Not voting is a sure fire way to have your voice ignored.
“You want change but you’re not going to vote towards making it happen because it doesn’t happen already? Why the fuck do you think things aren’t changing for the better‽”
Voting is so fuckin important, especially in local elections. Local politics bleeds into county politics, which bleeds into state politics which bleeds into country politics.
It all starts locally.
You want bike lanes in your city? Vote.
You want better funding in your schools? Vote.
You want more affordable housing in your area? Vote.
Vote in every election. No exceptions.
Hi there, as a Seattle local I have a legitimate question for you. The local democrats I voted for turned around and gerrymandered the socialist 3 term serving city council member out of office. The only member that was actually pushing for the working class politics I wanted from my district representative. What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
Edit: laughing at these down votes, yall are deeply unseriouse people.
FYI I downvoted you because you whined about your downvotes. Just thought you should know.
Next time vote for someone else. Local races are where “vote blue, no matter who” means the least. They’re the most likely place to see progressive change. If you saw unfortunate result because you put a check mark next to a D and expected something miraculous to happen, maybe you should start looking into the candidates instead of their party more often.
But, most of all. Don’t expect everyone to think the same way you do. Often they will have different ideas of what progress is. Sometimes that means you’ll see a step to the center, even if it’s a step forward. Don’t be disheartened just because you didn’t get everything you wanted this time, and show up again. And again. And again. Because the only way progress will stall is if you stop showing up.
If you saw unfortunate result because you put a check mark next to a D and expected something miraculous to happen, maybe you should start looking into the candidates instead of their party more often.
WA state has top two elections so the majority of the time it’s vote big D or little d. We also have statewide vote by mail so every election, primaries included, you can site down and research candidates as you mark off the ballot sheet, it’s one of the few times I enjoy a glass of wine as I take my time with it as it takes up an entire evening.
Any other misconceptions I can clear up for you?
I don’t see progress happening through the ballot box, increasingly I see more and more conservative liberals winning elections. And the progressives I once had hope for when they were first elected become more and more compromised as they try to work within the democratic party.
FYI I downvoted you because you whined about your downvotes. Just thought you should know.
Just as funny, but more so because you read commentary as complaining.
What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
It’s literally not how the party at large operates. As you said, it was your local city council. Why do you think the entire party is like this?
And the answer is, vote them out. If it’s bad enough, impeach them. There’s no way in our current configuration of democracy to prevent candidates from turning around and going back on their promises other than refusing to vote for them ever again.
You already know the answer, and it’s not “throw your hands up and abandon the whole system of democracy”.
You’re not paying attention. This is a huge problem with liberal voters, they are highly engaged when opposition is in power, yet completely oblivious while “their party” is in charge. Or somehow worse, they will decry obvious issues as helping the opposition (as we see in this thread) so that the needle only ever shifts slightly to the right as the party appeals to “moderates”.
I’m paying plenty of attention. I know Republicans have been using gerrymandering to have an outsize impact for decades. I know Democrats recently decided to stoop to their level rather than continuously taking the high road and losing because of it. I know that no sane person would decide to stop supporting the Democrats because of this tactic.
I suspect you’re not being genuine here.
Gerrymandering has been apart of American politics since the country’s founding, before the concept was even given a name in 1812. When the parties weren’t polarized from 1964–1992 there wasn’t a need for drastic gerrymandering like we see currently, but it still happened from both parties to secure incumbent power. It’s why it was never legislated against, both parties prefer to keep it around as it is yet another method of keeping the broken two party system in place.
I’m being genuine, authentic, and fucking real with you. Both parties are shit and we deserve better. Democrats will never truly save you from the looming threat of Republicans because they are two sides to the same imperialist coin.
imperialist
There it is.
So you disagree that America is an imperialist power?
Nah it’s you. definitely polcom type 14.
type mostly pretends to understand politics but just say vague pleas to emotion or le-reddit-insults.
CNBC or whoever coos in these types ears about how much smarter and better they are for being Democrats and well, not fucking much else.
You’ll never admit that you only watch tv news sometimes after work while browsing your phone? No one would, on purpose. But sometimes they show it.
I see ya homie and i genuinely want you to shut the fuck up since by now you’ve probably figured out my my fucking trigger is arrogant, ignorant liitle shits.
Here, take a tissue
Are you suggesting it makes any sort of fucking sense whatsoever to help usher in a fascist dictatorship at the Federal level just because you’re unhappy with how the other party acted at your local city level?
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How is it a strawman when it’s literally an accurate description of the situation? You’re trying to defend helping Trump, a fascist wannabe-dictator, get back into power on the grounds that your local Seattle Democrats fucked over a progressive.
Here’s a reminder of what you wrote (in case you try to edit it to save face):
Hi there, as a Seattle local I have a legitimate question for you. The local democrats I voted for turned around and gerrymandered the socialist 3 term serving city council member out of office. The only member that was actually pushing for the working class politics I wanted from my district representative. What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
Cite the part of either my comments that isn’t an accurate restatement of that. I dare you.
Unfortunately gerrymandering is a flaw in the democratic process. At least in the US, the Voting Rights Act makes it so political parties cannot redraw districts to decrease the political influence of racial or ethnic groups. It says nothing about other political parties, so whichever party is in power when voting lines need to be redrawn will inevitably try to redraw the lines in their favor. Until that sort of gerrymandering is outlawed, it will continue to happen. The party in power isn’t going to make it fair for their competition out of the kindness of their heart.
Right but none of what you said answers the question: What kind of incremental change can I expect to really see when that is how the party at large operates?
When true change is threatened it is dealt with in two ways, recuperation or rejection. Anything else is not change that threatens the systems of power and is allowed to be squabbled over.
Talk politics with people in your area, get to know people IRL, show up to city council things, do the leg work when you can. Again local elections happen locally with the people in your locality.
The incremental change that is had in this situation is not having the GQP win. Yeah the maps got redrawn in a way you don’t like this time but don’t stop fighting for what you see is right.
When you stop fighting the people you fight against will be able to steam roll through.
Well, looking beyond one local election might help. Sure, your district may not have gone the way you want, but another may have gone further.
If all you care about is what matters directly to you, then you’re in for a bad time.
Well, looking beyond one local election might help.
You don’t quite understand what I am referencing if you think when I talk of recuperation that I am just referencing one election. Black Lives Matter is the biggest lightning rod that was very obviously recuperated in order to diminish it’s radical politics, MLK was literally assassinated when his politics got too radical and threatening of the status quo and then his legacy was recuperated, even the New Deal was recuperation of the strongest labor movement because of it’s deep socialist roots.
These are long standing ongoing problems with our political system and those that maintain it’s power.
What you can do - vote in the primaries, participate and support the socialist you supported (or similar folks) in new elections, etc.
Local elections, imo, matter a lot. And gerrymandering is a huge problem, recently enshrined by the supreme court as being A-OK! So you could use as a constituent, but… I doubt it will get anywhere.
So the best option is the next election.
To a lot of progressives, Democrats are backsliding away from progressivism, not moving slowly towards it. If they need progressives to win, they sure arent acting like it.
Get involved in politics and participate like hell
Influence your local elections to the best of your abilities and encourage others to do the same
The more stuff that can be done by getting people to act in a progressive way the more they’ll be steered in that direction
And hell you could even try running in your local elections too, you’d be surprised how simple it can be in a lot of places
I’m seeing people in this very thread being hesitant to admit that Democrats should probably court progressives for a victory.
A lot of people, even here on Lemmy, which is supposed to be quite left leaning, would rather Trump win than throw progressives a bone.
Perhaps I’m just reading into this too much, but it seems like Democrats are being actively hostile against progressives right now. How are we supposed to change things if they are being outright hostile towards progressivism?
This is the uphill battle that Democrats are going to have to face. You can’t continuously alienate your voter base and then expect positive results. The base factually is already alienated. The question is, what will Democrats do to win them back? Is it too late? The clock is ticking And I don’t think the Democrats are learning the correct lesson.
Translation: “I’m holding the nation hostage but the democrats aren’t negotiating with me”
Let’s assume it is a hostage situation. It isn’t but let’s humor you.
Guess you think is worth not giving in, eh?
The election will pan out how it’ll pan out. I’m voting for Biden so I can give my friends the best chance we can get them.
I am not just voting, though, and you shouldn’t stop at voting either.
Start working towards unionizing your workplace if you can. Join the IWW for training and networking (literally any worker can join).
Join and support any kind of solidarity network in your town you can (tenant unions, volunteer security details, food distributors, etc.) Hell, start one with your friends if there isn’t one.
Participate in protests and public shows of solidarity. Don’t back down.
Help the homeless. They’ve completely lost their voices and are constantly under attack by NIMBYs and cops, and it’s likely that many people you know right now will be in their position in the future, especially if Trump’s Elected.
Right now, ‘the revolution’ would never come. US citizens are atomized and divided, by highways, suburban sprawl, parking lots, hostile architecture, and the constant crushing weight of capitalist responsibilities. We’ve got to rebuilt the networks of solidarity we had during the union wars. That’s the best way forward to a better US. Unionize, uplift your fellow workers, and keep pushing against the oppressors.
Start working towards unionizing your workplace if you can. Join the IWW for training and networking (literally any worker can join).
Join and support any kind of solidarity network in your town you can (tenant unions, volunteer security details, food distributors, etc.) Hell, start one with your friends if there isn’t one.
Participate in protests and public shows of solidarity. Don’t back down.
Based
I really shouldn’t even have to go over this- we LIVED it already.
No, that’s not true. In fact, that’s incredible, delusional cope. What we lived already was nothing compared to what a term-limited Trump with nothing to lose backed by a fully-formed Project 2025 administration would be like.
Fair, but to their point, we know how it’ll play out - the press will fall in line, the sycophants will queue up, everyone will pretend this is fine, and absolute chaos will be the order of the day. That we’ve already lived before.
I don’t give a shit about the press or the sycophants! The issue is what the fascists will actually do, not how they will be perceived. And what they’re going to do is shit like this (from another Lemmy post today – I didn’t even have to look far to find it):
We’re talking about purges, pogroms, gulags, maybe even mass-murder of leftists and minorities. That’s not an “everyone will pretend this is fine” issue; that’s an “everyone will be literally imprisoned or dead issue!”
Yes, and when that doesn’t happen, all the people who were expecting the apocalypse to happen (like they did with the last Trump presidency) will neglect to show up for the next election… again.
The fanatics and sycophants (like the one you literally posted) are a distraction from all the people actually making changes in background. The people appointing judges, the people capturing regulation for their own ends.
People talk about how we’ll all be lined up and shot if we lose the presidency to Trump… but that’s not how these people work. It has never been how these people work. 99% of what they do is pander to their base with wild claims of what they’re going to do to the “woke-crowd” and the “socialists”. Then when they get into office they block any kind of effective legislation and blame the left and the neo-liberals for standing in the way of “America”.
Fascism in this country won’t happen with a shotgun blast, it will happen with a shiv in the dark.
“when that doesn’t happen”
Like Roe v Wade getting reversed didn’t happen?
You should read some history books. It is happening EXACTLY like it happened in the past. Down to a T. Other fascist groups weren’t successful their first attempt at seizing power either. Other fascist groups didn’t go from 0 to gas chamber instantly.
The fact that they haven’t yet lined people up against the wall does not mean they won’t the second they feel they can get away with it.
The last time they tried to steal power was a practice run. One they’ve learned from. One that almost succeeded except for some key people who didn’t bend their knee. Having people like that around is a mistake they will not make again.
Sounds like dems should do more to get progressives, if the stakes are so high.
If the stakes are so high??
What is it with people who don’t live in the US constantly shitting in these threads.
Are the stakes high or not? Because Democrats are not acting like it enough to concede to progressives.
It is irresponsible to alienate progressives right now.
Which is it?
There’s not this giant silent majority of Leftist voters. Most voters, especially in swing states, are independents / undecideds. You guys are so insular you think that everyone is like you. Dems aren’t pandering to you because there’s not a lot of you and most of you are too fickle to vote anyway.
And half of you are fucking outside agitators for whom no concession would be enough because the entire point is bashing Biden.
The only problem is when you people, whether paid trolls or useful idiots, manage to start swaying the mass of politically uninformed citizens to do stupid things.
Trying to give you people what you want is a fool’s errand, because it’s never enough. You have never given Biden credit for anything he’s done. Nothing is ever a victory, because every victory is met with “that’s not good enough”. You’ll never see establishment Dems support you because you’ve shown you’ll never support establishment Dems. The alternative for establishment dems is to convince uninformed voters to ignore you.
So what you’re saying is no, Democrats don’t need progressives.
Is that what you’re saying? It’s funny how I posit effectively a yes or no question and nobody can give a yes or no answer. You’re the fourth person in this one comment chain who hasnt said whether Democrats need progressives to win or not to make concessions.
Yes… or No?
It’s funny how I posit effectively a yes or no question and nobody can give a yes or no answer.
Because you’re demanding a simple answer to a complex question. It’s not a “yes” or a “no”. It’s a “yes, but” or a “no, but” answer depending on how you look at it.
What is so complex about “Do democrats need progressives”?
Either they are an instrumental voting block that needs to be taken seriously, or they don’t matter (and therefore deserve no blame if Joe loses).
You want it both ways because you are not arguing in good faith.
It’s also irresponsible to think of it only as democrats and republicans. It’s also irresponsible to doompost and naysay any positive action because it’s not perfect. It’s also irresponsible to act as though you stand on a moral high ground when all you can do is turn up your nose and say “not good enough”.
That is not an answer. Do Democrats need progressives enough to concede on issues?
Yes or No? Thats the reality we face, like it or not.
Are you willing to let Trump win if the answer is no?
That’s the reality we face, like it or not.
So nobody will answer. Got it.
It sure seems like the non-progressives have taken their ball and went home. Some allies.
No one can read the future so who knows… maybe? Maybe not? Depends how many people go out to vote?
Enjoy your life under the boot if you take that gamble and it doesn’t go your way, and always remember your share of the blame whatever comes.
I agree. Its a risky game, and when dems are alienating their base, it becomes far riskier. Truly irresponsible behavior.
Rationale people:
If Biden compromised with progressives it would guarantee a victory over trump…
“Moderates”:
Fuck you fascist, you’re worse than trump!
Yet when Biden gives Republicans everything they want like with the border, suddenly it’s justified because some Republican voter somewhere has a 1% chance of voting D for the first time in their life.
Just weird how it works definitely
There is actually a border problem, and actual fixes for it are Congress’s job. They are the legislative branch. And Biden worked with them to come up with legislation to fix it, and they came up with bipartisan legislation that was basically a lock to pass, but then Trump suddenly told the Republicans to tank it in order to hurt Biden (I guess you missed that). So he is doing one of the few things that the executive branch can do to address the border without legislation, to do something to address the real problem. And lo and behold, the GOP plan of tanking it has worked: you think Biden is giving Republicans everything they want.
Just think what else you’re blaming Biden for or mischaracterizing out of ignorance.
That legislation was everything we criticized Trump’s immigration “policy” for. Don’t mention it like it was a big glorious feat of statesmanship only for it to shot down by republicans.
And, yes, Republicans saying no to the things they always wanted because papa said so and accidentally voting for the right thing is very funny.
Does anyone have any statistics on how many people are likely to vote for Joe because he keeps moving to the right? Like, how many people are ACTUALLY on the fence between Biden and Trump? Compare that to how many people won’t vote or will vote 3rd party BECAUSE Biden keeps moving right.
Seriously, if they’d just come out and say “look, we’ve run the numbers, moving right gets us 10mil center right votes while losing us 1mil progressive votes, but moving left would only get us 5mil progressive votes while losing us 4mil center right votes” I’d get it and support the math. Gotta do it in good faith though… Assume progressives are not supporting Genocide Joe unless he moves left, not that they can be bullied into changing their minds.
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This is a needlessly antagonistic reply. The dude you’re replying to in no way said they aren’t voting for Biden, they just said they’d appreciate seeing the data on why Biden isn’t doing more to court progressives.
I’m voting for Biden and I’d love the same? That doesn’t make me a shithead.
I appreciate you.
To be fair, Joe is 1000% safe in my state, so I’ll likely vote 3rd party, but if you’re in one of the states that actually matters then I fully support voting against Trump (for Biden). I’ll also vote Democrat pretty much all the way down the rest of the ballot, which I’d argue is even more important than voting for Joe.
Protest votes should only be cast in a primary. I live in California and it is obviously going for Biden but I will still bit for Biden as I do not want to assume anything for such an important election.
You can’t really vote for the Green party in a Democrat primary though. Just as an example.
I do agree the primaries are where these things are really decided and should be taken much more seriously. I’d argue that even more important than that are the elections for Party members. Turning the Party progressive would do more than turning the president progressive, and like 5 people vote in those elections… They are relatively easily winnable for progressives. But sadly most people don’t even know how Party politics work.
I’d also point out that it’s the Dems who are assuming progressives will vote for Biden instead of actually courting them. An awfully big assumption of them for such an important election wouldn’t you say? Don’t be so hard on yourself. If the Dems choose to go after the right instead of the left and it backfires… Again… That’s on them
Yeah but you didn’t have the common decency to throw a Genocide Joe in there or mention something about our colonialistic ways. Obviously you’re only here to discuss things with reason and allow for the proper give-and-take that requires. Which is outrageous, and I won’t stand for it.
(But srs the metrics involved are sort of impossible to get, particularly this late in the cycle, and there’s a bunch of deep-diving involved to understand how they play out.)
Oh, little buddy’s got big feelings today… It’s okay big guy, deep breaths
Is it really too much to ask for some evidence that going after the center right is a better move than going after the left? Seems like a no brainer to me… But then again, so do you
Ok, it might be possible to get you that data, I bet a lot of it is proprietary but I’m sure something is floating out there.
But before that, let’s take a pause.
You really think they haven’t done this? I mean what’s the alternative? The Dems pursue the center/right just for the lulz? The Illuminati is secretly controlling both parties? How insane is that?
Great, so the left wing isn’t that important for a Biden victory. If he loses it’s just on him then. This whole post is superfluous
Illuminati? No… Corporate donors? Yes… Insane to think they don’t
I think the Dems might be working off old numbers. I think there were far fewer progressives in the 90’s, and the party hasn’t caught up with the fact that the majority of the younger generations are far left of them now. Maybe not on social issues, I think the Dems have made a lot of progress there, but fiscally they’re still protecting the interests of the rich at the expense of everyone else.
If they’ve done the research, then let’s see it.
You think Democrats haven’t done any sort of polling for thirty years?
“keeps moving right”
Are you mixing things up? Israel support isn’t a right wing thing and the Democrats would lose a lot more pro Israel voters than pro Palestine voters because the alternative supports Israel as well.
Otherwise Biden is much more progressive than people thought he would be.
That seems to be the theory… Any sources for it though? Why are they allowed to be single issue voters, but not progressives? Why isn’t Joe out there saying stop the genocide or we’ll stop all support of Israel, and then sending in the meme team to harass the shit out of pro genocide centrists? Something like “it’s the most important election ever, how could you possibly be thinking of voting for Trump, don’t you know he LITERALLY supports Nazis? So you think Nazis don’t still hate Jews? Don’t you know that not voting or voting 3rd party is basically voting for Nazis??”
Seriously, what are the stats? I just don’t believe there are that many people who would be like “well I was going to vote for Joe, but then he came out as anti genocide, so I guess I’ll just hold my nose and vote for Trump… Sure he’s a Nazi supporter, but at least he’ll keep the genocide going”
You’ve got two pro-Israel parties, people who are pro-Palestine know things will be even worse with the Republicans in power, people who are pro-Israel know things will be the same or better (on that specific front) with Republicans in power. The far right you’re calling Nazis is on Israel’s side when it comes to fighting brown people.
This next national election is simple: do you want 4 more years of Trump or not?
No: Vote for Joe Biden.
Yes: Vote for Trump, vote third party, or abstain.
The republicans are a minority now and are trying everything to win the electoral college despite their minority status. They will LOVE you to not vote because of Biden’s stance on __________.
So make your choice.
So why won’t Biden move to the left again?
It’s like that’s never mentioned as an option these days, but isn’t it easier to convince one person to compromise than tens of millions of people?
Because he is right wing and the current system is working in his favor.
The worst thing that could happen to the democrats is a competent opponent. They need trump in order to win so post election you’re so burned up from worrying about hard fascism you become more docile towards the shit were left with.
This is, i believe, why some rich fuckers donate to both sides. They cant purchase a president but they can purchase a party nominee and by making one of two choices completely unacceptable we are forced to take the alternative.
He has moved to the left, just not enough to be called progressive.
He’s pandering to the center, yeah, but only looking at the regressive things he’s done over the past four years as though that’s all that matters is part of the reason they pander to the center instead of you.
He has moved to the left, just not enough to be called progressive.
He was pulled to the left in the 2020 primary by Bernie…
But then just kind of half assed it when he had the House and Senate, what progress has happened, Biden has had almost zero involvement in.
Between Israel and the southern border, he’s further right than he started the 2020 primary. I never dreamt he’d be taking either of these positions. I thought by now even he’d draw a line with Israel, and never thought a Dem would pull this border shit and get sued by the ACLU
And I want to point out, as close as 2020 was, I don’t know why people are acting like this time Biden can ignore the left.
To all the Biden defenders: I get it. You’re scared of another Trump term. I’m living in Europe and I’m not a fan of project 2025 myself. I have this seemingly simple question: what happens after the election?
If Biden wins, what do you expect to happen with all the MAGAs? How would you prevent another Jan 6th? What if it succeeded this time? How will you keep Biden accountable? Will you keep avoiding a fascist dictatorship every 4 years until the end of time?
And if Trump wins? Will you give up without a fight? Will you let them turn the US into a fascist theocracy?
Don’t expect that your liberal democracy will sort itself out. There’s too much on the line to hope for the correct election results and everythingsorting itself out afterwards. Have a plan that doesn’t rely on elections and take the safety of your community into your own hands.
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I would gladly not care about US politics if it would leave the rest of the world the fuck alone.
I don’t . . . I mean, agreed! Okay? Hurrah, we’ve achieved an understanding, now will you please let us avoid a massive disaster of hitherto unseen dimensions?! We can talk policy when we’re not literally in an existential crisis.
You’re not avoiding anything. Just postponing it.
The tunnel vision caused by fear is wild to see. It’s like mass halucination and there isn’t anything you can say to get them to look around and take stock.
Boy you are really engaging people in good faith throughout this thread aren’t you?
Least rabid liberal:
I’m kinda to the point of not even reading US political threads on any Lemmy instance. Seems like half the participants are Europeans/Aussies/Canadians who have plenty of loud concern-troll opinions about US politics, but can’t even vote in our elections.
If Biden wins, what do you expect to happen with all the MAGAs?
They will continue to exist, though weakened, and four more years of Democratic executive actions and appointments will steadily move the federal government further away from their position.
How would you prevent another Jan 6th? What if it succeeded this time?
Electing Democrats to critical state roles in 2022 helped a lot here. It’s also useful having the election denier as the challenger, not the incumbent, plus we’re all wise to their playbook. The multiple prosecutions of last cycles conspirators should also put a damper on things.
How will you keep Biden accountable?
Protests, op-eds, pressuring legislators, primary elections, etc.
Will you keep avoiding a fascist dictatorship every 4 years until the end of time?
Yes. Democracy requires active maintenance, from all of us, indefinitely. Giving up is how its enemies win.
Well, some of us actually realize there’s this whole legislative branch that exists, and often has a lot more power than the executive to accomplish things. Shockingly enough, when you don’t have a monolithic view of things, you have an actual chance of changing them.
Your glib answer doesn’t really answer anything.
If Biden wins, what do you expect to happen with all the MAGAs? How would you prevent another Jan 6th? What if it succeeded this time? How will you keep Biden accountable? Will you keep avoiding a fascist dictatorship every 4 years until the end of time?
Trump will die soon. And as much as we worry about MAGA, they are largely the Cult of Trump. He’s silenced any other possible inheritors. We need democracy to outlast Trump.
In the long term, the solutions are better public education and fairer media, but we haven’t even begun to work on that because of the immediate crisis.
And if Trump wins? Will you give up without a fight? Will you let them turn the US into a fascist theocracy?
It’s why I’m so glad I live in California. We tend to not stand for that bullshit. I can absolutely see a secession or even a civil war if they try to use federal troops to enforce Trumpian fascism.
It’s crazy to me that voting is the only political involvement for so many people.
We’re in the middle of a cycle, this is the time to be really loud about what you’d like to see reflected in your party’s policy, but instead everyone has skipped to the end, having relieved themselves of all the hard work of political engagement.
this
Brazil might have a lot of problems, but one thing I think our law gets right is treating voting not as a right, but as a duty, you don’t get to choose not to vote.
You realize people can just vote white or black, yes.
An interesting fact about not voting: you not voting for Biden because “his stance on Isreal is bad” is indistinguishable from your grandma not voting because “Trump will win her county”. Is that the message you want to send?
I’m never really used Tumblr but is it mainly for talking to people that will never read or care what you say?
Am I doing ir right?
It’s still June, it’s still months till the election. People still are entitled to voice their opinion about Bidens policies and demand he takes more steps to the left leveraging the only power they have, their vote. If people can’t demand better policies now, when there is so much time left for Bidens team to course change, when are they allowed? It’s crazy to see these types of posts since the democratic primaries.
As many people in this thread have already pointed out, Joe Biden can enact right wing policy after right wing policy, damaging the support of his core voter base for the slight chance that some Trump fanatic votes for him. But you can’t expect him to try to convince left wing people by enacting progressive stuff, even though none of the candidates currently campaign for them?
It’s insane that in the US, people on the left at the same time have the power to lose Biden the election by not voting for him and have not enough power to get any attention from him. I believe if Trump wins again, it is entirely on Biden and the DNC that they chose this candidate and this course, not having learned anything in 2016.
“Just keep voting Whig” moment.
Or, get super fucked. I mean. Those are literally the choices.
“If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice”
Officially pro-slavery and officially no stance on slavery were literally the choices.
Until they weren’t.
The Whigs made up and influenced much of the newly formed Republican Party but the absolute inability of the Whigs to take a stance on the slavery question caused them to collapse and a new party with an actual stance on slavery take its place.
Okay, so when the Democratic Party collapses and a new party that actually has progressive policies takes its place, we’ll stop voting for Democrats.
But that hasn’t happened yet, and shows zero signs of doing so.
A party that collapses is one people don’t keep voting for. So we will see if the Democratic Party will collapse before changing policies.
You don’t understand. There won’t be free and fair elections if everyone, not just the core constituencies, everyone doesn’t get out and vote Biden.
Or maybe you understand exactly and you don’t give a crap for, let’s say, reasons.
I mean yeah that is the threat posed.
Now one might think that a political party is more than the office of the president, and if that election is the only one that matters then the freedom and fairness of elections probably aren’t as prominent as once thought.
The entire House, 20+ Democratic senators, and a dozen Democratic governors are up for election this year, and they’re having to contend with their party platform. Biden’s campaign and the whole rhetoric of not being Trump to beat Trump does not extend beyond the presidential ticket. It is acting as a dead weight for the entire party.
Keeping control of Congress should be a bit more important to the conversation because we are facing down a filibuster, if not veto proof GOP Congress.
The Democratic party changes policies all the time. Already, a majority of Democrats want us to stop supporting Israel, and Biden has even held up weapons shipments to Israel and started negotiating directly with Hamas. I’d expect more in that direction in the future.
Gay marriage is a huge one. The Dems changed policies on that in an incredibly short period of time, during the Obama administration.
Went from “yeah let’s invade Iraq and stop Saddam!” to “oh man we made a mistake”
Went from “we need to support workers” to “we need to support business” and now back to “we need to support workers” again over 40 years
Y’all need to understand that the Democratic party listens to it’s voters. Leftists don’t represent the whole party, in fact they’re an unreliable fringe group and it’s debatable whether to group them with the Democrats at all.
The DNC doesn’t particularly worry about the Leftist vote, the youth vote, etc because y’all are unreliable as fuck. The DNC cares about lower middle class mid-30s women. The DNC cares about Black single mothers. The DNC cares about highly educated city-dwelling white men. Blocs that fucking vote.
Went from “yeah let’s invade Iraq and stop Saddam!” to “oh man we made a mistake”
Oof.
The change in Israeli policy, accepting gay marriage, rejecting iraq invasion, and support for labor rights… Where and how did the Democratic Party arrive at these positions?
There was a short period of time when the Democratic Party pursued a strategy that involved more than those specific named categories. Howard Dean, another Vermont progressive, ran the DNC from 2005-2009 and helped facilitate Obama’s victory in deep red stated and even a dominating congressional position.
He was removed in 2009. The Democrats have been stringing along some hefty Ls since, even though a progressive, leftist strategy was proven to work.
The faction that beat away Dean is the same that undermined Sanders twice.
https://www.politico.com/story/2009/12/what-if-obama-hadnt-ostracized-dean-030752
Where and how did the Democratic Party arrive at these positions?
That’s an extremely complicated question to answer, but I’m sure you have some simple-sounding conspiracy theory that ties everything together neatly if you don’t look too deeply into it. Let’s hear it.
Revolution will either come, killing most of us, or the train of rampant capitalistic destruction will continue on, killing all of us. We’re not close enough to immediate death for most of us to view revolution as an acceptable answer yet, but I have no doubt that in a few decades, when the young adults of that time look back on the current times and think “they had it so easy,” the risk associated with an uprising will seem much less daunting when compared to the risk of simply living within whatever jumbled-together scraps of a system we’ll have left by then.
Revolution isn’t a solution that any sane person gets excited for; it all but guarantees a short life full of suffering for the vast majority of people, but it’s a solution that is chosen when the alternative is guaranteed suffering for everyone outside of the upper class. It’s the last resort used when the best hope you have for the future is to fight for the chance that a few people make it to peaceful times, because you don’t see any other way for anyone to get there by working within the system.
Voting is important, yes; we get the best chance to make it to a revolution by voting blue, slowing down capitalism’s destruction of the world, but so long as each election is populated by 2 candidates proudly bought out by corporations who don’t give a shit about the world, there will be no viable option within the system to actually stop its destruction. That requires actually changing the system through uprising.
That requires actually changing the system through uprising.
Ah, you crazy kids and your violent revolutions. It’s always fun and games until they start culling the infirm.
But your myopic cynicism is well earned, fair play to you.
Revolution will either come, killing most of us
Historically, its not the revolution that kills you but the reaction.
From America to France to Russia to China to Spain to Vietnam to Cuba, the early years involved a lot of marching and politicking and petitioning and negotiating.
But then some of the revolutionaries win one too many concessions or elections than a current government can stand. That’s when the guns come out and things fall apart.
Your Francos and Pinochets and Chiang Kai-Sheks start pouring out of the woodwork. Your Austrians start invading with support from the British. Or your French reinvade after you just finished pushing out the Japanese.
That’s when the killing starts in earnest.
Or your revolutionaries get executed for not being revolutionary enough (Reign of Terror, October revolution)
The Reign of Terror was kicked off by a wave of paranoia following the Austrian invasion of France.
The October Revolution followed the Russian Republic kicking off a White Terror in the face of continued anti-war demonstrations.
Neither happened in a vacuum. They were both in response to reactionary forces brutalizing the peaceniks within the revolutionary movement. Once the peaceful leadership was neutralized, the war hawks were the only ones left.
That’s a ridiculous interpretation of history and I’m a little amazed that you managed to actually say it with a straight face. Holy tankie revisionism Batman. Literally every bad thing that revolutionaries did was actually because of other people.
And you honestly believe this? That’s as naive as thinking America is the greatest country on Earth, or that the natives welcomed the Pilgrims with open arms, or other comforting childhood ridiculousness.
That’s a ridiculous interpretation of history
A linear series of events? Are you going to start talking about the War of Northern Aggression, next? Denouncing the tyrant Lincoln and his bloodthirsty Radical Republicans, then dismiss Fort Sumter?
Literally every bad thing that revolutionaries did
The collapse of revolutions into violence are precipitated by the caging and killing of its most peaceful members.
natives welcomed the Pilgrims with open arms
You can pull that info directly from Columbus’s own journals. Guanahaní was full of some of the most peaceful and pleasant people to have ever existed. When the Spanish arrived, they immediately began looting, raping, and killing.
Cortez and Pizzaro were originally greated as honored guests, only to return the hospitality with wholesale hostage taking and rampant murder. This is self-reported
When the English arrived, they immediately began kidnapping and torturing natives of the Mid-Atlantic in search of their own golden city. This is also extensively well documented by the original settlers.
But for the next 500 years, the native peoples were described as vicious cannibal savages by settler colomialists whose original contact was no different than a swarm of locusts.
That’s why you think they were evil monsters inhabiting North America who all needed to be Christianized to save their souls. That’s why you think Evil Wicked Godless Communists were doing holocausts all across Eastern Europe right before WW2 broke out. That’s why you’re likely going to buy into the next Big Lie about evil Palestinians, or evil Mexicans, or evil Chinese people next.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Get back to the point: you unconditionally defend revolutionaries and believe they are all saints who can do no wrong.
He’d probably convict biden and fine him 1.5 billion dollars. Maybe.
