How is it any people cannot put themselves in that place with imagining? Even animals could identify with what would not be desirable. Humans should have the sensibility to know they would not want what the animals being used are put through, we can likewise choose to not have anything to do with that, and we can already find out ourselves that there are ways to be very healthy this way without products from animals. And the same amount of use of resources for it and contribution to damage to environments with loss of species does not need to be continued then. https://healthyaging.emory.edu/could-eating-30-plants-a-week-be-the-answer-to-better-health/
OP, per Rule 3, posts with an image of text should have a transcription in the body or the alt-text.
Since I totally dropped the ball and missed this by nearly a day, I’ll make one myself:
Cattle are killed at 12 months. Cattle can live 20 years. Pigs are killed at 5 months. Pigs can live 20 years. Chickens are killed at 5 weeks. Chickens can live 10 years.
These animals that you are paying to be tortured and killed are babies. They have lived only a fraction of their lives and what they have endured would make any sane person weep.
Please, in the future, be mindful of this rule. Making the world accessible for everyone is a worthwhile cause and based on the same principles of empathy and equity that veganism is.
Chickens are processed at 10-16 weeks depending on breed. They are not tortured when processed. They are tortured when they are alive. Be upset at factory farming not eating meat. A properly raised and processed bird doesn’t suffer and has a happy life. Problem is, that costs a lot more.
Source: raise and eat my own chickens and eggs
Eh… It depends on what your process is, but most broiler chickens are killed at factory type farm operations at 5 weeks. The real questionable statistic in this is for cows, which rarely are slaughtered before they reach 24-28 months.
Be upset at factory farming not eating meat. A properly raised and processed bird doesn’t suffer and has a happy life. Problem is, that costs a lot more.
I think it’d be a fair criticism to say that most Western diets contain entirely too much meat, and that is a problem not only for humans, but a huge problem for the environment.
It wouldn’t be possible to ethically source enough meat to meet the current global demand. So imo having a meat heavy diet is a valid criticism. The morality of actually eating meat doesn’t even have to come into the equation to determine that our current diets are unsustainable and actively harmful.
The way the word “processed” is used so casually is really saddening.
If you’re going to do this at least be honest about it instead of hiding behind these words to make it seem less terrible. You’re killing and dismembering these birds.
Honestly i could not care less how you frame it. Words are just words and somebody could just as well say euthanazied and prepared and it would mean the same thing.
I personally find this kind of things extremelly naive. Prey animals life is horrible and filled with constant dread of everything even without human intervention.
Reason why im against eating meat is because meat industry is bad for enviroment and modern day humans, at least in developed countries dont need that industry to survive.
Sure doesn’t bother me and I kill and butcher my own animals.
Eating flesh requires factory farming to be viable at a scale large enough for billions of humans. It’s literally impossible for every human that eats chicken flesh to raise their own chickens, this is a non-starter.
I’m not so sure about that.
Almost sounds like industry propaganda to prevent us realising we each could raise our own chickens.
Could convert a wall to be a chicken farm.
‘what if you put a battery farm in your apartment’ top 10 dumbest ideas of all time contender.
Yeah, I suppose you could raise chickens in a confined space where they’d be unhappy and unhealthy.
That’s the same problem with extra steps.
Just stop eating them. It’s way easier and cheaper than becoming a backyard farmer anyway.
I mean maybe but we could make it better allow people to raise birds in their yard for eggs and stuff. People just don’t want to.
But not everyone could actually do it - a lot of people don’t even have yards, or share yard-space with neighbors, or have other animals that wouldn’t be safe around chickens. A lot more people don’t have the time or energy to modify their yard to actually be a reasonable enclosure for a chicken with enough space for her to be healthy and happy, or to clean up after her or feed her or take care of her when she’s sick. This can’t be a solution to factory farming for the majority of humanity, it’s not even worth discussing.
Also, I actually had a chicken when I was young! She’s why I’m vegan, too. I realized I didn’t like the idea of killing her because she was my friend, no different than killing a pet dog or cat. I think, if more people raised chickens, they’d also realize that they don’t want to kill their friends. It’s easy to have empathy for a sweet innocent animal that you care for and would never hurt you.
I think we should normalize pet chickens, because I think people would start to see it as no different than killing 16-week old dogs.
Moved goalposts.
No I didn’t. My goalpost was “not everyone could raise chickens, factory farming is the only way for everyone to eat meat.”
And that’s a fact.
Removed by mod
Did you know they call human flesh “long pork”?
It’s humans who have selectively bred them for taste. Modern chickens collapse under the weight of their own muscles. Stop victim blaming and trolling.
They breed for size and growth not taste.
They selectively bred them for size and feed efficiency, not taste, specifically the Cornish cross and other adjacent breeds. Try a heritage breed raised on dirt and in the sunlight. Now that’s a tasty chicken.
Just a nitpick on the numbers. It very much depends on environment, species, the farmer, and other factors as to when animals are harvested. I only farm vegetables personally today. But I know a lot of farmers. I imagine it also varies by country as well. If you want to make a good defense against animal products to an audience accustomed to them, being accurate can be important
Friends looked at me weird when I pointed out I’ve eaten babies.
… Then I pointed out what I meant.
Then, with their ignorance shattered, they looked at themselves weird too.
and everybody clapped!
?
Ah. Thanks.
I had that happen [non-sarcastically] last night when kickbanned a troll from an irc chan I have ops in. I’d even managed to slip in a “Sorry if anyone liked him” before the applause started. Making the world lighter, eliminating one narcissistic troll and flying monkey at a time.
Don’t post images of text
Pinned a transcript as hopefully a passable compromise. I screwed things up by not checking for alt-text when I saw this post earlier, so I won’t punish the OP and commenters for it.
And citations?
I cant stand how ppl downvote a vegan post in a vegan space.
There are no lies here. We farmed animals growing up. If thier early death makes you uncomfortable, stop eating animal products.
This post is in global feed.
The audacity!
Good
Probably because this post is ableist and possibly AI generated slop?
If they linked to a good article, they’d get upvoted. Post an image of text, and you get immediately downvoted
Up carrot.
Vegans: Make a community for themselves
Meat-eaters: See block button. Choose to downvote/comment against it instead.
If posts about veganism are that offensive to you, just block and move on. If there were a com about meat-eating, that’s what I’d do with it.
Okay, all you wonderful, reasonable people, I’m ready for your downvotes!
It’s just a shame it always has to be this 6 year old “meat is murder” mixed in into the delicious vegan recipes.
Now This is how you get downvoted BTW 😉 /j
Meat-eaters: See block button. Choose to downvote/comment against it instead.
They hate when others speak the truth, which - naturally - makes them look bad. They can only feel good about themselves if the truth is supressed and never spoken out loud.
It’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation
Some people get upset when they perceive someone else as being “better” than them. Ego is too fragile to handle this and too brittle to change, so they lash out at the source of discomfort.
I’m vegan. I chose to downvote and to report to mods.
We’re better than this low effort shitpost.
I admire your discipline. I usually fuck around in meat eating communities until I get banned.
nobody cares or gets offended there though so… yeah. nobody cares
And bring some more egg rolls while you’re at it!
Because you’re obviously the bigger man ;)
I’m fucking huge, idk how manly I am.
Vegans: Make a community for themselves
Meat-eaters: See block button. Choose to downvote/comment against it instead.
Oh nooo, our echo chamber is being invaded by discussion!
Counterpoint: western society itself is a carnist echo chamber. We’re surrounded by their views most everywhere we go. All we want is a little space online where we don’t have to be drowned in it.
Oh, we’re drowning.
Does anyone force you to eat meat? Are you offended by the mere idea of a t-bone steak?
If yes to the first: you’re an actual victim.
If yes to the second: you’re drowning yourself, nobody screams about a genuine carnivorous diet, but I’ve never seen a vegan who just sits down at a meal and doesn’t berate everyone at the table that eats meat.
Fuck this kind of victim-complex delusion.
I’ve never seen a vegan who just sits down at a meal and doesn’t berate everyone at the table that eats meat.
(Emphasis mine)
Exactly. You didn’t see them. They were there, but you didn’t notice because they didn’t say anything.
Bullshit. You’re the one screaming.
Does anyone force you to eat meat? If yes to the first: you’re an actual victim.
No mention of the actual victims of carnist assholery.
Also, you’ve never seen a vegan who just sits down and doesn’t berate everyone?
Yeah, no shit? It’s a self fulfilling prophecy; if someone doesn’t announce their veganism, then you’re not going to know they are vegan. Duh.
Despite being vegan for 6 years, I’ve never heard another vegan bring up the conversation at any dinner table, with and without carnists. It’s always carnists who want to ask questions, and for what it’s worth, they’ve also done so in good faith.
I have shared meals with vegans who don’t do what you describe. Almost all of them in fact don’t do what you describe
Okay cool, we both have confirmation bias, just because you know some apples are good, doesn’t mean the whole batch is.
Just because you have never seen an apple doesnt mean they don’t exist is better
I am not confirming anything other than I have a different experience.
I’m sharing an experience for the record that there are vegans who aren’t assholes the way you describe them to be as that is an incredibly popular stereotype. An unhelpful stereotype. It also includes that I have encountered your stated experience and not denied that it can be true
I thought it would be helpful for other people to hear that from a non vegan meat eater who has had plenty of healthy encounters with vegans and that just because someone is vegan it doesn’t make them unpleasant people the way you seemed to me to be arguing.
Ill be here arguing with people but begrudgingly welcomed while you will just get eventually ignored or banned completely and then you will contribute nothing to the discussion. Which is perhaps for the best then if that’s how it turns out. But maybe I’ll get banned. Either way It won’t really affect me much, but seems like you have a need to scream at people and that seems like it will cause you some personal problems.
Good luck
Since they’ve been reported for Rule 5 multiple times, I’ll note that I’ve left their comments up because they elegantly capture “this is why everyone hates vegans”, “how do you know someone’s vegan? they’ll tell you”, and the inane misconstrual that vegans, not the animals, are the victims vegans are trying to defend, and I don’t want the surrounding comments deprived of the whiny context they’re calling out. It’s always a balancing act of what to do with a vegan bingo caller. Sometimes it’s misconceptions from people arguing in good faith; sometimes it’s useless trolling; sometimes it’s whatever the hell this is.
Wow, three whole paragraphs of ‘no u’ and ‘get banned’ instead of just reporting me? You sure you’re not the one that needs to scream at something? Get bent, and continue to be a prefect example of why people hate vegans as a whole.
I’ve never seen a good faith argument against veganism in my life. It’s all trolling and tired “jokes.”
I don’t believe there are any good arguments against veganism, but there are plenty of bad arguments for it.
The only good argument I know against veganism/vegetarianism these days is that meat tastes good. It’s the only thing stopping my ADHD ass from taking the time to change my habits.
The only good argument I know against veganism/vegetarianism these days is that meat tastes good.
If “the sensory experience is good” is enough of a justification on its own, then a whole lot of other things are coming along for the ride.
Plant based food is lowkey adhd friendly, way easier to cook, shorter cook times, less concern about food safety (raw chicken and eggs, fish parasites, etc), fewer smells to contain. Also for some reason I’ve had my tofu go bad even one month afyer expiration date lol
I get the habit thing though. These days I know how to make stuff taste good without animal products but it’s a learning process, no one teaches us this stuff because society is carnist. I found that the framing helps, instead of “i need to change this”/" i need to stop this" it was easier to be excited about new recipes and being as budget friendly as possible.
Exactly! It’s clearly quite straightforward, cheaper, and doesn’t take any more time than eating meat. I’ll be there before long. Just got a lot of crazy life things to deal with at the moment, like a lot of people.
I’m at the stage of buying vegetarian meals when I remember to do so and it doesn’t take any more bother, which is about half the time. Once my life gets a bit more stable, I’ll go vegetarian, then ease on into vegan.
I have a vegan brother who is the best cook I know. He’s why I know how good vegan food is, and how I realised that not eating meat is not gonna mean eating boring stuff. It just takes changing the habits, then you’re set.
Another thing I know from my brother: everyone needs to know about nutritional yeast, whether they are vegetarian or not. Goddamn that stuff is tasty. 😄
that’s cool mate, and yea nooch is king (hence my username 😎 )
For a while I really thought we had left the people like you on Reddit. But alas you have followed us over here like removedroaches to ensure we can’t just have a space to exist unmolested by chuds who think they are entitled to have everyone listen to their unsolicited opinions.
This is a public forum which is exactly where unsolicited opinions go. Maybe speak to the community about closing it to non vegans such as women’sstuff closes it’s forum to non women. That this forum shows up on browse everything is hardly outsiders fault for encountering the content, and if the content isn’t locked down then it’s an open discussion.
But I’m not defending that asshole, just discussing how online life isnt always what we think it is. Doesn’t mean it can’t be, just might take some specific steps and ask some awkward questions.
I’m not a vegan or even vegetarian, doesn’t make sense to me, but if I’m not expecting to have someone who is take the time and effort to teach me, the best way to learn on my own is simply be witness to what is discussed so value the content even while not aligning with it.
Then again i consider myself open minded and have always valued education
The only reason Im here is because i browse by everything and posts in this comm pop up frequently. Same as womenstuff so I get exposed to these posts without making any effort at all to encounter them as non vegetarian.
I don’t vote on the vast majority of posts I encounter. I don’t care for the voting system but I’ll use it if a post strikes me as bad content for Lemmy in general.
I don’t care what comm I’m in. Rarely check. I’ll engage with content if I have something to say, usually pass without comment. As most people do.
I don’t understand why restricted comms even show up for the whole Lemmy to see if they aren’t welcome to have all of lemmys eyeballs on them.
People who post content in niche places that are actively hostile to the vast majority of a larger community are naturally going to get massacred in any popular vote. That’s just math. And it’s a problem because it’s content for the wrong audience and just causes friction.
As far as I know unlike a comm that restricts who is allowed to post, non vegans are welcome to be here even if they aren’t very much appreciated and many of the vegans would just prefer they avoided it entirely instead of messing with it. Look but don’t touch kind of thing that’s my approach, but I get it wrong or just have had days too like anyone else.
I don’t think blocking out things you don’t like, or make you a bit sqeemish about, is a good habit to form. It’s absolutely a valuable tool but it’s too easy to create echo chambers and I constantly see that lack of encountering things greater than your own opinion being bad for your health over the long run.
We need to challenge the things that make us uncomfortable to make any real change happen. I wish I had a better solution for the people who need tear down all the things they don’t personally feel comfortable with it that challenge them in someway.
Perhaps I’m naive, but I look at this place and others like it as people sharing their opinions not communities acting as a group. It’s convenient to have those communities because they are real things that exist, but the content is for everyone even when everyone shouldn’t be responding to it. I hope I explained that properly.
Food and the consumption of it is a human universality. We all have it in common so I think whether you are vegan, vegetarian, or neither, it will draw interest far outside those it is intended to because food is just relatable one way or another.
I think it’s very mature of the vegans communities I’ve encountered on here that they don’t segregate themselves. I think that’s the only way to stop hostilities between different worldviews and start helping each other be better.
Thanks for getting through my dumb thoughts. If you are ever in Quebec City, one of the best soups I’ve ever had was a Thai curry soup from Don Vegan the first vegan only restaurant in that historic city.
You’re cool, Jarix, and I appreciate your mindset. I agree that keeping an open mind is a good idea, though I’ve personally come to veganism on my own and don’t see any benefit from reading potential meat-based posts (unless it’s a recipe I can easily swap ingredients for.) I grew up in a meat-eating family and have probably heard every argument against it under the sun. So when people come trolling on here (as you’ve seen), it becomes an eye-rolling waste of time for all involved. I don’t think blocking pro-meat coms would be a sign of a closed mind, any more than blocking the coding coms (since I don’t code) or the German coms (since I don’t speak German) would be. It just wouldn’t apply to me, and that’s fine!
It would be lovely if more people had your mindset. I think people should question everything, taking the time to critically examine what they claim to believe and match their actions to it. At least, to the best of their ability.
Anyway, your “dumb thoughts” don’t seem dumb at all. I’m no authority in this com, but I’d welcome you back any day. :)
Best pad Thai I ever had was a vegetarian Pad Thai specially made by a Thai guy called Joe running a food caravan.
Hey, I lived in Québec city before as a vegan. There were at least two vegan restaurants before Don Vegan. But both were completely raw. I wasn’t interested in raw cuisine, so you can imagine how sad I was in Québec city in regards to restaurants. Especially as I knew how hugely different it was in Montréal.
I recently learned of Don Vegan when I was planning to maybe visit with my family. The plan didn’t materialize, but thanks for the recommendation. I’ll probably visit in the future.
Oh I went by their claim. They said first 100% Vegan restaurant, maybe there is a technical claim they are making? Raw like Paleo? Maybe that’s it. Sorry if I caught a lie. Gorgeous city, gorgeous region. Wish everyone here could just embrace the heritage(First Nations too!) and celebrate each other instead of all the hate.
I really hope you get to bring the family there and enjoy it!
It’s not that people think of it as “good”, they just don’t think about it at all. Most people don’t think about where their food really comes from, and where their demand for meat exists, capitalism maximizes profits.
Then there are other issues, like lack of empathy, or just not regarding animals as deserving of life. Some non-vegans may know the source of their food but they simply don’t care.
And then there’s always cognitive dissonance where they might care, but they shove that in the back of their mind and justify eating meat anyway.
All this makes it difficult for a one-size-fits-all approach to educating non-vegans in hope they’ll change their eating habits. It’s not a matter of truth or good, it’s a complex matter of knowing, having the capacity for empathy, recognizing animals as deserving of empathy, and then believing that this information is more important than their desire to eat meat.
It’s not that people think of it as “good”, they just don’t think about it at all.
They also get really mad when you make them think about it, because most people know it’s wrong.
Or, perhaps, just maybe, they don’t enjoy being vilified by people that claim moral high ground over a choice?
Most people will get mad at someone pointing out their immoral behavior. This is easier on the ego. It’s also childish and weak.
Giving money to factory farms by buying their products is not a choice like picking a flavour of ice cream though. It has victims that suffer immensely under the conditions.
If someone beat up their dog every day and someone criticized them for it, you probably wouldn’t say that they shouldn’t “vilify” the animal abuser and that any attempt to help the victim is just “claiming moral high ground over a choice”, I assume?
Like I get that the intention isn’t to be cruel when people buy meat, but it does involve very serious animal abuse. That sadly doesn’t go away just by looking the other way.
Remember, no one is born vegan.
My personal experience was, in fact, that I was mad at vegans for making me think about it. I find most people, when pressed, feel that hurting animals is wrong and sometimes will even admit it. That’s why so many of them are obsessed with the future being lab-grown meat, they’d rather be able to eat flesh without hurting anyone.
I bet that applies to you, too. If we could grow lab grown bacon, which tastes exactly the same as flesh from a pig, you’d choose it every time. I doubt you actually want to hurt pigs.
Man i hate it when animals get tortured for no reason.
Look at this guy vilifying me
If we didn’t eat cows there would probably not be many cows at all.
Look up what happened to sheep in America after people mostly stopped eating mutton.
Would you rather live to be exploited to death or not be born at all?
Sheep are not native to the Americas and are not extinct, far from it actually.
I’m already exploited until I die Just not for literal meat
Man you should be glad we torture you on a daily basis, otherwise you wouldn’t even exist.
People have a really odd look on farms. Unless farms are way different. Most cattle farms don’t torture their animals and they are free roaming. Now feed lots where they go to be killed are another matter but that is last stage not their whole life.
My guys the cows were bred by humans in the first place, farming is not a conservation charity. The only reason people value cows is for their bodies anyway.
The only reason people value cows is for their bodies anyway.
And dairy.
And aesthetics and spirit. (Joyous to spend time with ~ & think of hinduism’s take on cows too).
And fertiliser (& soil biome). (Yay, more plants growing better, without chemical fertiliser).
And more. (Not all of it pleasant ~ e.g. bull fighting and perversions).
Not just meat, leather & bone broth.
When I said their bodies I also meant for milk exploitation. While I agree that spending time with cows is cool, this is not the reason they’re bred. Farmers earn their living from selling and exploiting cow’s bodies, this is why they breed them, not because they’re nice to be around, not because they think it’s cool that cows exist, not for the cow’s benefit and best interest. This is not to say that farmers hate the animals they raise or that they are evil or intentionally want to cause them harm (I believe most of them don’t), but animal farming is never in the animal’s interest.
I still don’t think it’s a big deal, it’s not like the world population will go vegan overnight. To enjoy some time with cows I suggest people visit their local animal sanctuary to support the animals who were rescued from the industry and can be free.
Assuming this is even accurate… it’s bad because…?
If they’d go extinct then either let them or help them. How is forcefully breeding them just for torture and genocide better than them going extinct?
Torture most cows I see live a pretty good life. Roam around outside eat and are feed in the winter. Not all cows are killed at that age. And this is slightly wrong for cows usually butchered around 2. I mean at least be accurate.
Oh noes not the cows that won’t be alive to notice that they aren’t alive.
okay sheep are fucking idiots though. they can’t survive on their own. cows can.
Cows are pretty stupid and very inefficient animals. Never spent time on a farm?
they are not as stupid as sheep and i spent a month bucking hay every summer until i was 12 and the famiily sold the dairy, why?
So honest question about veganism here, since it relates to animal suffering - are vegans limited to what medicine they can use, since nearly all of it required animal testing? Especially since usually these animals suffered WAY more than livestock does, due to how medicine is tested.
If yes, and the philosophy does allow medicine, then does that mean raising your own chickens in ideal conditions and only eating them at an old age / near death is fine in that case, for example?
Veganism is not about animal suffering, but needless animal exploitation.
Is the medicine needed for you? Then it isn’t needless animal exploitation.
Do you have other options besides exploiting animals to death for food? Then it is needless animal exploitation.
Especially since usually these animals suffered WAY more than livestock does, due to how medicine is tested.
You already got some good answers for the rest, but this part is also questionable. Lab animals tend to be kept in better conditions than most farmed animals. And while toxicity tests are terrible (esp the ones for cosmetics) they don’t tend to last as long as intensive farming. Chickens in factory farms can barely move, some collapse under the weight of their own muscles, 70 to 80% of them have broken bones. It is trully hell and that’s just one example.
Also when you look at the numbers, proportionally eating animals is a way bigger issue. Most meat eaters would be “responsible” for the killing of around ~100 animals a year just for food. For medicine, proportionally it would be way, way less, since the test happened only once.
To be honest for me veganism is not a set of rules, it’s a way of looking at things. Taking into consideration that animals are sentient beings and being honest to myself about the implications. Also on how my actions impact the world. I can’t justify not taking most medicines if I need them. However I also can’t justify not making the effort to look for cruelty-free cosmetics.
EDIT: I should clarify that there’s not one vegan philosophy. There’s many different philosophies that could lead to veganism. Animal personhood being the most extreme end of it, but vegans also include people who believe in harm minimization, people who just hate factory farms and live in cities, Buddhists, radical interpretations of halal, and more. I answered these questions from a harm minimization perspective.
General principle is minimization of harm. The classic example is “You’re on an island alone, slowly starving to death. There’s a pig. Would you kill and eat the pig?”
For quite a few vegans, the answer is yes. Luckily, that’s not the situation we find ourselves in, we can live healthy and happy lives without harming many animals in the vast majority of situations.
To directly answer the question: it depends. Is there an alternative that hasn’t been tested on animals? Is this medicine life-saving, or just very slight quality of life bump, like getting over a hangover slightly faster? Those questions would guide you to an answer.
To answer your chicken question, I don’t think there’s any moral issue with eating the body of a being that’s died of old age. I don’t think many vegans would do that anyway though, because after a long time without meat, it tastes “wrong” to eat meat (not sure exactly how to describe it). Same reason not many long-term vegans are that interested in lab-grown meat.
Kinda how it wouldn’t be immoral to eat your dog who died of old age, though it would be weird and icky
That sounds clean, but it assumes that animals and humans sit in the same moral category. A lot of people simply don’t grant that equivalence. They can fully imagine the suffering and still judge it differently because they see humans as having a higher moral status.
There’s also a leap from empathy to obligation(or similar is to ought). Humans routinely recognize suffering and still accept it under various tradeoffs. Medicine, construction, law enforcement, even wildlife management all involve harm that people wouldn’t personally want inflicted on themselves. The fact that someone can imagine pain doesn’t mean they conclude “this must never happen.” It means they decide whether that harm is justified within their own moral framework. In the case of livestock, many decide that food, culture, convenience, or nutrition justify it. It catered to their hollow.
Just look at guns, drugs and cars… And all the dead children. I digress.
Not all land can grow crops. A large share of grazing land is only usable through animals. Most livestock systems convert otherwise inedible biomass into food. On the other hand, industrial animal agriculture clearly has major negative and positive impacts. The reality isn’t a clean moral on-off-switch. It’s a messy optimization problem with mutual tradeoffs, and people naturally disagree on where the balance ought land, and naturally for whom the bill tolls.
Animals avoid suffering, but many also inflict it without moral hesitation(fight vs flight). Humans are perhaps the only ones trying to build any ethical systems at all, so disagreement is predictable. The presence of empathy doesn’t produce one universal conclusion, nor should it ever when considering the endless facets of those perceiving whatever this is.
Cheers.
The argument has always been precisely to re-examine what we believe is morally justifiable. It’s no surprise that someone who supports animal agriculture finds it morally plausible - it would be stranger if they didn’t find it morally plausible while continuing to support it. People make loads of arguments in favor for continuing to consume animal products, but the most revealing question is - what if all animal products tasted like sand? Does any of the claimed nutritional value arguments or tradition or w/e really feel well argued if you are defending something that both tastes incredibly bad, and is as harmful as animal agriculture is?
Not all land can indeed grow crops, but hysterically much more fertile land is wasted on animal agriculture. Pointing out marginal factors like they paint the whole picture is misleading.
Your thought experiment quietly assumes that if a motivation includes pleasure, it becomes morally suspect. Odd. That’s not how we treat most other domains. People accept environmental damage for travel, resource use for comfort, even risk to others in things like driving or gun ownership or cohabitation. It’s typically because those activities provide value beyond bare survival.
Again, you can argue animal agriculture crosses a line, but then you need to explain why this tradeoff is categorically different, not just say “what if it tasted bad.”
Because replacing animal products with plant products is so very easy. 🙂 I think of it as minimal effort for maximum difference. Concerning other domains where we also choose pleasure over consideration, I would argue the “other options” are not so readily available.
Your personal experience doesn’t generalize cleanly. Cost, access, cultural norms, cooking knowledge, food allergies, digestive tolerance, and even just time and mental bandwidth all matter. What feels like a small adjustment to one person can feel like a constant friction to someone else. And when something becomes daily friction, it stops being “minimal,” even if it looks trivial from the outside.
Other options are abundant. Now I’m just starting to think you’re full of … Something.
For most people diet is a very small part of their “footprint.” And I’d argue other domains have more alternatives and are more viable and would make a greater difference than diet accounts for in its entirely.
Again, none of the cost, access, cultural norms, digestive tolerances etc. would matter to people if animal products tasted like shit. People would not be making an argument “i eat this horrible product three times a day because it’s my culture”. They eat it because they like the taste. This conversation could be over and done with much faster if people admitted this. And what other options are we talking about? Also, for most people diet is a big part of their carbon footprint, health issues, not to mention the suffering of the animals. This is not deniable science, and if you disagree with this, then I’m sure no argument in the world could ever reach you.
No one is arguing meat doesn’t taste good. Are you okay? Vegan-brained?
“Undeniable science” + “no argument could reach you” isn’t a strong case… it’s a conversation ender. The cries of a closed mind before it retreats in defeat.
it assumes that animals and humans sit in the same moral category
No, just that animals deserve some moral consideration.
In the case of livestock, many decide that food, culture, convenience, or nutrition justify it.
Some decide that kicking dogs is a good way to exercise, doesn’t mean it’s a good justification. Especially when there are other options. Same with animal products, there are other options.
Sure but I prefer animals. Most of the meat is from hunting or butchering animals myself.
Sure, someone’s preference to exercise could be kicking animals. That doesn’t mean it’s a good justification to do so.
Honestly, eating vegan, or even vegetarian, is too much of a hassle for most people most of the time, and that’s by design. So is eating anything that isn’t 80% corn syrup and processed sugar. Our society prioritizes cheap and/or artificial over everything else. Until that changes at a systemic level people aren’t going to change their eating habits.
This is true for much more than just food as well. Most won’t stop using plastic until the alternatives are cheaper and more accessible. Same with renewable energy, public transportation, pesticides, polyester clothing, etc. Most people are fundamentally lazy and will not go out of their way to do something beneficial for others unless they have a financial incentive to do so. Awareness of a problem only elicits a response in a small minority of the population.
You underestimate how much people can think and act for themselves.
Awareness of a problem only elicits a response in a small minority of the population.
And according to the 3.5% rule, that’s how much change we need in people.
A grassroots movement that defends animals needs more positive people, not negative ideas.
I’m pretty sure the word you are looking for is capitalism. And it’s not the only way people can live.
Sure, but saying that doesn’t change the fact that almost everyone in the industrialized world does live that way
I’m pretty sure that naming the thing that needs changing is a step along the way to making that change. No it doesn’t change the fact. And knowing what the problem is, naming it correctly can be helpful for some, tho’ perhaps not for you specifically.
Efficient systems that work fine are always dismantled & pushed into something where more complicated & more expensive industries are involved.
It’s why we don’t have more railroad infrastructure (trains, trams, tracks, connections, good ux, etc).
Pushing a product like meats just makes more profit margin, more wealth transfer, political power, etc.
Financial sense and economical sense differ a lot.
This is true but I’m genuinely not sure if it’s worse that they are babies or of it would be worse if they were matured to say 60 or 80 percent lifespan in the same conditions before visiting the slaughter house…
Commercial breeds of poultry are bred to be quick growing genetic freaks. If they live much longer they suffer under their own weight. I’ve seen first hand what happens when you let a Cornish cross live past its market desired weight. Not pretty.
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I will bite, my take is that responsibility, accountability and empathy are all things lacking in society that encourages and rewards selfishness and betterment of self above all else. It really is a shock when you mention these things to people that then associate what you are saying with “their” food. You are attacking the very sense of self, ego and identity which leads to defensive reactions that are not based on logic let alone empathy. The only way to change this is to address the systemic reliance on self promotion and preservation, but this means equality and communities at all levels to not discriminate amongst people within them and support them with basic needs, including quality education that supports critical thinking and comprehension. With this, people will be more receptive and it will be less about advocating on behalf of those species that can’t or fighting against long held traditions and more that they will find this to be a reasonable thing that they conclude themselves because they no longer have to fight for their place or status in society.
We don’t need that much education to understand the argument, it’s quite simple actually:
You and animals both feel and want to live.
You don’t want others to harm your feelings or end your life.
If everyone respected eachothers feelings and desire to live, people wouldn’t harm you.
Therefore, we shouldn’t mess with the feelings and desire to live of beings that can feel and want to live.
And if nobody harmed each other or animals, there’d be no vegans.
Now, where to from here? Tell people you have an answer to a problem they don’t have, or to solve their problems so they understand yours?
Most of the people I outreach when doing activism are actually against exploiting animals when there is no need. It just follows that if you believe that and don’t want to be a hypocrite, you have to be vegan. Non-blacks that supported the civil rights movements didn’t do so because someone ‘tell them an answer for a problem they didn’t have’, they did so because they thought it was the right thing to do. It’s the same with veganism, people against needless animal exploitation will go vegan, they just need to be educated on what they are supporting. Most people I talk to have no idea how animals are exploited.
I’m not sure what you’re proposing, I’d love to listen to some actionable ideas that would help abolish or minimize animal exploitation though.
