Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL
I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.
Yeah. I try not to mention it to people if I can avoid it. I work construction and am surrounded by manly men tring to out man each other. I had one guy offer me bear jerkey and got bent out of shape when I declined. He wouldn’t stop. He just kept on me about why I didn’t eat meat. After about an hour of him asking again and again why I don’t eat meat I said “meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.
It never cases to amaze me that a 250pound dude with a 40oz soda in one hand and a mouthfull of gas station pizza thinks he has the responsibility to lecture me about nutrition.
“meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.
It’s both sad and hillarious that this worked. I wonder if you created a new vegetarian as well
As a life-long vegetarian, this has been my experience as well.
I did get offended when, after a very successful date, I went to a shawarma place with her and we both had a super awesome shawarma with lots of meat. For the next date I made some pizza rolls with salami and she confessed that she actually doesn’t eat meat.
I still tease her about that when I meet her nowadays.
Why do they believe you only find protein in meat?
Lots of people are really stupid
You are not wrong. I am vegetarian for about 15 years and I’ve literally have had a father of a friend yell at me. He was telling vegetarians aren’t real and if anybody would actually not eat meat for a couple of months they would die because they would be missing vital nutrients only found in meat. He was yelling at me to stop telling lies and be truthful.
Some essential amino acids are difficult to find in adequate quantities on a vegan diet. If you don’t vary your protein sources or make sure you are getting the right amino acids, then you may develop a deficiency, which can lead to poor health or even be fatal.
I have read that this is largely a myth based on a book from the 70s, and that while there are varying proportions of amino acids in different vegan protein sources, there is still enough of each so that you could easily get everything you need.
I read this in a book years ago that I don’t remember the name of, but found a source instantly
I’m not saying you’re incorrect. But I want to point out that many people who concern troll about how difficult vegan diets are to be healthy on are also people who don’t question how unhealthy their current choices are when it comes to consuming soda, energy drinks, red meat, other snacks, etc. Some people do, but most people who ask me about nutrition are not people who count their own calories or try to balance all their meals. It’s just as easy to be unhealthy as a non-vegan.
From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.
I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them
It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic
Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.
Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!
The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.
In my experience it’s usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it’s really good try some Me: i don’t eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy
I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don’t think it’s my fault or my problem they’re offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.
Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly
Some people see “to reduce animal cruelty” as judgy because that’s just how nature is. The moral superiority comes from you acting like you’re somehow above everyone and everything else. It’s entirely in your wording and the implications that if you eat meat, you enjoy animal suffering vs seeing it as a natural outcome of nature.
In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.
They assume a moral high ground because they’ve adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don’t always agree with this).
But unless they’re also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they’re only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they’re taking a generally undeserved “holier than thou” position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn’t everyone, and I don’t really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.
And it’s history stems from religious ideology.
Edit: oh you downvoters. Go look it up. A woman had a vision from God that said “don’t eat things with faces”. Dead serious - that’s where it started.
All the sciencey justifications today are post-hoc rationalization.
Do-gooder derogation Basically, some people perceive others’ moral choices as criticism or as some kind of bragging.
And some just see those who militantly focus on attacking fellow individuals instead of the systems that are actually to blame (but which they otherwise support and/or benefit from, like capitalism, racism, and ableism) counterproductive, annoying, and hypocritical.
The militant vegans I have come across, and being vegan myself, it’s a lot, far too many (E: to the point I actively avoid vegan spaces), are almost exclusively drowning in so much privilege, they can’t see how ridiculous they’re being in their bizarre militancy of policing other people’s plates instead of the actual industries abusing animals (and humans, who these vegans rarely to never pay any thought to, not out loud or in their actions, anyway).
(before I even hit send: if you feel personally attacked by my comment - that’s a sign for you to think about it with yourself and ideally do something about it, not try and prove me wrong, inevitably proving me 100% right)
I wonder if being within those circles, you’ve been exposed to certain ugliness on a more intimate level; with people who feel comfortable enough in their in-group to express their more radical thoughts. Anecdotally, I’ve known a few vegans but have never been lectured nor had views pushed on me.
Hell, the only time I ever hear about the radical, pushy vegan is when people complain about them. On the flip side, I’ve been exposed to meat eaters who seem to get offended when someone mentions the concept of veganism, as if someone else not eating animal products is somehow a trigger for them.
Again, all anecdotes here, I’m just figuring one’s exposure to the vocal minorities on either side of the conversation is where you run into the problems.
I’ve never once in the last decade seen a single vegan post other than recipes. What I do see is constant posts about how “vegans are always throwing it my face/holier than thou”, “I’m gonna eat extra meat because vegans make me feel bad”. I really don’t think vegans are the problem, I think these fools fall for every single piece of beef industry propaganda that comes across their screens.
Back on reddit there were those who had alerts set every time the word came up across the site, then they’d brigade the fitness and health subreddits with their vegan crew to derail any conversations. It was really annoying. No clue if that’s still a problem because lolreddit
Holier than thou attitude from new vegans whose world view changed overnight and cognitive dissonance on the part of non vegan with the need to deflect than to make substantial changes.
The same reason people hate leftists, feminists, trans athletes, “gamer girls”, people on welfare, blacks, etc. An image the right cultivated of the group, out of convenient easily-hateable annoying people in it that they could use to create a generalization/stereotype out of. It’s something that’s able to happen to any group, I could portray any hobbyist or activist in this way the same exact way as these “annoying” groups are portrayed, but the right is particularly willing to just flat out lie, slander, and cheat their way into making countercultural/anti-status-quo groups look as absurd as possible, to the point that the majority of the population falls for it (even those that don’t consider themselves to be conservative).
I’ll make a comparison. Conservative/“anti-sjw” thumbnails often have a picture of some angry-looking rainbow haired woman, usually the same few, in order to be like “look how irrational and crazy these feminazis are, she must hate men so much” and like 4 out of 5 of those times it’s a picture of a woman that was protesting a literal neo-nazi gathering or something, not some sort of radical crazy man-hating feminist. But the internet has conditioned the average person to look at someone like that and immediately think they’re an irrational “feminazi”, and conservatives showing these pictures everywhere and making 100 videos on the same person makes people subconsciously believe they’re rampant and have a massive (and bad) grip on society.
Same kind of thing happens with vegans, you have the same 10 or so internet vegans people use to portray veganism that conditions people to think poorly of the concept “vegan”, and when these influencers are confronted about it they say “I don’t hate veganism, I just hate the annoying vegans” then they go onto Twitter to complain about the vegans and how they’re irrational for not eating meat and their brains must be de-evolving or something. They know what they’re doing, but they can hide behind plausible deniability, and the majority of viewers fall for it.
Most people think themselves as good people. Most people love, or claim to love, animals.
The existence of veganism and its implication is that there is an unnecessary animal holocaust happening, because of societal norms and for the entertainment of people’s palates. So how do you reconcile these things? By claiming that veganism is something extreme, something unattractive, something that is impossible to do.
People who talk about how “militant vegans have turned them away from veganism” are mostly lying to themselves. If an asshole told you not to litter, would you litter because of that? If an asshole told you to be atheist would you go “well now, i will be even more religious”? But when people make arguments like this, leftists realize how ridiculous those arguments are. Except when it comes to veganism.
Obviously you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar but i want to believe that people in this site can see past that and think for themselves.
Legumes(beans/lentils), vegetables, fruits, potatoes, pasta and rice is what most of the world already eats. Nowadays there are vegan alternatives for stuff and most restaurants often have a vegan option. It isnt hard to be vegan but any lifestyle change can be hard, especially if real life is putting a lot of pressure on you.
Any change is hard, being vegan is easy. Millions of people are vegan and have been vegan for many years. I have been vegan for 12 years now. There has never been an easier time to be vegan than now. Being vegan is the easiest and with the biggest impact thing you can do.
True Courage Is About Knowing Not When To Take A Life But When To Spare One
PS Salt potato chips and oreos are vegan. You dont need to eat healthy. And if you are a straight dude, vegan dudes are more attractive to women, even to non vegan women. It’s literally free +charisma in real life.
Because brains are wired to avoid 1) changes to habits and 2) admission of wrongdoing. Encountering a vegan makes the brain start running cover and looking for ways to discredit arguments. Often, the mental framework for dismissing “uppity” advocates already exists. There’s also the force of money and industry propaganda which should be acknowledged, but in my experience people are more than capable of coming up with justifications on their own.
It’s very difficult to overcome these psychological forces, but simply making the switch can remove a lot of cognitive dissonance and expose certain BS arguments for what they are.
If you accept that there are moral/ethical problems with eating meat (contribution to climate change, health concerns, animals being killed and eaten, whatever), and choose to eat meat anyway, and encounter a vegan, what has to happen?
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice. Most people are cowards and protect the ego at any cost. Rather than shrugging and saying “yeah, i should eat less meat. Good for you taking the high road”, which requires accepting that you’re not being the best, you can instead grab onto any reasons why no it’s really them that sucks. That’s easier, more comfortable, and doesn’t require any painful introspection or changes.
It’s the same mechanism when people get mad at cyclists, pedestrians, people who go to the gym, people who don’t shop at Walmart, whatever. They’re doing something that makes you feel bad in comparison. Most people are terrible at that and will lash out instead of doing anything productive.
Alternatively, or maybe additionally, people are really tribal, and once they adopt the idea that vegans (or cyclists, or people driving small cars, or people wearing sandals, whatever) are in the outgroup, then they enjoy being hostile to them.
People are ego driven emotional morons. All of us. Me, too. It’s terrible.
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others. And create in- and out- groups via labeling.
Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food, because meat is heavily subsidized compared to vegetarian options. Also, because being vegan/vegetarian is not the default, many products are overpriced.
Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.
So it is not just about good or bad, it is also about privilege and class. So people should not go around making statements about other people making “worse” choices.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others.
I’m not sure we agree on what “lording over” is. Like if someone says “Sorry, I can’t eat that, I’m vegan” is that lording it over you? Pretty much every vegan I’ve encountered has been polite, and at about the level of someone with a food allergy. Sometimes they check the ingredients label.
You can accept that they are making a better choice,
That’s exactly where it starts. You simply assume that vegans are the better people. And then you preach. That’s exactly what people dislike in vegans and similar people.
“Making a better choice” doesn’t “make you a better person”, necessarily.
And also like I said in my post, just accept that you’re not always going to be a perfect person. None of us are. You don’t have to get mad at anyone else for that.
Because y’all are fuckin annoying. Good for you on not using animal products. I’m glad you have something you care a lot about. I dont need to hear about it every second of the day though. Vegans IRL generally dont preach about it but online people get on their sop boxes more consistently.
I think what you’re experiencing online is a mix of loud minorities1 and online disinhibition2, not an accurate representation of vegans.
1: When there exists a minority in XYZ Group that is “louder” than the majority, causing people to associate XYZ group with the minority. 2: The phenomena of people acting out more violently, frequently, or pushy online when compared to being in-person, primarily due to anonymity
Usually it’s not veganism, itself. Rather, it’s the vegans.
Specifically the annoyingly loud, self-righteous, insists-everyone-must-join-them vegans.
Unfortunately, most people only really see this sort of vegan- rather than the more common, average sort of person who happens to also be vegan.
I do think they are annoying but a necessary type of annoying that will help humanity progress. The same type of annoying as people who claimed women had rights and African Americans were not inferior.
Humans treat this planet like shit, we have zero respect for living beings and the ecosystems. Anyone who gets angry if someone calls them out for supporting animal abuse is just immature and selfish. Like they’ll just deny they are doing something wrong.
I’ll probably never stop eating meat until stuff like Beyond Meat becomes mainstream. But I won’t pretend I’m not a straight up asshole to these animals for supporting their torture and murder. The times I’ve been called out I’ve embraced it instead of denying the obvious.
In 150 years humans will look back in shame at what we did to those animals.
Pointing out the consequences; the climate damage, all that is one thing. Respectful conversation.
Actively tossing out people’s lunches isn’t going to convince anyone of anything, though. Suddenly that person is now the face of vegans for everyone in the office.
Protests, sure. But when it comes to interpersonal relationships…. Yeah. Doesn’t help.
Ah yeha, agreed. If they get physical, fuck that. I’m sure that’s just like 1% or less of vegans. We can’t judge a whole group for the actions of a few.
I think some meat lovers get aggressively opposed to vegan ideas because they know that vegans are morally correct. I say this as a meat lover
I don’t think they’re more morally correct. Because I don’t think it’s morally incorrect to eat another animal.
We can debate the treatment of animals in how they are kept. But that’s another topic. And a wide one because it varies a lot depending on where you’re from.
Treatment of animals is very much a part of the moral issue. Causing suffering is clearly a moral issue. Also there are the environmental impacts to consider.
And again . That varies quite a lot depending on where the meat comes from.
To do what you do and just drag a giant blanket over everything is incredibly ignorant.
And I’m just really over the incredible hypocrisy. Eating meat is wrong cause an animal suffered, but wearing clothes made in a Vietnamese,chineese or Bangladesh sweatshop is ok. Because that only includes human suffering and slave like conditions.
It varies yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is more animal suffering and environmental damage getting protein from animal sources than plants. Also talking about ssweatshops is changing the topic and moving the goalposts as you did previously with eggs. That’s not a good faith discussion
Depends on who is farming the plants don’t you think? Not like there hasn’t been scandals about exploitation of workers in agriculture.
Not to mention environmental damage from over fertilizing and pesticides, and dumping of waste.
Not really. If you look at the data, ā pound of protein via meat is orders of magnitude worse in terms of environmental impacts. And that’s ignoring suffering.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652622043542
meals offered in the lunch service at an institutional food service establishment in London, UK over their whole life cycles.
Maybe you should actually read the studies you link.
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Just like with everything else that people make into a lifestyle or part of their identity. Most are cool, but there’s always a vocal minority of dillweeds that take it way too seriously or use it to judge others that aren’t part of their pack.
Z
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And the context is completely different. To get meat, you have to kill or harm an animal. There’s no wiggle room there.
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I edited my comment after I made it, but you have to kill an animal to get meat. There’s no debate around fetal development or rights of the mother vs. the child. There’s no religion involved. If you argue that torturing or killing animals doesn’t hurt them, you’re arguing in bad faith. Even people who eat meat won’t deny it. They just don’t care. You could just as easily frame vegans as the abortion activists surrounded by anti-abortion folks.
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You can see who the vegans are in this comment section by trying to make it some moral issue
You can see who isn’t vegan by the comments talking about vegans being annoying
IRL these groups don’t interact as much, if you bring both to a barbecue then you will find the above sentiment again
Veganism at its core is a moral stance. If not for the moral issues, these people would probably be vegetarian instead. That’s not to say that all vegans are the aggressive evangelist kind, but pretty much all vegans choose their diet out of moral concerns (in addition to health and environmental reasons).
That’s great you feel that way but
The other side doesn’t care/think about it/feel that way
The not in your face vegans aren’t in your face so they wouldn’t mention it and remain unknown so they don’t shape people’s perceptions
What “other side”? Vegans? I suppose there are some who are just sort of “cultural vegans” too, where they don’t have a moral stance, but are vegan because their friends or family are.
I’m not sure if maybe you’re reading more negativity in my comment than I meant. There’s certainly nothing wrong with animal welfare as a moral stance.
What “other side”?
Non-vegan
I don’t believe the people who aren’t vegan view their choice as a moral decision
Many people who aren’t vegan still choose free range eggs, organic beef, fair trade coffee and chocolate.
The 500 mile diet is absolutely a moral choice, even if it includes meat.
Albertans preferentially eating large amounts of Alberta beef is viewed as a virtue there. Veganism is viewed as immoral, unalbertan (amongst some communities).
What they really hate is being guilt tripped into changing their dietary habits.
EDIT: To be clear, I support veganism. I’m saying the people who react apprehensively to veganism are choosing willfully ignorant bliss. To choose a high meat diet is to deny reason and give into what the animal in us wants.
