Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL
From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.
I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them
It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic
Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.
Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!
The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.
I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.
Why do they believe you only find protein in meat?
Some essential amino acids are difficult to find in adequate quantities on a vegan diet. If you don’t vary your protein sources or make sure you are getting the right amino acids, then you may develop a deficiency, which can lead to poor health or even be fatal.
I’m not saying you’re incorrect. But I want to point out that many people who concern troll about how difficult vegan diets are to be healthy on are also people who don’t question how unhealthy their current choices are when it comes to consuming soda, energy drinks, red meat, other snacks, etc. Some people do, but most people who ask me about nutrition are not people who count their own calories or try to balance all their meals. It’s just as easy to be unhealthy as a non-vegan.
Holier than thou attitude from new vegans whose world view changed overnight and cognitive dissonance on the part of non vegan with the need to deflect than to make substantial changes.
I’ve never once in the last decade seen a single vegan post other than recipes. What I do see is constant posts about how “vegans are always throwing it my face/holier than thou”, “I’m gonna eat extra meat because vegans make me feel bad”. I really don’t think vegans are the problem, I think these fools fall for every single piece of beef industry propaganda that comes across their screens.
Back on reddit there were those who had alerts set every time the word came up across the site, then they’d brigade the fitness and health subreddits with their vegan crew to derail any conversations. It was really annoying. No clue if that’s still a problem because lolreddit
If you accept that there are moral/ethical problems with eating meat (contribution to climate change, health concerns, animals being killed and eaten, whatever), and choose to eat meat anyway, and encounter a vegan, what has to happen?
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice. Most people are cowards and protect the ego at any cost. Rather than shrugging and saying “yeah, i should eat less meat. Good for you taking the high road”, which requires accepting that you’re not being the best, you can instead grab onto any reasons why no it’s really them that sucks. That’s easier, more comfortable, and doesn’t require any painful introspection or changes.
It’s the same mechanism when people get mad at cyclists, pedestrians, people who go to the gym, people who don’t shop at Walmart, whatever. They’re doing something that makes you feel bad in comparison. Most people are terrible at that and will lash out instead of doing anything productive.
Alternatively, or maybe additionally, people are really tribal, and once they adopt the idea that vegans (or cyclists, or people driving small cars, or people wearing sandals, whatever) are in the outgroup, then they enjoy being hostile to them.
People are ego driven emotional morons. All of us. Me, too. It’s terrible.
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others. And create in- and out- groups via labeling.
Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food, because meat is heavily subsidized compared to vegetarian options. Also, because being vegan/vegetarian is not the default, many products are overpriced.
Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.
So it is not just about good or bad, it is also about privilege and class. So people should not go around making statements about other people making “worse” choices.
No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others.
I’m not sure we agree on what “lording over” is. Like if someone says “Sorry, I can’t eat that, I’m vegan” is that lording it over you? Pretty much every vegan I’ve encountered has been polite, and at about the level of someone with a food allergy. Sometimes they check the ingredients label.
You can accept that they are making a better choice,
That’s exactly where it starts. You simply assume that vegans are the better people. And then you preach. That’s exactly what people dislike in vegans and similar people.
“Making a better choice” doesn’t “make you a better person”, necessarily.
And also like I said in my post, just accept that you’re not always going to be a perfect person. None of us are. You don’t have to get mad at anyone else for that.
The same reason people hate leftists, feminists, trans athletes, “gamer girls”, people on welfare, blacks, etc. An image the right cultivated of the group, out of convenient easily-hateable annoying people in it that they could use to create a generalization/stereotype out of. It’s something that’s able to happen to any group, I could portray any hobbyist or activist in this way the same exact way as these “annoying” groups are portrayed, but the right is particularly willing to just flat out lie, slander, and cheat their way into making countercultural/anti-status-quo groups look as absurd as possible, to the point that the majority of the population falls for it (even those that don’t consider themselves to be conservative).
I’ll make a comparison. Conservative/“anti-sjw” thumbnails often have a picture of some angry-looking rainbow haired woman, usually the same few, in order to be like “look how irrational and crazy these feminazis are, she must hate men so much” and like 4 out of 5 of those times it’s a picture of a woman that was protesting a literal neo-nazi gathering or something, not some sort of radical crazy man-hating feminist. But the internet has conditioned the average person to look at someone like that and immediately think they’re an irrational “feminazi”, and conservatives showing these pictures everywhere and making 100 videos on the same person makes people subconsciously believe they’re rampant and have a massive (and bad) grip on society.
Same kind of thing happens with vegans, you have the same 10 or so internet vegans people use to portray veganism that conditions people to think poorly of the concept “vegan”, and when these influencers are confronted about it they say “I don’t hate veganism, I just hate the annoying vegans” then they go onto Twitter to complain about the vegans and how they’re irrational for not eating meat and their brains must be de-evolving or something. They know what they’re doing, but they can hide behind plausible deniability, and the majority of viewers fall for it.
I cook and eat vegan sometimes. I have a bunch of vegan friends.
Vegans on the internet are really annoying.
I said this on another thread posted by a very antagonistic vegan: Acting holier-than-thou, smug, and hostile is not a good way to convince people of your arguments. It pushes people away and biases them against you and the argument you’re making.
Far too often I see vegans outright shaming and harassing people for choosing to eat meat, or acting smug and superior because they are making “the right moral decision” and everyone else is lessor for thinking otherwise. I often see them call people “stupid” and “lazy” for not making the same choice they did.
Now, if I came here acting the same way, but I was championing eating only meat and shaming others for eating vegetables, I’m sure vegans would be upset for the same reason.
It’s gotten bad enough that a lot of people (admittedly myself included) are put off by vegans and their arguments. Not because the arguments don’t have merit (they certainly do) but because enough vegans have acted antagonistic or smug that they get shunned for it when the discussion gets brought up, because it’s what has become expected.
If you really want people to listen to you, you need to frame it from a friendlier and more down-to-earth position and not come across as hostile. The human mind tends to close itself off immediately when faced with hostility. This doesn’t just apply to discussions about veganism, but any discussion in general really.
And I have yet to encounter a single smug vegan. Not online, not offline.
But I’ve seen countless people like you fighting the just fight against vegan windmills (awesome Rügenwalder double reference for the German people here).
So where exactly are those vegans? Are they in the room with us right now? Or are you defining every mere mentioning of veganism as an attack because you deep down are afraid of actually having to confront the cognitive dissonance you’re living under?
With the Kirsti Noem controversy going on I’ve seen quite a few smug shit takes about veganism including (paraphrasing) “why are all you non-vegans outraged by this, it’s no different than murdering a cow for their meat”.
deleted by creator
I don’t hate veganism. It’s a dietary choice and that’s fine. What I hate is vegans. They’re always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They’re an annoying group of people and I just don’t want to have to deal with them.
Veganism is not a dietary choice it’s a lifestyle choice. Diet is just a big part of it but not the whole thing.
Then what would we call someone who makes the dietary choice but none of the other lifestyle choices? How would they identify in a restaurant setting? The answer is “vegan”. In the same way that I’m vegetarian but don’t care if I wear leather shoes.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that English lacks the words that would let you be precise. We need a word for people who are vegan in diet, and don’t care to bother the rest of the world about it. That’s why OPs question keeps coming up.
Plant-based is the label for people who follow a vegan diet (plant-based diet) but not a vegan lifestyle like avoiding leather.
Do people say that in restaurants? I’ve actually never heard it.
Generally, no. You might see it in grocery store labeling as a tactic to signal the food is okay for vegans but to try and not turn off someone who goes “ick” if something specifically says its vegan. But it’s because “vegan” means the same thing in dietary terms. Vegan food is suitable for both vegans and people on plant-based diets, because the other things vegans are concerned with aren’t related to diet so aren’t relevant to the context.
I think some meat lovers get aggressively opposed to vegan ideas because they know that vegans are morally correct. I say this as a meat lover
I don’t think they’re more morally correct. Because I don’t think it’s morally incorrect to eat another animal.
We can debate the treatment of animals in how they are kept. But that’s another topic. And a wide one because it varies a lot depending on where you’re from.
Treatment of animals is very much a part of the moral issue. Causing suffering is clearly a moral issue. Also there are the environmental impacts to consider.
And again . That varies quite a lot depending on where the meat comes from.
To do what you do and just drag a giant blanket over everything is incredibly ignorant.
And I’m just really over the incredible hypocrisy. Eating meat is wrong cause an animal suffered, but wearing clothes made in a Vietnamese,chineese or Bangladesh sweatshop is ok. Because that only includes human suffering and slave like conditions.
It varies yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is more animal suffering and environmental damage getting protein from animal sources than plants. Also talking about ssweatshops is changing the topic and moving the goalposts as you did previously with eggs. That’s not a good faith discussion
Depends on who is farming the plants don’t you think? Not like there hasn’t been scandals about exploitation of workers in agriculture.
Not to mention environmental damage from over fertilizing and pesticides, and dumping of waste.
Not really. If you look at the data, ā pound of protein via meat is orders of magnitude worse in terms of environmental impacts. And that’s ignoring suffering.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652622043542
meals offered in the lunch service at an institutional food service establishment in London, UK over their whole life cycles.
Maybe you should actually read the studies you link.
There’s a ton of vegans who exist without trying to force their way of life on everyone, but the ones who do dominate the conversation and can be off putting.
Just like with everything else that people make into a lifestyle or part of their identity. Most are cool, but there’s always a vocal minority of dillweeds that take it way too seriously or use it to judge others that aren’t part of their pack.
I’m not trying to be combative with this but want you to consider something. If you see the cruelty of factory farms and decide that its unethical to be killing and torturing animals in that way, but nobody else around you seems to care, would that not be a little upsetting? What does it mean to be taking it ‘too seriously’?
This argument is the same one anti-abortionists use.
And the context is completely different. To get meat, you have to kill or harm an animal. There’s no wiggle room there.
How is it?
Edit to address your edit: Still the same argument anti-abortionists use.
I edited my comment after I made it, but you have to kill an animal to get meat. There’s no debate around fetal development or rights of the mother vs. the child. There’s no religion involved. If you argue that torturing or killing animals doesn’t hurt them, you’re arguing in bad faith. Even people who eat meat won’t deny it. They just don’t care. You could just as easily frame vegans as the abortion activists surrounded by anti-abortion folks.
I’m saying that what you are saying is the same as anti-abortionists saying that abortion is murder.
It’s not going to convince anyone who doesn’t think the exact same as you on the subject because it relies on beliefs that not everyone has.
How would you frame the vegans as the pro-choice activists in your hypothetical situation?
Veganism is more or less a 1st world phenomenon. Most humans, especially in the past, did not have the luxury to choose what they could eat. They ate what they could get and if they got access to meat and animal products they ate it because it has high nutritional and caloric value. Even the vegetarian Indians who don’t eat meat foe religious purposes still have eggs, milk, etc.
It feels disconnected with the human struggle.
In addition, it’s sort of meaningless in the grand scheme of things. OK. You don’t eat meat to protect domesticated cows. In reality, those cows would not exist in the first place. So really, you’re advocating to eliminate the species of domesticated cattle.
In addition, our modern society requires massive amounts of energy which is often generated by fossil fuels. Even if a society uses 100% solar, they’re importing products from countries like China that burn coal.
So you’re pumping out carbon emissions that will inevitably result in mass extinctions anyway. It seems like a meaningless protest against the inevitable. You say let’s exterminate the cows to save them from suffering on one hand and with the other drive to work talking on your iPhone with the A/C turned up- contributing to the destruction of infinitely more animals.
The only real way to stop is for everyone to give up every modern luxury and live in a log cabin in the woods. And for the vast majority of the population to die off.
It just feels like pissing into the void but doing so with moral superiority.
Having said all that, I empathize with many vegans. But those are some thoughts on why people may look down on vegans.
Wow, you ticked like half of the Vegan Bullshit Bingo.
The opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy. Please engage, don’t just watch. Start wherever you like, but start!I looked through out of curiosity and I believe you can say with a bit of a stretch that I hit about 3.
I’m never going to go vegan. I was raised in a part of South America with a very strong cattle / meat culture. I don’t want to live without nice steaks every week.
If that means some animal has to live in what’s essentially slavery then it’s the price I’m willing to pay.
Just like we’re both willing to live with poor 3rd worlders mining lithium and cobalt for us in abysmal conditions so that we can communicate on our fancy electronic devices.
The system is a pyramid. Is it our fault we were born near the top? Reminds me of the part in the Bible, the rich man comes up to Jesus and asks him what he should do to get into heaven
Jesus says “sell all of your belongings, give the money to charity, and follow me”. What’d the rich man do? He cried.
The point is that people wanna be good and ethical but don’t actually want to give up quality of life. It’s not just veganism, it’s for everything. Capitalist/imperialist exploitation, climate change, etc.
Try to lead by example, sell your stuff and follow Jesus.
There are some very militant vegans out here on Lemmy, equating eating meat with rape and murder and generally being annoying without actually contributing to the discussions.
They are actively harming their cause. So much so, I suspect them of actually being trolls trying to make vegans look bad.
Or they are just dumb as a brick and don’t understand common discourse. That’s possible too.
Well if you support the rape and murder of animals (both common in animal agriculture) don’t be surprised when people get upset
Thank you for proving everyone’s point. This is the .01% I was talking about @[email protected]
Eh, sometimes it makes sense to just call things as they are instead of trying to tiptoe around peoples feelings.
If you don’t think artificial insemination is a form of rape/sexual violation, then idk what kind of meaningful discussion we can have. If you don’t think unnecessary killing is murder, then again idk what kind of meaningful discussion we can have. (Note that there’s not really any good reason for the term “murder” to only apply to humans. If someone kills your dog would you be opposed to the use of the word “murder” then?)
Do you refer to animals predating other animals as murder too?
Do those other animals have the biology that allows them to subsist on other foods and the higher thinking required to question the morality of their actions?
I do not like being told by someone that i need to become vegan because they have become vegan.
I don’t think you’ve understood the arguments for veganism lol
Of course proponents of a position/philosophy/political stace also subscribe to those beliefs. There are not many misogynists arguing in favor of feminism.
Counter argument: Problem is not too many cows. It is too many people.
So just kill yourself then, it’s literally that easy? Or are you suggesting to kill other people so you can keep enjoying your McTasty? Carnists are weird AF
You have restricted your diet, yet the hatred pores from your vegtable fueled/addled brain.
I think you have proven my point.
Thank you.
How have I proven your point? Your argument was to get rid of people, I just guessed you also offer yourself up? Otherwise what makes you think you can suggest to kill other people?
I think its the extreme. The idea of reducing meat consumption over eliminating it is not met kindly by many vegans and vegan communities. I also see a lot of down play of the nutrient challenge discussion. Now like anything on the internet the extremes tend to be the most vocal. I have personally known vegans who are pretty happy if people are even reducing meat consumption at all or being lacto/ovo pescatarians or such. Its really bad as sometimes the message is if your not going to go full on vegan than your personally responsible for destroying the planet (much like all responsibility for palastinian suffer is because joe bidens the one doing the genocidin) and you might as well eat meat at every meal. The reaction of this for non vegans is very often F these folks and you know what I think I will go out and have a triple bacon cheese burger right now because they taste great.
The reason ethical vegans don’t like reductionism is because it’s still fundamentally speciesist. It’s like if someone goes to see a dog fight every week, people get mad at them for supporting animal abuse, so they only go once a month instead. Is it technically better? Yes. Is it still fucked up? Also yes.