i DO think it is fair to lament that the state of the world has anyone in a place where they must strategically vote for a fucking banker to protect you from something worse
I’m not sure I’m following but I want to, Carney was a banker which is bad but he is considered a necessary evil against Trump? I would totally understand that, as Canada might be really fucked without a good leader right now. I suppose this banker will need to prove himself, but if you an actor has been able to protect Ukraine (most of it) against Russia a banker doesn’t sound like a bad choice.
That aside, do people here think Carney is equally left/right as Trudeau was or do you think the liberals will have very different direction under his leadership?
you absolutely want the masked evil. it’s survivable. the mask of evil is putin, trump, and poliviere. it’s hitler, stalin, and mussolini. the result of giving the mask off evil power has always resulted in deaths in the millions. the problem with banality of evil types is less that they are evil and more that they are the “good men” who do nothing, allowing evil to succeed. the point of leftist thought is to cordon mark off evil away from power. you will encounter “leftists” who advocate for the mask off evil types in hopes that this will galvanize the populace into fighting back against dictators, but history doesn’t bear out that that’s what happens. mask off evil types are extremely good at dividing the lower classes and thinning them one group at a time via genocide.
and if you pay attention to accelerationists, no amount of terrible is ever enough to galvanize the people. the point of something is what it does, and accerationists are always in lock step with the right wingers they claim to resist
I think I’ve heard to many people say “well at least he’s honest about it” and got confused. Restrained evil is definitely more preferable than evil on the loose.
Carney is the Liberal Party, a centrist party, leader and therefor PM. Polliviere is the Conservative party leader and they have less seats so they don’t get to pick PM. If Polly got in, which is to say if his party had more seats than any other individual party, he would be Pro-Trump and his party in general is very Pro-Trump.
Most people agree that Trudeau was slightly more left than Carney, but many are upset that the New Democratic Party, the left and social democrat party of Canada, lost seats and have never held a PM position but honestly they would be crazy to expect anything else.
The identity crisis many leftist canadians were facing is whether they give up on NDP and vote Liberal or whether they allow a conservative PM. I’m sure they want empathy more than answers, right now.
Well it looks like they’ll need the NDP to form their minority government. The NDP should give their support contingent on changing the voting system to something better than first past the post.
They won’t have this much bargaining power ever again.
They had this much bargaining power with the previous government (also a liberal minority supported by NDP) and they weren’t able to use it to push electoral reform
I mean the guy is a straight laced professor of economics who wrote his thesis on the advantage of competition. He’s not exactly a working class hero. However, it could have been way worse and anyone who can’t see that just needs to look at the US to find out what happens when you don’t vote for the lesser of two evils.
Nothing is pure and virtue doesn’t matter. And even if virtue did matter, when you decide not to choose you are just as culpable with the result when it is the worse evil.
You can’t wash your hands if you had the power to act.
Where did I say that you shouldn’t vote? Of course you should vote. That’s a civic responsibility. I’m just rejecting the “lesser evil” argument. It’s used to support and justify bad candidates, and it helps to move the Overton Window in a more evil direction. All of those “lesser evil” candidates helped pave the way for Trump.
The implication that I believe you are missing is that all humans are to some degree evil, and that goes doubly so for the type of human that finds themselves working in the world of politics.
It’s tongue-in-cheek, and that was very well known when the phrase originally came out.
Lesser of two evils, lesser of two intellects, lesser of two personalities, lesser of two qualifications, lesser of two accomplishments, we did all of that and then some. I’m happy for you all. I just wish we could have also rejected fascism.
you don’t have to be an authcom to see that carney is to the right of trudeau; he canceled the carbon tax, the capital gains tax hike, and is in favor of building more oil pipelines
no matter who won, canada would shift to the right. all we could do is decide by how much.
(and either way, all 3 of them - trudeau, carney and poilievre - are neolibs who support the genocide in palestine)
He cancelled the carbon tax because the name had been beaten up by the Conservatives. He promised to replace it with something similar but more palatable to the general public. I loved the carbon tax but agree that half the population was against it because pretty much they hated the name.
He explained in depth his reasoning for both of those decisions and if you listen to him its because the carbon tax failed to accomplish its goal and he is going to tackle the problem another way.He still supports the issue he is just trying a different solution.
For the cgt its because Canada has entered a trade war with its closest trading partner and he is planning to do massive investment in Canada and doesnt want a cgt hike disincentivizing investment.
He didnt lower taxes on capital gains though. He chose not to raise the tax on capital gains. A Right wing stance would be to lower or remove.
He did say he wikl lower two taxes. He said he would lower the income tax rate for the bottom tax bracket by 1% and remove the carbon tax and replaced it with a carbon rebate programming for Canadians. He also said he would work with a bunch of other countries to tarrifs goods that were not up to carbon emission standards. So that together is a much stronger climate change impact than the carbon tax.
Yes, he’s a centrist and he’s to the right of Trudeau. These are fiscally conservative centrist policies. He’s at the right wing of the Liberal party. He’s not Trump, he’s not a Conservative, nobody says he is.
But for the love of Tommy Douglas’ ghost, don’t try to sell me any of this as …left wing. Carney is no social-democrat or democratic socialist.
If you think that pointing that out is somehow deriding Carney, that’s a “you” problem. There is nothing wrong with being a centrist, I don’t understand why you need to convince that the man is something he just isn’t.
People to the left of Liberals aren’t Tankies, but Tankies whinge that the winner is not left of Liberal. They would probably also whinge about an NDP PM. The only outcome I can see them celebrating is conservative victory. Tankies are scum of the earth.
The discourse on Lemmy however is a tendency to use “tankie” as some kind of othering identity marker. If I, an NDP and QS supporter, raise my hand and say “excuse me but Carney is a right wing Liberal, and I’m not comfortable with how the Overton Window has shifted to the right in Canada”, there is a clear narrative that will lump me in with the Others, right? Who by virtue of being tankies are therefore traitorous to Canada and therefore, hello, here’s the old red scare trope of “fellow travellers”, “pinkos” and “useful idiots”. Let’s not pretend that’s not the case.
You’re right, demanding we expand NDP while throwing the election to conservatives does make you a traitor accomplice. And regardless of figure of speech, there is no virtue among tankies. If you want to move the overton window left then remove as many conservatives from office as possible, that is the only path forward.
Consequences matter. Maybe you are full of leftwing virtue but no one sane or intelligent cares.
Valuing your virtue over consequences makes you a threat to everyone, including yourself. You’ll sink the ship for your principles and drag everyone down with you. So yes, if it minimizes you or your group’s political influence it makes sense to call you a traitor.
Its what got my country Trump. I now feel a visceral internal rage when anyone tells me “Democrats and Republicans are the same.” Regardless of what their actual politics are. Because I know they did not vote, they let this shit happen so they wouldn’t “dirty their hands”. I hate them. I despise them.
Buddy, your political system is nothing like ours. We don’t have one all-or-nothing election. We have a Westminster system, we have a multiparty democracy, we have minority governments and the capacity for coalitions. Our supreme Court justices retire, our federalism is not broken like yours and we don’t have founding daddy issues that cripple us to blindly worshipping some 200 year old piece of paper.
Keep your rage your side of the border, your frame of reference does not translate to our system. Pipe down.
Buddy, your political system is nothing like ours. We don’t have one all-or-nothing election. We have a Westminster system, we have a multiparty democracy, we have minority governments and the capacity for coalitions. Our supreme Court justices retire, our federalism is not broken like yours and we don’t have founding daddy issues that cripple us to blindly worshipping some 200 year old piece of paper.
You still have a first past the post. My rage applies to people who ignore tactical voting in order to maintain their sense of virtue.
Besides, based on what you’ve said for all I know if you were eligible to vote in the US, you’d abstain from voting or advocate that both parties were bad and complain about lesser evilism here.
Keep your rage your side of the border, your frame of reference does not translate to our system. Pipe down.
What happened to “You Americans act like you are the world, maybe pay attention to the rest of us.”? If I’m to invest time in world events, I obviously am going to make some level of commentary.
That your country elected a government hostile to the Trump admin is very much my business. I am incredibly happy that your voting population has done so. I hope Carney embarrasses Trump. I hope he makes my fellow dipshit Americans who voted for Trump or failed to vote against him feels every ounce of bad decision making and evil and SUFFERS.
I’ve said it before, but if somehow in the future there was some military conflict between our countries, I would end up siding with your government in a heart beat and maybe even attempt to join your military… I would do things to MAGA homes that would have international watch dogs vomit at the sight of, my antipathy for MAGA is that intense.
And if the conservative had won they all would have suddenly become optimists “the bright side is that this will weaken the western empire and accelerated the revolution of the working class!”
Fuck tankies too. Many Canadians are understandably concerned that a guy slightly to the right of the status quo which gave rise to Poilievre is not going to make anything better for us.
I already see Canadian tankies complaining about how right-wing Carney is.
The Canadian Overton Window shifts to the right, regardless.
And how would the window have shifted if little pp had won?
It shifts left when they realize they have no choice but to stop moving right.
To paraphrase Jim Carrey, they’ll keep moving right as long as ‘So you’re saying there’s a chance!?!?’
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and you think i support liberalism because…?
I’m not sure I’m following but I want to, Carney was a banker which is bad but he is considered a necessary evil against Trump? I would totally understand that, as Canada might be really fucked without a good leader right now. I suppose this banker will need to prove himself, but if you an actor has been able to protect Ukraine (most of it) against Russia a banker doesn’t sound like a bad choice.
That aside, do people here think Carney is equally left/right as Trudeau was or do you think the liberals will have very different direction under his leadership?
my point was more that bankers are the embodiment of the banality of evil and pp is the embodiment of true mask off evil
Hmm in that case I wouldn’t know I’d prefer the masked or the unmasked evil, hard to say. Good points can be made for both I guess.
you absolutely want the masked evil. it’s survivable. the mask of evil is putin, trump, and poliviere. it’s hitler, stalin, and mussolini. the result of giving the mask off evil power has always resulted in deaths in the millions. the problem with banality of evil types is less that they are evil and more that they are the “good men” who do nothing, allowing evil to succeed. the point of leftist thought is to cordon mark off evil away from power. you will encounter “leftists” who advocate for the mask off evil types in hopes that this will galvanize the populace into fighting back against dictators, but history doesn’t bear out that that’s what happens. mask off evil types are extremely good at dividing the lower classes and thinning them one group at a time via genocide.
and if you pay attention to accelerationists, no amount of terrible is ever enough to galvanize the people. the point of something is what it does, and accerationists are always in lock step with the right wingers they claim to resist
I think I’ve heard to many people say “well at least he’s honest about it” and got confused. Restrained evil is definitely more preferable than evil on the loose.
You need evil with shame.
Shameless evil is absolutely unstoppable.
So yes but actually no.
Carney is the Liberal Party, a centrist party, leader and therefor PM. Polliviere is the Conservative party leader and they have less seats so they don’t get to pick PM. If Polly got in, which is to say if his party had more seats than any other individual party, he would be Pro-Trump and his party in general is very Pro-Trump.
Most people agree that Trudeau was slightly more left than Carney, but many are upset that the New Democratic Party, the left and social democrat party of Canada, lost seats and have never held a PM position but honestly they would be crazy to expect anything else.
The identity crisis many leftist canadians were facing is whether they give up on NDP and vote Liberal or whether they allow a conservative PM. I’m sure they want empathy more than answers, right now.
Well it looks like they’ll need the NDP to form their minority government. The NDP should give their support contingent on changing the voting system to something better than first past the post.
They won’t have this much bargaining power ever again.
They had this much bargaining power with the previous government (also a liberal minority supported by NDP) and they weren’t able to use it to push electoral reform
I mean the guy is a straight laced professor of economics who wrote his thesis on the advantage of competition. He’s not exactly a working class hero. However, it could have been way worse and anyone who can’t see that just needs to look at the US to find out what happens when you don’t vote for the lesser of two evils.
IMO anybody who promotes competition and antimonopoly is a working class hero.
“Competition” is not a working class interest. Solidarity is.
Yeah well Monopoly isn’t solidarity, it’s oppression, so fighting that is good in my book.
A liberal fights a monopoly by competition, so that no single capitalist gains more profits over the other capitalists.
A socialist fights a monopoly by socializing it and making it a utility that works to meet the needs of the population, eliminating the profit motive.
Lack of alternatives is always bad, the needs of the population are rarely homogeneous.
And the true enemy endorses monopoly, so I’m happy to call liberals my friends.
Sure, no problem with that, but they’re not “working class heroes”, which is what I reacted to in the first place.
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Supporting lesser of two evils just gets you more and more evil, and eventually you get to Trump.
That phrase is aggressively fucking stupid.
Nothing is pure and virtue doesn’t matter. And even if virtue did matter, when you decide not to choose you are just as culpable with the result when it is the worse evil.
You can’t wash your hands if you had the power to act.
Where did I say that you shouldn’t vote? Of course you should vote. That’s a civic responsibility. I’m just rejecting the “lesser evil” argument. It’s used to support and justify bad candidates, and it helps to move the Overton Window in a more evil direction. All of those “lesser evil” candidates helped pave the way for Trump.
People not voting to prevent him from winning got us Trump.
The implication that I believe you are missing is that all humans are to some degree evil, and that goes doubly so for the type of human that finds themselves working in the world of politics.
It’s tongue-in-cheek, and that was very well known when the phrase originally came out.
The subtlety seems to have been lost over time.
Someone read that quote from The Witcher, not recognizing it was planted right at the beginning of a character arc of growth.
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I think this is more like multiple paths that are all in the same narrow valley, if pollievre had won that would have led to a different path for sure
Lesser of two evils, lesser of two intellects, lesser of two personalities, lesser of two qualifications, lesser of two accomplishments, we did all of that and then some. I’m happy for you all. I just wish we could have also rejected fascism.
you don’t have to be an authcom to see that carney is to the right of trudeau; he canceled the carbon tax, the capital gains tax hike, and is in favor of building more oil pipelines
no matter who won, canada would shift to the right. all we could do is decide by how much.
(and either way, all 3 of them - trudeau, carney and poilievre - are neolibs who support the genocide in palestine)
He cancelled the carbon tax because the name had been beaten up by the Conservatives. He promised to replace it with something similar but more palatable to the general public. I loved the carbon tax but agree that half the population was against it because pretty much they hated the name.
Just for clarification, he cancelled the consumer carbon tax. It was pretty much just a move to screw over PP (and I’m all for that honestly)
He explained in depth his reasoning for both of those decisions and if you listen to him its because the carbon tax failed to accomplish its goal and he is going to tackle the problem another way.He still supports the issue he is just trying a different solution.
For the cgt its because Canada has entered a trade war with its closest trading partner and he is planning to do massive investment in Canada and doesnt want a cgt hike disincentivizing investment.
Do you disagree with this reasoning?
Right wing does not mean unreasonable. It means right wing.
But he still has a left wing stance on those issues.
Lowering taxes on capital is not a left wing stance. It just isn’t.
He didnt lower taxes on capital gains though. He chose not to raise the tax on capital gains. A Right wing stance would be to lower or remove.
He did say he wikl lower two taxes. He said he would lower the income tax rate for the bottom tax bracket by 1% and remove the carbon tax and replaced it with a carbon rebate programming for Canadians. He also said he would work with a bunch of other countries to tarrifs goods that were not up to carbon emission standards. So that together is a much stronger climate change impact than the carbon tax.
Yes, he’s a centrist and he’s to the right of Trudeau. These are fiscally conservative centrist policies. He’s at the right wing of the Liberal party. He’s not Trump, he’s not a Conservative, nobody says he is.
But for the love of Tommy Douglas’ ghost, don’t try to sell me any of this as …left wing. Carney is no social-democrat or democratic socialist.
If you think that pointing that out is somehow deriding Carney, that’s a “you” problem. There is nothing wrong with being a centrist, I don’t understand why you need to convince that the man is something he just isn’t.
You don’t have to be a tankie to see that Carney is a red tory.
Stephen Harper when he was leader of the Conservative Party offered Mark Carney a position as Finance Minister.
So Conservatives sure thought he was far enough to the right to be a Conservative.
Anything to the left of the Liberals is “tankies” now?
People to the left of Liberals aren’t Tankies, but Tankies whinge that the winner is not left of Liberal. They would probably also whinge about an NDP PM. The only outcome I can see them celebrating is conservative victory. Tankies are scum of the earth.
The discourse on Lemmy however is a tendency to use “tankie” as some kind of othering identity marker. If I, an NDP and QS supporter, raise my hand and say “excuse me but Carney is a right wing Liberal, and I’m not comfortable with how the Overton Window has shifted to the right in Canada”, there is a clear narrative that will lump me in with the Others, right? Who by virtue of being tankies are therefore traitorous to Canada and therefore, hello, here’s the old red scare trope of “fellow travellers”, “pinkos” and “useful idiots”. Let’s not pretend that’s not the case.
You’re right, demanding we expand NDP while throwing the election to conservatives does make you a traitor accomplice. And regardless of figure of speech, there is no virtue among tankies. If you want to move the overton window left then remove as many conservatives from office as possible, that is the only path forward.
Nice imagination you got there. Do you have more things to imagine about what my political positions are, while calling me a fucking traitor?
Some people man.
Consequences matter. Maybe you are full of leftwing virtue but no one sane or intelligent cares.
Valuing your virtue over consequences makes you a threat to everyone, including yourself. You’ll sink the ship for your principles and drag everyone down with you. So yes, if it minimizes you or your group’s political influence it makes sense to call you a traitor.
Its what got my country Trump. I now feel a visceral internal rage when anyone tells me “Democrats and Republicans are the same.” Regardless of what their actual politics are. Because I know they did not vote, they let this shit happen so they wouldn’t “dirty their hands”. I hate them. I despise them.
Buddy, your political system is nothing like ours. We don’t have one all-or-nothing election. We have a Westminster system, we have a multiparty democracy, we have minority governments and the capacity for coalitions. Our supreme Court justices retire, our federalism is not broken like yours and we don’t have founding daddy issues that cripple us to blindly worshipping some 200 year old piece of paper.
Keep your rage your side of the border, your frame of reference does not translate to our system. Pipe down.
You still have a first past the post. My rage applies to people who ignore tactical voting in order to maintain their sense of virtue.
Besides, based on what you’ve said for all I know if you were eligible to vote in the US, you’d abstain from voting or advocate that both parties were bad and complain about lesser evilism here.
What happened to “You Americans act like you are the world, maybe pay attention to the rest of us.”? If I’m to invest time in world events, I obviously am going to make some level of commentary.
That your country elected a government hostile to the Trump admin is very much my business. I am incredibly happy that your voting population has done so. I hope Carney embarrasses Trump. I hope he makes my fellow dipshit Americans who voted for Trump or failed to vote against him feels every ounce of bad decision making and evil and SUFFERS.
I’ve said it before, but if somehow in the future there was some military conflict between our countries, I would end up siding with your government in a heart beat and maybe even attempt to join your military… I would do things to MAGA homes that would have international watch dogs vomit at the sight of, my antipathy for MAGA is that intense.
And if the conservative had won they all would have suddenly become optimists “the bright side is that this will weaken the western empire and accelerated the revolution of the working class!”
Ah, the enlightened centrist has bestowed the ultimate and correct opinion.
Fuck tankies too. Many Canadians are understandably concerned that a guy slightly to the right of the status quo which gave rise to Poilievre is not going to make anything better for us.