There is no exercise which occupies the average tanky’s mind more than explaining why a literal oligarchy run by a guy who sees himself as the fascist messiah envisioned by the guy who invented christian fascism, is actually totally socialist and critical support and shut up liberal america bad!
I dont think most tankies would say Russia is today socialist. 30% of employees in Russia work for the state in 2016 compared to 70-90% in 1985. And the biggest predisessor parties of Putin´s party United Russia were hard supported by the CIA and the US(because the parties were right wing and for capitalism and free markets etc. .) to win the russian 1991 and 1996 election before they started to rig election results.
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_sector_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Russian_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Russian_presidential_election https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/14o601y/oc_how_well_the_richest_top_1_have_been_doing_the/
They won’t say it’s socialist, but they still defend anything Russia does because it’s anti-western, which is more important for the current generation of tankies.
If thats the case i think thats stupid and i think many would call me a tankie.
The litmus test for me is whether you support/apologise for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
I dont support it i think it was crazy by Putin. But i still praise many things about the former Soviet Union and Maoist china and yugoslavia and cuba etc. . For example that everybody was garanteed a minimum income through the federal job guarantees and the low income inequality etc. .
That’s cool, sounds lke you are a based leftist, not a tankie.
It’s because these spaces have just been infested by Russian trolls and it’s super blatant. Lemmy.ml, at times, feels like it’s legitimately an intro course for shitty Russian trolls before they get moved on to Facebook and reddit.
Well now I feel so cultured.
I’m under 30, but I remember when Russia was the big bad in western politics. Now our fascist parties are aligning themselves with Russia? It’s very odd to me.
Oligarchy isn’t odd, its a predictible outcome of “trickle down”
To be fair modern Russia is significantly closer to the fascism MAGA wants than the USSR.
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I hate that “soviet MLs” is used as a label here, because the failure of the USSR is down to the undermining of the soviets.
The economy being centralised and then destroyed is why post-USSR states are disfunctional, and it’s the same vulnerability the EU faces.
Were the economies actually managed democratically, they might have been able to weather the storm instead of getting fucked over by the world bank and IMF.
Instead of cooperating to sort out their affairs post-empire, countries are expected to play monopoly and somehow magically not have the same end game as monopoly.
I hate that “soviet MLs” is used as a label here, because the failure of the USSR is down to the undermining of the soviets.
I mean, yes, but when most people use ‘Soviet’, especially in context of Russia and its history, they mean ‘The Soviet Union’, not the people’s soviets it got its name from and then subsequently neutered. It’s an unfair quirk of etymology or language development or whatever, but ‘Soviet’ as in ‘Of the Soviet Union’ is in far wider use than ‘soviet’ as in ‘of workers’ councils’.
Thank you! Workers councils actually run societies quite well
This is a bizarre take, even by PugJesus standards.
It would be like saying, “Oh, you claim to hate Nazism, yet you like West (or East) Germany which is still recovering from the effects of Nazism. Curious.”
Russia isn’t socialist to anyone who has developed object permanence. There’s no hypocrisy in someone hating socialism and liking Russia, because Russia isn’t socialist.
The only reason I can think why anyone would call Russia socialist is if their worldview still revolves around Cold War anti-communism and they haven’t figured out how to adjust or adapt their mental frameworks or rhetorical points since then. Which seems to include a fair number of confused liberals, apparently.
Another great demonstration of missing the point.
Oh, well thanks for the explanation, now I understand.
Fine, I’ll repeat myself:
“MAGA hats have no real reason to mistake the Nordic countries as socialist, but do; and every reason to mistake Russia as the product of ‘socialism’, including a number of still-nationalized industries and high public sector employment, a former KGB member as leader who constantly praises the Soviet Union, and a still-active Communist Party, yet (correctly) identify it as the kind of non-socialist traditionalist removed they’d love to live in. To them, ‘socialist’ just means ‘gives LGBT people basic rights’.”
That’s still complete nonsense. The Nordic countries also have publically owned industries, most notably, the oil industries responsible for much of their wealth. There’s as much of a case for them being socialist as there is for Russia, which is to say, not much of one at all.
But to cite Russia’s past socialism as a reason to call it socialist now is by far the most absurd thing about this meme and your argument. The reason that socialist government doesn’t exist anymore is because it was destroyed and replaced by the current government. You might as well call the US monarchist because it used to be a British colony. It’s completely insane.
But to cite Russia’s past socialism as a reason to call it socialist now is by far the most absurd thing about this meme and your argument.
Since reading comprehension is apparently in short supply on your end of things, let me help you out one last time:
every reason to mistake Russia as the product of ‘socialism’
yet (correctly) identify it as the kind of non-socialist traditionalist removed they’d love to live in.
To them, ‘socialist’ just means ‘gives LGBT people basic rights’.
So… you’re owning the right by pointing out that they don’t misinterpret something you think they should?
This take was a miss, sorry.
So… you’re owning the right by pointing out that they don’t misinterpret something you think they should?
To them, ‘socialist’ just means ‘gives LGBT people basic rights’.
Sorry, buddy, if you want any more help figuring this out, you’re gonna have to go ask a teacher; I don’t have the patience for it.
The excuse I get from more intellectual Republican friends is that socialism in countries like Sweden and Norway work because they are monocultural.
This is such a “tell me you’ve never been in the north” claim. XD
Ah.
“Ethno-national socialism” you might say, yes, I can see why they would support that.
russia isn’t socialist at all, cmon
Great job at missing the point.
Chuds typically say the Nordic Social Democracies are nice, but can only exist because they are small, and nearly ethno-states, because “they care strongly about helping their like-minded neighbors.” Hardly anyone thinks the Nordics are Socialist. Chuds are usually nationalists, so this fits neatly into their worldview, for why others can have it nicer while they currently cannot.
As for the Russian Federation, I think anyone can agree that it’s far from Socialist, and Shock Therapy absolutely destroyed Russia as Capitalists brutally plundered the remains of the USSR. Chuds like the Russian Federation because it is socially reactionary and highly Capitalist.
former soviet union
Ah, yes, classic american anti-communist propaganda.
It is pretty weird to call them “recovering from M-L” when M-L is how they industrialized and their current leaders economically looted the country into a state that can only be described as a kleptocracy with designs on restoring the Tsardom.
Especially when it’s been over thirty years since the collapse.
But, on the other hand, if it makes conservatives mad…
You are correct in that ‘recovering’ is a strong word. ‘Enduring’ the lasting effects would be more accurate.
Enduring the lasting effects of brown fascists taking over from red fascists? Like, sure, that’s inevitable when you create an immensely heirarchal state where absolute power lies in the government, but M-Ls didn’t irreparably damage the Russian economy.
They’re why it has one. The human rights abuses weren’t necessary to make it, but their current problems simply aren’t the fault of the Soviet industrialization programs, they’re despite it.
Unless you blame the Soviets for making so many tanks and artillery shells that it gave Putin false confidence in his ability to conquer a nation with a quarter of Russia’s population thirty years later even after they sold half of the stockpiles.
but M-Ls didn’t irreparably damage the Russian economy.
They’re why it has one. The human rights abuses weren’t necessary to make it, but their current problems simply aren’t the fault of the Soviet industrialization programs, they’re despite it.
I feel like we could have a long argument about this, but at the same time, I’m not in the mood and it’s not the main point of the meme anyway.
I disagree that the centralized, extractive system of the Soviet planned economy and its hyperfocus on heavy industry and neglect of basic civilian infrastructure in the Stalin and Brezhnev years were anything except absolutely ruinous to the long-term economic and physical health of what is now the Russian federation, with or without the collapse and ‘shock therapy’ of the 90s and the continued oligarchy of the 2000s and 2010s. You can refute that if you feel that’s objectionable, but I’m gonna leave it here.
“Russia used to have a different political system, therefore current-day Russia can’t be traditional.”
Or what exactly is the point here?
“MAGA hats have no real reason to mistake the Nordic countries as socialist, but do; and every reason to mistake Russia as the product of ‘socialism’, including a number of still-nationalized industries and high public sector employment, a former KGB member as leader who constantly praises the Soviet Union, and a still-active Communist Party, yet (correctly) identify it as the kind of non-socialist traditionalist removed they’d love to live in. To them, ‘socialist’ just means ‘gives LGBT people basic rights’.”
Modern Russia and the Soviet Union are very far from each other
In us units it’s like Thanos and Ultron
Both the far left and the far right adore Russia One of the few things where they’re united
This is the dumbest shit right here. Literally nobody, left or right thinks Russia is socialist today. Fuck MAGA dummies, but you are out of your mind if you think they like Putin or Russia because of ‘socialism’. Like, what are you even trying to say? Rednecks hated Russia in the 50s-80s so they aren’t allowed to like it now either? Was it good to hate Russia in the 50s-80s?
Libs think the USA lost the cold war.
Also lol “the most free market countries in Europe”
Libs think the USA lost the cold war.
What are you talking about?
Also lol “the most free market countries in Europe”
Ah yes a metric from the Heritage foundation, very academic. These countries with large nationalized industries are the most capitalist! 🤪
What are you talking about?
I’m talking about you, the memester, not knowing who won the cold war.
I don’t think you have as good a grasp of the assumptions underlying this meme as you think you do.
OK please enlighten me
Sure.
Liberals don’t think the Soviets won the Cold War, older ones just often can’t move past it, and the Heritage Foundation fucking loves free trade and hates anything close to social democracy, so when even they rank the Nordics as free trade friendly it means even they don’t feel comfortable lying that they aren’t.
And they fucking love lying about anything left of Mussolini.
Nordic countries aren’t socialist, in that workers don’t own all the means of production, but they own much more than countries that are often labeled as socialist, such as Venezuela and even China. As the Norwegian government describes it, “It is the people’s money, owned by everyone, divided equally and for generations to come.”
In Norway and Finland, the state is the largest employer, running the largest financial firm, mobile telecom, oil, and other modern industries. 1 in 3 people work for the government. The value of state-owned companies in Norway is well over 3/4 of the GDP, and worker rights in all Nordic countries far outpace those in any English-speaking plutocracy.
I’m guessing you’re familiar with Nordic model welfare and high tax rates. They also fund inventions, the type that are useful to humanity.
I can think of several reasons far-right think tanks attempt to attribute Nordic model’s success to the “free market” 😉
Ah, there’s the miscommunication.
https://www.heritage.org/index/pages/about
Their “economic freedom” index is a bit of weird one. If you look at their methodology section you’ll note they simply do not care that much about who exactly owns the industries, or at least it’s not weighted particularly significantly, as long as it is possible to invest in the country and that property is protected.
If you, in theory, had a country where 99% of the economy was controlled by the government but there was nothing stopping a capitalist building a factory or whatever there and trying to sell a better product that would presumably be a “free market” as far as the index is concerned.
The index doesn’t really care that much if the government does stuff, unlike your ancap types. It’s mostly weighted against regulation, sensible or otherwise.
Of course, one might note that some of their pillars are absolutely subjective measurements, and if you told me they put their fingers on the scales in favor of the whitest people alive that wouldn’t be particularly surprising.
Conservatives have a real hard-on for good ol’ fashioned autocracy
What conservative likes russia?
Too many. Tucker Carlson and his viewers come to mind.
“Fiscal conservatives” like the system of degenerate kleptocracy that dismantled the holdings of the Soviet Union and created some of the wealthiest oligarchs on earth. The rest see kinship with Russia in their dismal views on LGBT/sexual liberation, women’s rights, people of color, and the use of violence to pursue goals.
The ones who think what the tv tells them to think
There’s an idiot that drives up and down the beach drags here in San Diego with russian, Z, trump, maga, and don’t tread on me flags flying from the back of his truck. Every weekend for at least the past year and a half
