When given a choice between a millitary industrial neoliberal with a rainbow voting base and a fascist who is one elon musk golf session away from banning HRT, the best option is certainly not to refuse to play out of protest
still don’t wanna vote? vote 3rd party!
Um, no. A 3rd party vote is literally just a vote for Drumpf💀
Simple game theory
Harris: +1. Because she actually is a good person. The only people saying anything else are Republicans really . Don’t forget she used to fight for sexual assault victims and such (look at her past actions). Walz is just as good as a person
Trump: -1: no explanation needed
Anyone else: 0 points
It’s only logical to vote for Harris/Walz. Unless you actually believe trump . But, if you use the arguments Trump has used against Biden and Harris, you’ll see all of them work equally well on him. He is sleepy, he is old, and he is a criminal
Amend that, it’s also -1 points to anyone else in a swing state because any possible vote not for the Dems is one that helps the Repubs get closer to the day one dictatorship.
Those swing states include Texas, Virginia, NC, Nevada, Georgia, Wisconsin, PA, Ohio, New Hampshire, Michigan, Maine, Alaska, Iowa, Indiana, FloridA, and Arizona.
Some are unlikely (Indiana, Texas) but all are possible (maybe Senate only for TX). The repubs are losing strength, maim ‘em so better progressive policies can grow. If you’re in CA or NY or CO or MN its still not exactly 0, you should vote local; you may be able to get 3rd party in in places or resist a local house Republican.
The best way I’ve seen anyone put it is that by the time the election arrives, you are exclusively in damage control mode. If you want actual change, you have to have it done by getting your personal choice voted in during the primaries.
And I’d add - get active the other 364 days of the year.
If we want better options we first need ranked choice voting and we need to get money out of politics. And none of that is going to happen if our only political action each year is voting.
Proud to say that in Colorado, ranked choice voting is on the ballot this year! It’s even supported by the big political names here, including the governor.
Exactly! They’re putting in the work there and getting some fantastic things done. Lots of other great stuff on that ballot too.
At local level. Organize school board, dog catcher, judges, city council, planing commission, library board, community college board, do what the right wing does
do what the right wing does
Maybe with just a little less cross burning, lynching, and religious extremism.
This is really key, though the state level is probably most important. If your voting activism doesn’t go beyond the presidential election, it’s performative at most. A third party candidate without members of their party is state houses and Congress is going to be fairly ineffective even if they somehow did do the impossible and get elected.
fr
We had a primary?
Yes. And Biden was chosen, which includes Harris being next up if Biden couldn’t perform the duties of president for any reason. If Democrats didn’t want the status quo, they should have chosen someone other than Biden.
How did nobody notice Biden’s brain no longer works if there was this robust primary process you describe and we all just missed it?
we all just missed it?
You missed it. I was well aware of it, and concerns about Biden at the time, and I don’t even live in the US.
Not everyone else’s fault if you don’t engage with the political system until less than a month before the election. That’s what this entire post is about.
The party not allowing debates and threatening everyone to stay out so only an ice cream millionaire who was leaving congress anyway did a quixotic “run” in an attempt to hide how bad Biden had gotten is not a real primary. Just because you don’t grasp verbal irony isn’t everyone else’s fault.
Honestly we just had an election where I live where the options were (not to this extreme at all) but pretty similar in the “not great” vs “fucking awful” choices. Of course we had an actual third party with good policies but they had no chance. The race was so close here that in some areas the difference in votes was in the hundreds for the top two choices. They’re still doing recounts and I guess we’ll see, but every single fucking vote has counted on this.
I honestly don’t believe that not voting is ever going to work. If we want change we need an actual fucking revolution. Not voting, in American’s case, would just allow for the literal militants to take over and then you really won’t even have the choice to protest anything in the future.
We need to focus on prefigurative politics, I.e, build the world we want to see with direct action, unionizing, and mutual aid, since voting and governments are never going to do it for us.
However, who is in charge of your country will make those prefigurative politics more or less hard, or even impossible (can’t imagine much of the above going on in Nazi Germany…)
I think it goes without saying that it will be less hard under Harris.
the last thing Mitch McConnell sees before his ping hits 8000
Ted Stevens.
“The internet… isn’t a dump truck. It’s a series of tubes.”
Pictured: Newly-unveiled biologically-engineered troops of the National Guard enforcing the new State Ideology of Obamunism in Mar-a-Lago (2009, colorized)
this is my American Dream™
This is what’s in Alex Jones’ dreams
for those, like me, who can’t remember where they’ve seen the original image before, it is the necrons from Warhammer 40k :)
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Necrons#Necrons_in_the_41st_Millennium
So the neocons of the 2000s are the C’tan, providing neoliberals with unending life by running against fascists and also necrosteel bodies but at the cost of their souls. One day we will overthrow the gods and place their shards into our doomsday weapons.
Obamna prisom
If you keep voting for the lesser evil rather than destroying this fucked system, eventually your choices will be between a fascist and a fascist. Y’all would rather waste time delaying the inevitable, rather than working to disempower and destroy these exploitative and oppressive systems.
Hey now, let’s be fair. It’s not just ashes, it’s also going to be blood. And between 2 and 3 of the 4 cats are literal Nazis.
Guys guys if we just vote for the genocidal cop it will fix our problems, I promise. It will be different this election, just trust me.
Y’all can have fun playing moral high ground playing the same old lines every election like a broken record. Waste your time playing politics and voting for the lesser evil. For me, if its a choice between two evils, I think I’d rather not pick.
I will not sacrifice trans people, genocide continues under both yet only Trump would ban HRT or make their lives even worse. It’s something that’s better than nothing. By design, Americans have two choices, take the one that keeps minorities alive. (They probably agree with your hopes, as a bonus)
A bit ago I interacted with an anarchist who refused to vote because he had everything he wanted now (right to gay marriage, specifically) but he didn’t even know that’s only accessible due to a supreme court ruling and not a law. It can disappear just as quick as abortion. Just token vote for the party that may manage to codify that into law or at least won’t ban it. People will die without marriage equality or HRT, they need to live their life before your fabled collapse occurs.
If you can’t manage empathy, you are a libertarian in the “fuck you, I got mine” worst way. No dreaming of the collapse, no advocating for radical change, just a libertarian. Be better, do both harm reduction now and foment the future collapse.
I do harm reduction in the streets. You do harm reduction by sucking politicians dicks. Don’t act like the anti-trans shit Trump does doesnt affect me.
This same poster tried the same argument with me. They seem pretty one note. I think it’s best to not engage.
God’s most in denial libertarian 😞 refuses to check a box on some paper every 4 years because of anarchist cosplay mind gymnastics that’s come to the conclusion if you vote at all you’re whole heartedly endorsing candidates while simultaneously slowing the collapse into bloodshed where the fabled anarcho-society can rise from the ashes of every trans person and many more.
Your logic lacks empathy, you need to do introspection to make your beliefs consistently ethical. Claiming to help people on the ground while not helping people on the ground indirectly with basically no effort is incongruous - even if you believe the government should not exist, it does rn, and we live in a society where it can hurt or help the same people you claim to. Nudge the fabric of society that you interact with through fantastically minimal effort and never tell another anarcho-soul in your Matrix chat if they’re still doing a not voting circlejerk because goberment exist grr
Are you okay? This reads as unhinged.
Of course! And if you don’t pick, no one at all gets hurt or affected by that choice in any way! It totally only affects you! It’s not like you have a moral obligation to not actively make the lives of others worse, right? It’s not like choosing to not vote is also a choice that requires moral justification! Refusing to act is totally different morally than acting in a way that harms others! I can’t wait to feel so right when I watch the news of the military camps and the anti-trans lynch mobs! Sure, I mean I didn’t take 5 fucking minutes out of one day every 4 years to mark an X on a sheet of paper that could have prevented that from happening to them, but it’s not like I had any power to do anything about it, right? … Right?
I am not doing nothing, I’m just not voting. And you are a privileged asshole to think I am not affected. I choose to make a difference outside of electoral politics. Thats your issue. You think the only way to make a difference and protect people is by voting.
You think it’s impossible to make a difference by voting and also by doing other things. I think voting to keep things from getting worse is the bare fucking minimum. If you can’t even take a few minutes out of one day to mark a sheet of paper to keep things from getting worse I don’t believe for a second are you doing anything to make things better.
You are picking a fight with someone who does more than the bare minimum? Can you honestly say that you put this kind of energy to people who won’t do anything but the bare minimum? People who vote but do nothing else to help others? No I’m probably not better than someone who votes and does other stuff to help people. But I am certainly better than the people who all they do is vote. So how about you put your “lesser of the two evils” perspective to work and go agitate people who aren’t out there in their communities and helping people in need.
I didn’t say anything about voting, I’m just trying to be realistic about who else is looking forward to the collapse of the current system. If you want to roll the dice on that then you should at least be honest about who else is sitting at the table.
I ain’t waiting for society to collapse. I practice prefiguration, meaning I build the infrasture and systems needed now to both take power away from the capitalists and politicians. This shows people we do not need these systems of oppression and lays the foundation needed for systemic and social change. Most anarchists are not twiddling their thumbs waiting for shit to hit the fan, they are out providing mutual aid and trying to build this foundation. We are not opportunists.
Of course! And the way we do that is let the fascists win! It all makes sense now! We just have to let enough of our trans homies die and let Trump use the military to round up millions of people and put them in camps first! It’s the blood sacrifice we need in order to usher in the (insert political system most Americans don’t understand in the slightest and have negative views toward that will totally improve if we are instrumental in letting Hitler 2.0 win) revolution! It’s just a good thing I am privileged enough to not have to be one of those rounded up in camps or lynched in the streets or die during the civil war / revolution! Why doesn’t anyone else see it? We just have to deliberately let enough people die first in order for the politics-fairies to grant me the exact system I imagine!
/S
I’d love to see what your suggestion is for “working to disempower and destroy” the systems exactly while letting fascists take power. It’s not like we could ever do both, right? We could never vote to keep things from actively getting worse and also advocate for a better world, right? It’s not like the Dems would move right if they lost this time like they have done every single time before, right?
I’m saying this one more time, so all you libshit assholes understand. I am not unaffected by the election results. I work through direct action to help others. I work to build systems of cooperation and disempower state and capitalist systems at a grassroots level. You can do things without the state and I wont let democrats and the government hold me and the people I care about hostage. My rights and others rights will not be a carrot on a stick for politicians to dangle in front of my face. If any of you actually cared about stopping fascism and protecting people you would be on the ground feeding and defending the homeless, building radical unions, doing community defense, and more. You all forget that voting never stopped fascism before, and it won’t now. You are no better than the conservatives and fascists as you both threaten and abuse those that don’t want to follow your regime.
Oh yes, the guy who can’t even take 5 minutes to vote is totally devoting his free time to making things better. Do you think any of the other shit you talked about will be easier under Trump than Harris? You are choosing to let things get worse for the people you claim to care about just so you can feel morally superior by not “participating”. News flash, choosing to not vote is still a choice with consequences for the people you are virtue signalling about. Choosing not to pull the lever doesn’t make you not morally responsible for the people who chose not to save.
Yeah youre right. The person who doesnt vote does use their free time to help those in need. Personally I feel like thats better than the people who do the opposite. People who all they do is vote and then moral grand stand as if they did anything impactful. Cause I run into a lot more of those than I do of people like me. Too many people who feel like voting is enough and they can just vote and forget. How about you go pick fights with them, rather than removeding about people who are doing work but just dont want to play the voting game?
For those wondering about Obama’s last name: Here is a mathematical proof
I vote Jagmeet Singh
And remember to vote for whoever you want. Just because you vote third party doesn’t mean your vote is wasted or to vote for somebody else because who knows who you would have voted for if it wasn’t for third party. Those people that say that shit can fuck off.
Edit: y’all are just as bad as maga losers. If I don’t vote for your guy, it’s a wasted vote. Just go out and vote, period, for whoever you want. Ignore all these people trying to get you to vote for their person. Vote for whomever YOU like. Nothing wrong with endorsing a candidate but trying to make someone look stupid or evil for voting is really pathetic.
Either Harris or Trump are going to win the election. Not voting for Harris is voting for Trump. Yes, it fucking sucks, but especially if you’re a woman or a queer person, really think about whether you actually think it doesn’t matter which one wins.
Voting is not an endorsement of a candidate. It’s a tool. Don’t let them take away your rights while you’re waiting for the perfect candidate that will never come.
Charitable read: I think they’re talking in general, not just for the president. voting third party is actually pretty viable in certain areas of the country for certain state positions
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yes but also if you’re in a swing state maybe don’t vote third party for the executive office. Rn the thrid party persidential candidates aren’t super strong, and the bulk of political momentum is bipartisan. Local and state gov is a totally different situation depending on your state.
Good point. A candidate from a party that doesn’t really have a presence in any level of government and especially zero seats in congress will probably never have a realistic chance of winning the presidential election, barring some exceptional circumstances. If you like a third party, trying to make it viable at the local level and moving up from there seems to be the only realistic option to me.
like the working families party, who actually have some substantial influence in the new york area
Working Families is actually stronger than the democrats out here. I vote WF everywhere their name pops up. They got governors in out here in Oregon.
I’m a big supporter of the working families party. They rule. I honestly think they have the best chance of any of the third parties of eventually becoming a viable player in the American political sphere
(Also WF backed Harris/Walz, they’re not dumb enough to try to tamper with the big race.)
it’s such a smart move. best third party by far
empowering parties in this way could pave the way for future third party presidential candidates
Except it is wasted because there is literally zero chance a 3rd party candidate will win the presidency. If we’re talking lower offices, then maybe, but if you’re not voting Harris then you are directly assisting Trump.
There is value in showing third parties are growing more popular. It’s the first step that needs to happen for a third party candidate to become truely viable.
And yet, if there was ever a time where that isn’t worth it, it’s when fascists have a high chance of winning. Trump is not a right wing liberal; he wants to destroy the liberal world order that America controls just so no one can threaten his dictatorial power at home.
That may seem like it could benefit leftists elsewhere, but he wants to go to war with neighbors and bully other countries even harder than the liberal empire did. Where the American empire leaves, the Russian empire will take its place. All the while, an old man with no desire to leave a lasting legacy for his family or country is in control of the most powerful war machine on earth.
The first step that needs to happen is building up a third party through local politics, not ignoring politics for 3 years and 11 months and then suddenly expecting a third party to become viable.
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“If you don’t agree with me 100% you must be against me.”
Oddly enough the same thing “3rd party” voters complain about Democrats doing.
Also, for people who want to succeed it’s odd I only hear about “3rd party” in October every 4 years. I’m sure in January you’ll still be talking about the importance of building a 3rd party right?
Edit: I don’t know why your post got removed, maybe you were banned for something else, but for the record: I’m not a Democrat, but I’m a realist. I would love for there to be a viable 3rd party, but that’s not going to happen in the next 2 weeks and allowing Donald Trump to become elected is going to actively make that less likely. Considering what happened on Jan 6th with minimal consequences, if Donald Trump gets elected you might even lose the option of a 2nd party.
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any vote not for Harris is a vote for trump.
any vote not for Harris is a vote for trump.
That’s not how tallying responses works at all. If you can put a tick in “Apples” or “Pears” on a list that collects the nominal data for fruit choice, you writing in “Sausages” is neither a vote for Apples nor for Pears.
Trump actually gets votes through 1) electoral fraud of various kinds, some of them still legal because the status quo is shit, and 2) appealing to bigots by being a huge bigot. Voting third party, or not voting at all, is not actually the problem. Focus on removing people from society who want bigots in power, and also focus on making electoral fraud impossible.
Not if they were gonna vote trump instead
Literally no. If they were gonna vote Trump instead but decided to go with Harris, their vote is worth the same as someone who would always vote Harris or the vote of a leftist who decided on damage reduction.
Any voting system flattens our personal motivations into a single action. Any statement you’re looking to make is moot unless you have a massive campaign to make it clear outside of the ballot box. Even then, the establishment can downplay and misinterpret your motivation as not being representative or as less important than what they want to believe.
There’s no better way to translate our will into results. Any system that doesn’t use free and fair voting can be tainted and colored by bias, making it impossible to ever undermine the will of the establishment. They will always choose to believe whatever is most convenient, but votes can deliver a reality shock that forces them to adjust their behavior, even if they never change their minds. The only other thing capable of that is violence.
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I’m down for leaving people to vote for who they want, as long as they allow their protest votes to weigh heavily on their consciences when January comes around and we suddenly live in the fourth reich
I’ll never pretend to respect their decision. They might not even accept they were wrong when they’re inside the gas chambers. Besides, them feeling guilty is no justice for dooming people to death. It would be an injustice nobody could ever set right.
This comment has a dismissive tone to it. I’m not a fan.
I don’t like being dishonest about how actions make me feel, especially when we are talking about the election of a blatant fascist who wants to deport me to Mexico and then invade it. The stakes are too high for me to not make my frustration clear. Them doing nothing to prevent it is dismissive of my very life.
I’m just being cheeky I don’t respect it either. Although I truly do hope it weighs on them
Remember: the only people who say this want to see Trump win. You can vote with your conscience all you want, but it’s only mathematically possible for only one of two parties to get elected.
If third parties or independents actually wanted a shot, they’d put in the work outside of elections, building coalitions and locally from the ground up.
That’s probably the dumbest take I have read yet. If I wanted trump to win, I would vote for him.
Your motivation doesn’t matter, only the result of your action.
Your motivation doesn’t matter, only the result of your action.
That’s a nihilistic argument. The result of human action is dying. If I had children, they will die one day regardless of what I do, regardless of what their other parent does, regardless of what their extended family does, regardless of what their teachers do, regardless of what society does.
And, yet, intentions matter. Someone voting third party because that’s what they believe in is not an immoral intention that destroys the universe.
Why yes, I am a nihilist. I’m a nihilistic hedonist who chooses to value all types of human happiness the most. It’s utilitarian at its core, but I also don’t believe in certainty about anything. We can only pick the best option from the limited information we have, and I believe the best option is that which allows people to live the fullest lives. This involves making our short time on this earth as full as possible.
I don’t think the person is making a moral error in the decision to vote 3rd party, but in refusing to accept the likely reality. It might not even be a moral error that leads to their stubbornness. They may have been taught something that prevents them from changing their mind.
I don’t say “it doesn’t matter” because I wish to blame them. I have no faith in those value judgements holding much power. I’m saying that on a mechanical level, the outcome of this vote will be one option or another. We can believe whatever we want about the world, but the world will simply do what it does. It has no reason to conform to our understanding of it.
Not adjusting our thinking to fit reality will keep us from making the best choices. I want progress, not the belief that I’m making progress. The desire only points to results.
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They are all so against it but have no problem voting for it. It’s disgusting really. And they have the nerve to try make me look like the bad guy in this thread. There’s a bunch of shitty people here.
You’re not a “bad guy.” You just refuse to accept reality. A fool is not a villain, but they can cause comparable damage.
You just refuse to accept reality.
The reality is that humans are going to keep performing actions which limit their own survival.
True 😞
Just think if everyone voted for what’s right and not because someone online is calling them a fool if they vote different.
Obviously you believe I’m not voting for what I think is right, except I actually am. I’m not Harris’ biggest fan and thought she was a mid Senator, but she was probably the conservative dem I would’ve been the least upset about in the 2020 primary. She’s far better than Biden, who only beat out the actually billionaires in my ranking.
On top of that, she manages to be the best option for president on the ballot in my state.
I despise the green party for focusing so exclusively on the presidency. It makes me think they aren’t serious about accomplishing anything outside of thoughts and prayers. On top of that, Stein is shit as an individual politician and my view of her worsens with every run.
The only other left wing 3rd party is the openly tankie party, and I’m not big on those that lend support to empires for simply not being American. I’m not voting for RFK Jr., Capitalists, or Homophobes, so Harris is actually the best choice in my view.
The president shouldn’t be as powerful or important, and quite frankly, we’ve been more successful working within the Democratic party than outside of it. The 2 party system will not go away without election reform done by working within the parties. It’s shit democracy, but the only right thing to do is play with the cards we’re dealt.
Wow. So brave. Watch out, don’t cut yourself on all that edge
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Jill Steinyou are actually voting for Trump. Stein knows where her funding comes from, and who those funders want to win, and allows that all to happen.Not trying to attack or anything, I just don’t understand the logic of voting for someone who actually is just consciously being a spoiler candidate so the worse one will win.
You are voting for Trump.
im sorry i love greeen policy but jill “ran the green party into the ground” stein???
Obama stone
