior over others will express how much of a vegan they are.
People aren’t vegan through limited choice. It’s a conscious decision. You might eat a plant-based diet because you can’t afford meat, but that doesn’t make you the same as someone who is choosing not to eat meat on purpose. You’re comparing someone who wants to be vegan with someone who doesn’t and saying one is superior/less annoying. They’re two different people.
Congratulations, you’re finally getting it. They are two different people. There are people that eat vegan because they have no choice. Those people are not privileged. There are people that call themselves vegan and make sure everyone knows they are vegan. Those are the vegans the original comment was talking about, which someone took offense to. That’s why I pointed out the difference.
It took a little effort, but at least you got there.
Am I privileged if I can afford to eat Beyond Burgers every night but I eat rice and beans instead? What if I can’t afford those things, still eat rice and beans, but I tell people I’m vegan to avoid awkward social interactions? You’re making up a caricature of vegans in your head, comparing them to poor people who happen to not be able to afford meat, and then saying the latter is somehow a better person.
The option you presented is a poor non-vegan person vs. a wealthier vegan person. There are people in between these two things.
Found it interesting to discover that the money here in the UK is made from animal parts - I think certain notes contain tallow? Definitely seems like it is impossible to fully exclude animal products from your daily life unless you go off the grid and try to be an entirely self sufficient vegan homesteader, which, while extremely difficult and likely dangerous is still an option open to those preaching a vegan lifestyle. Vegans often do not actually practise their philosophy as far as is practical and possible, they all draw the line somewhere so far as how willing they are to sacrifice their comfort and convenience. Like there are no fully vegan cars - the glue is animal based, even if you opt out of a leather interior. Public transport or taking a job you can walk to are alternatives in the UK if you actually cared about benefitting from animals as little as possible, but few vegans will make sacrifices which are actually inconvenient once you get down to the nitty gritty
Imo being a vegan so far as diet and basic lifestyle changes goes is fairly easy for some people (they don’t really like meat to begin with, know how to cook and enjoy it, no real health issues, disposable income) but the real test of how much they actually believe in these ideas is in if they consistently give up more niche forms of animal exploitation wherever they can
I think “the money is made from animal parts and there are no fully vegan cars so you’re arbitrarily picking and choosing when to be vegan” misses the point of ideological veganism. I’m not a vegan, but I believe the goal for ideological vegans (in contrast with those who are vegan for medical reasons) is to minimize suffering and exploitation within reason for the specific reasons you said. No one can be 100% free of animal parts unless they become an off-the-grid self-sustained homestead.
Vegans know that. But most come to the conclusion that just because you can’t live 100% animal free doesn’t mean you can’t try to get to 80% because you want to live your life in a manner you consider morally and ethically consistent with your collective ideologies. You get as close as you can within reason depending on the various constraints of your individual circumstances. “I am still a vegetarian, and I try to be a vegan, but I occasionally cheat. If there’s a cheese pizza on the band bus, I might sneak a piece,” to quote Weird Al Yankovic.
I’d say most people, including vegans, have more than one goal in life. The “lines in the sand” you’re referring to are at the intersection of their goal to minimize suffering and their goal to, say, keep living. Like if a vegan were told by their doctor, “If you don’t start eating meat, you’ll die from this weird disease,” the vegan likely wouldn’t be like, “Well, I might as well indulge in eggs and milk and all other animal products now since I can’t be 100% vegan” and chow down. They’d probably eat just the amount prescribed by their doctor, because they still don’t like eating meat because its origins bother them.
I would be totally fine with them drawing their lines wherever if they let other people do the same, but many vegans will take the stance that consuming animal products or meat is always wrong, and never justified, no matter what. Many vegans actually would disagree that it is justified to eat animal products if a doctor recommended it, they’d say there are no nutrients found within those products which can’t be found in plants. They’d also be against eating gifted non-vegan food, many are against feeding cats a nonvegan diet too
Um… Ima call bullshit real quick. I don’t think you have ever met a single person who is as you’ve drawn in your cartoon here.
Also, why would a vegan or vegetarian be obligated to eat an animal-based product just because it was a gift? That would be weird as fuck. You don’t eat sausage or cheese? Here’s a sausage and cheese basket. It’s a gift; you have to eat it.
And finally, you are suggesting that vegans kill cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. Vegan cat owners know this. A “vegan cat” will not survive long. Suggesting vegans force cats to be vegans is just an absurd falsehood.
Re: vegan cats, they actually can do well on a properly planned/supplemented vegan diet, although more research is needed. If you’re against nutritionally complete vegan kibble, you should be against all kibble
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/ The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review (2023)
“However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets. In addition, some of the evidence on adverse health impacts is contradicted in other studies. Additionally, there is some evidence of benefits, particularly arising from guardians’ perceptions of the diets. Given the lack of large population-based studies, a cautious approach is recommended. If guardians wish to implement a vegan diet, it is recommended that commercial foods are used.”
People don’t hate veganism as much as they don’t appreciate being judged for their choices and chastised by other adults for beliefs that they don’t share.
Personally I have no problem respecting the beliefs of people who are vegan due to their personal morals. Until they start disrespecting the beliefs of others who don’t agree with them with regards to meat, then they become annoying.
Eh, it’s hard for me to respect someones beliefs when they use those beliefs to justify causing harm. And if someone believes that experiencing a good taste in their mouth justifies killing, I don’t respect that at all
I said this on another thread posted by a very antagonistic vegan: Acting holier-than-thou, smug, and hostile is not a good way to convince people of your arguments. It pushes people away and biases them against you and the argument you’re making.
Far too often I see vegans outright shaming and harassing people for choosing to eat meat, or acting smug and superior because they are making “the right moral decision” and everyone else is lessor for thinking otherwise. I often see them call people “stupid” and “lazy” for not making the same choice they did.
Now, if I came here acting the same way, but I was championing eating only meat and shaming others for eating vegetables, I’m sure vegans would be upset for the same reason.
It’s gotten bad enough that a lot of people (admittedly myself included) are put off by vegans and their arguments. Not because the arguments don’t have merit (they certainly do) but because enough vegans have acted antagonistic or smug that they get shunned for it when the discussion gets brought up, because it’s what has become expected.
If you really want people to listen to you, you need to frame it from a friendlier and more down-to-earth position and not come across as hostile. The human mind tends to close itself off immediately when faced with hostility. This doesn’t just apply to discussions about veganism, but any discussion in general really.
And I have yet to encounter a single smug vegan. Not online, not offline.
But I’ve seen countless people like you fighting the just fight against vegan windmills (awesome Rügenwalder double reference for the German people here).
So where exactly are those vegans? Are they in the room with us right now? Or are you defining every mere mentioning of veganism as an attack because you deep down are afraid of actually having to confront the cognitive dissonance you’re living under?
With the Kirsti Noem controversy going on I’ve seen quite a few smug shit takes about veganism including (paraphrasing) “why are all you non-vegans outraged by this, it’s no different than murdering a cow for their meat”.
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