Hi everyone, I use Linux on all my machines since a decade. Unfortunately my laptops are getting older and I will probably have to change them soon. Which Laptops would you recommend me to buy in 2025 a part Librem?
I don’t have a high budget but I’m still looking for something relatively recent. I looked on H-node but it seems that there are not a lot of recent things.
I use Debian as a distro.
Try Framework.
You’ll get a laptop sized to your budget and you’ll be able to grow with it, upgrade any part your budget will allow in the future.
Their linux support is excellent.
not to be a downer but you could very likely buy a higher performing laptop than even the top framework laptop for less money than even a minimal build
Yes, but that’s not the point of framework
commenter was suggesting that framework allows you to “grow with your budget”
i don’t think this is exactly true in most situations
Framework is a great concept, a great idea for places technology could go, but even its newest offerings are janky. I’ve seen the reviews from people who want to love them. I too want to love them. The modular tech they’re built around is cool as hell but in terms of daily use laptop that moves with you day in day out, it just ain’t it, imho.
Ive run Linux on multiple think pads, a razer laptop, and an asus gaming laptop, and they all work fine. Buy the hardware that works for you, and put Linux on it. It’s that simple.
I daily drive my framework 13 since the first batch, upgraded twice the mobo. I run it on arch Linux, 0 issue whatsoever even after a year bringing it on site like the Texan boonies or on boats in the middle of the golf of Mexico … Compatibility wise with linux, 100% of the peripherals work, even the finger reader thing.
I don’t want to denigrate people that it works for, because I know the people that love them love them.
Has the battery life (more specifically drain while in suspend) gotten better? I’ve heard horror stories on that, port availability (pretty limited ports because each port attachment takes up so much space) and some complaints about build quality and durability.
Love mine and daily drive it. Not janky, zero issues. Everything works on Linux. Not sure what you’re referring to.
Can you get more bang for your buck? Yes, to start. But let’s compare after a couple of upgrades on mine vs whole laptop replacements with other brands.
You can also buy it second hand or get an older version for less money and upgrade later.
The upgradability and reparability is also a cost saving factor on the longer run. I broke the screen once and instead of buying a new laptop or have a costly repair, I just got a replacement for 200 bucks and fixed it easily myself.
Framework laptops are not great actually. They basically are offloading their qa/qc onto customers. They routinely ship defective units new out of the box and try to make you do all their engineering work for them.
The quality of the components is meh at best. If I were doing it again, I would go the ThinkPad route.
Framework is a bunch of VC funded shills who see the right to repair movement as a resource they can exploit.
My friends had about the same amount oft issues with their thinkpad as me with the fw.
I agree, that there are many issues, but you don’t notice them in daily use.
The support is very good with most people, I seem to have bad luck, but once I got someone helpful, it got solved super quick.
I still recommend fw. I wish they would redo the fw13 and improve upon all the little issues everyone had, but mine still goes strong and I hope it will for many years to come
They’re a bit expensive up front, but I’m really enjoying my Framework.
Open source hardware
NovaCustom: Coreboot, Linux support, customizable, spare parts.
I have no personal experience, but their products seem nice, though expensive.
I’m loving my Framework, have Mint on there. Thinkpads are also well regarded I believe
Consider taking a look at this criminally underrated Linux-first vendor: NovaCustom. Prices aren’t cheap, unfortunate. But it boasts hardware from about a year ago. Furthermore, NovaCustom takes Libre very seriously: from supporting coreboot to offering blob-free WiFi-cards.
Best is Framework in every regard. Works 100%, great Linux support, specify exactly what you want and it’s fully repairable. (They’re also by far the most satisfying machine to unbox, given you have to plug it all together yourself)
Lenovo and Dell are okay, in my experience. The odd thing but generally fair quality hardware and reasonably compatible. (Thinkpad quality isn’t what it used to be, so don’t pay a premium thinking it’ll last, Lenovo are trading on its past glories)
Avoid HP - shoddy flimsy things now, and with a lot of bespoke drivers (graphics and audio, plus function buttons in particular)
There’s quite a lot of random-branded Chinese laptops around now. I’ve no direct experience of them, but I imagine they’re exactly how you’d expect them to be. Cheap, tailored for the OS they ship with, but will probably work to some degree. Linux is past its initial hardware problems (and to be fair, hardware is problematic now)
There’s another thread that’s a few years old, but still contains some useful info - such as “Check the Arch Wiki”
I’ve used ThinkPads for ages and it’s very true they have become more and more ordinary as the years go by, but I recently got given a high spec Dell for a new job and it’s been very disappointing. In particular the keyboard is terrible to the point that on business trips I bring an external keyboard with me. I also sorely miss a trackpoint, but to many people that is not an issue.
I was also surprised that I miss the ThinkPad ability to open up 180°.
Maybe not what you’re looking for, but I use Asahi Linux on an old M1 MacBook Air and it’s quite nice. I bought it used for $480 last year.
Does everything work on it? Sleep/hibernate too?
I think hibernate is a missing function - I’ve never tried it though. Here’s a good write-up on the pros/cons and potential issue depending on your use case :
https://www.anuragrao.site/blog/05-asahi-linuxthat’s a fantastic writeup and i wished something like it existed for all laptops; thanks for sharing it.
i’ve been meaning to purchase a new windows laptop to understand what the linux experience is like for most people today; but i’ve learned that i’ve been so spoiled from buying linux only laptops with on-par performance with windows that the prospect of paying so much money for something with that’s very likely to be subpar compared to windows makes me hesitate.
writeups like this would make it easier for me to make an informed decision and i understand why they don’t exist for most windows laptops; i just wished it did.
Agreed! Knowing what I was getting myself into was the only reason I even bought my MacBook. One thing not mentioned in that write-up is that if you increase your swap file size to offset the limited RAM it’s surprisingly quick still, I assume due to a fast nvme drive. For my use case it’s perfect. I’m even able to run some LLMs using Ollama that don’t otherwise work with 8gb of memory.
For Windows machines I’ve found the Linux experience has vastly improved over the years. It seems that most mass-market hardware is functional right out of the box.
i think that, that’s the highest testament to all the work that’s been put into linux; it works ok on anything and i wish that laptops didn’t cost so much that paying for “ok” (instead of perfect) didn’t hurt so much.
https://kfocus.org/spec/spec-ir16.html this is an absolute gem, built just for linux. It comes with KUbuntu preinstalled but can be wiped and replaced with any flavor of linux, and all of the hardware and laptop functionality is fully supported by linux.
Framework is way overhyped and even more overpriced. Its “upgradeability” is totally unrealistic at best, scam at worst. Sure you can pop in a new USB port or display output, but that’s about it before you’re replacing the entire guts to upgrade it and keeping just the worn out case and screen…? Gee sounds great… Repairability is a real point for framework though. Can you still not update the BIOS on linux? Its linux support is historically not great but may have improved
replacing the entire guts
That’s not how it works at all though… What? The RAM and SSD are individually replaceable, and the screen, speaker system, and chassis all have individual upgrades that have been released with time too (for the 13, at least). The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade, and even then that’s just the mainboard, not the RAM, SSD, etc., which is pretty on-par with, say, a desktop anyway as often a meaningful CPU upgrade will include switching to a newer platform and therefore a new motherboard.
Not saying the Framework has no issues at all whatsoever, but that’s sure not one of them.
So… all the normal stuff that is normally upgradeable on a normal laptop is upgradeable for framework too? Good point…
The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade
That’s exactly my point, yes. Again, the “upgradeability” of a framework laptop is unrealistic at best and a scam at worst. It’s exactly as upgradeable as most laptops unless you’re replacing the whole mainboard which is not very realistic. By that point there is likely enough wear and tear that it makes no sense to keep the case, keyboard, and screen… and with framework premium prices you aren’t saving money on the SSD or RAM (which, no, you likely can’t reuse on a CPU upgrade, most likely you’ll be going DDR4->DDR5). I do give them credit for repairability, which is great, but “upgradeability” specifically is basically a marketing scam and will not make any sense for 99% of users.
I expected the downvotes on my comment because my opinion goes against the framework fanboys, but I hope my suggestion of KFocus IR16 is not discounted because of my opinions on framework. It is truly a great choice for linux compatibility
so all the normal stuff that’s normally upgradable
That’s just the thing, though. Soldered RAM and even drives is becoming more and more common these days, especially in the Apple space. But, the main thing here is user replaceable. I don’t know when you last swapped the RAM on a laptop, but on most consumer laptops these days it is a nightmare. With Framework, it’s 5 screws (the driver for which is included in the box, but also just standard torx) and you’re in, and they have a QR code to a guide on how to do the replacement for first timers. I know it can be hard to take if you’re used to pulling apart computers for fun, I come from there too, but the easy user upgradeability is seriously, literally, actually a great selling point on the Framework.
Also, the case, screen, trackpad, etc that get all the wear and tear are just as easily replaced if that’s your hang up.
especially in the Apple space
Offtopic, we are discussing linux laptops.
With Framework its 5 screws
Aw gee, then Framework wins! With Focus IR16 its nine phillips screws… 😩
OK I had a great weekend not thinking about this thread (Yes I know it’s not been the weekend for a couple of days now, it was extended), so I’m going to write one more message on this and then just leave it as is. My main issue is that you straight up said the upgradeability is a scam. It’s clear from this thread you’ve never worked in repair or had to upgrade a consumer-grade laptop from the last 10 years - which is fine but you shouldn’t go throwing around such harsh phrases as “scam” for it. Framework has a legitimately good product that could feasibly be the last laptop you ever buy - for example, their most recent refresh of the Framework 13 mainboard will work in the original chassis, despite numerous design revisions over the last 5 years. Very few other devices in the space, even those designed to be upgraded, can be brought up to the newest version with just a mainboard replacement (this is one of my biggest issues with FairPhone, but that’s not really related to the topic at hand). Similarly, the new 12" is more easily upgraded than ever with the swap to pogo pins on the keyboard rather than a ribbon cable for the keyboard. I truly think I could give my mother a Framework and she would be able to keep it up-to-date without any input from the members of my family who have repair experience.
On this topic:
Offtopic, we are discussing linux laptops
The Asahi Linux project is nothing to sneeze at, and some of the most competent Linux users I know are on either an Intel or M-whatever Mac. Being an Apple device does not exclude it from being a Linux laptop, though I would never personally recommend them to a user, new or old.
On this because I forgot to address it:
I hope my suggestion of KFocus IR16 is not discounted because of my opinions on framework
It does look like a good laptop, and I think you should have separated your comments out because now your actually pretty decent recommendation is going to be buried because it was paired with an unrelated and fairly ignorant take.
nine phillips screws…
Credit where credit is due, I would have like phillips, but I do also understand the use case for torx on the Framework (plus it comes with a screwdriver, which fixes the main “who has a torx driver?” issue with torx). Either way, I’m not looking to discount the potential reparability or upgradeability of the IR16, I don’t have one and can’t weigh in there, If your position had been “This laptop manages to actually be more upgradeable than the Framework, whilst also being built for Linux first”, there would be no problem there (provided you could back that claim up), but outright calling it a scam? Come on man…
Long and short, no, I would not call the upgradeability of the Framework a “marketing scam”. Thus far, a Framework laptop 13 built the day they released 5 years ago could be not only continually used and repaired for those 5 years, but also brought up-to-date with the latest hardware with relatively little user effort in comparison to similarly sized and spec’d consumer laptops, and without needing to buy a whole new device - you can just “ship of Theseus” the thing. Note that when I say “hardware”, I don’t just mean the fun buzzword-y hardware like CPU and RAM, but also things like keyboards, speakers, the screen, the charger/cable, and other similar components that a user is less likely to think about wanting to improve at the time of purchase, but would otherwise be hurting for newer versions of 5+ years down the line.
Can framework physically be upgraded? Yes. Is that practical, realistic, or something the makes sense for a typical user to actually do (beyond RAM and hard drives, which is common to be able to replace on most laptops already)? No. See all the reasons I’ve already covered. To market the product based on that like it is something great that a user will expect to do and why they should buy it, is pretty scammy behavior, especially when the laptop is priced at a premium and this is justified by these impractical features.
Ir16 is as repairable and as easy as framework to replace/upgrade typical components as one should expect for a laptop, like RAM, hard drives, and network card. You remove 9 screws, the bottom panel comes right off, and there is access to those components. I wouldn’t expect to easily replace other parts of it or the entire mainboard, but again, no one is practically going to be doing that with framework either anyway.
an unrelated and fairly ignorant take
It’s actually related (given all of the comments suggesting framework and parroting scam marketting points), and not ignorant, just realistic. People often want to defend their purchase after they’ve been duped.
You’re worried about the screen being worn out? How does a screen wear out (excluding maybe oled burn in, but this aint oled). And a good chassis shouldn’t show that much wear after a few years.
If the laptop is old enough to merit CPU upgrade, then its likely already experienced plenty of wear and tear. Also I never said anything about the screen wearing out, I specifically said the case. I gave credit that at least the screen would carry over
in a few years
You’d think the point of repair and upgrade would be for the laptop to exist and be used for more than just a “few years” (otherwise what is the point?) so consider the realistic and more likely case of upgrading it more than a few years from now. Its worth it to keep an old used case, especially when you are paying a premium for framework?
It’s great that it can be repaired easily though and there are internal parts available for purchase, but you can also find internal parts to many laptops available if you look for them, the only real difference is ease of repair
I considered buying framework for my laptop but once I thought about it realistically, it stopped making much sense.
What “merits” needing a CPU upgrade? I upgraded from a core i9 11950h to a 13900h machine because I needed more performance. That 11th gen machine still looks pristine besides one spot where a cat bit the corner of the lid. Even my piddling around machine wasn’t up to snuff and upgraded from a 10th gen i5 to a 12th gen system. That machine’s keyboard was a bit worn when I first got it, but it’s not (appreciably) worse now. Besides that and maybe the palm rest the chassis is in pretty good condition. Why does it matter if the keycaps are a little smooth? Or there’s a small scuff on one corner. Or a cat punctured the bezel of the display and somehow didn’t break anything.
Either you’re holding onto the case for many many years continuously upgrading, which I question why an old case is so valuable to not just replace it too when you replace the entire mainboard, or you’re not, which makes me question the entire “upgradeable” concept.
Either way it doesn’t really make sense. You can easily upgrade the parts that don’t require a whole new mainboard, already, on literally any other laptop (hard drives, RAM, network card, battery).
It’s neat that you can customize the ports on it and swap them out, which is the only real difference from any other laptop, but to me it seems like a gimmick and doesn’t justify framework premium price when there are plenty of laptops out there with the ports that I need already
Also upgrading CPUs that are so close in generation and only a marginal performance difference like you have done is atypical and does not reflect the purchasing behavior of 99% of users. There’s no real perceivable performance difference between those two CPUs for what most people actually use a laptop to do: web browse and word process.
My top pick for a Linux laptop would be the Dell XPS 13 9310. It’s old I guess, from 2020. But the build quality and Linux support is excellent. You could get a used one from eBay for around 400USD.
Alternatively, maybe you could look for a used Thinkpad X1 Carbon. I’ve purchased several of those in the past and have had really good experiences with them. The hardware is great and the software support is excellent.
I would avoid Framework. I actually just switched back to the Dell XPS 13 9310 after a year of using the Framework. Linux support on the Framework is just not as good as some other laptops. The biggest con of Framework is the HiDPI display. You will never get the display to look good. You’ll have to do a ton of tweaking and debugging—and you’ll still have some apps that are blurry or have weirdly sized icons or text. See: https://lemmy.today/post/22761155/13770242
I haven’t used the XPS 13 personally but my experience and all my friends’ experience with the XPS lineup is that despite their build quality, they’re quite prone to failure. On my 15, the keyboard failed multiple times, as well as one of the fans and eventually one thunderbolt port, all within a span of 4 years.
They’re beautiful machines that really should be quality, but in practice for some reason they haven’t lasted for me. On the plus side though, Dell does at least offer service manuals, and lots of parts can be replaced by a user (on the 15 you can easily replace fans, RAM, SSDs, and with some work you can replace the top deck, display, and SD reader).
the keyboard failed multiple times, as well as one of the fans and eventually one thunderbolt port
Aw, dang. That sucks.
I’m typing this on a 2020 9310 and fortunately it’s been pretty solid for me. Everything still works great. If anything, the palm rests are a little worn now, but that’s about it. I also have an older XPS 9370 from 2018 that I keep as a spare and that’s still working fine as well.
I haven’t had to open up this laptop yet, but good to know there are service manuals. Thanks!
I’m glad to hear yours have been holding up! Maybe my friends and I were just particularly unlucky.
The service manuals are available direct from Dell. For all the laptop’s faults in my experience, I do appreciate that the SSDs are socketed, as are the RAM sticks on the 15. I do also appreciate that Dell sells replacement batteries (and they aren’t glued in either!) as that’s usually the first part to need a swap.
Do you want mainstream brands that work well with Linux? Lenovo or Dell
Do you want smaller brands that are specialised and support Linux? Tuxedo, System76, Slimbook, Purism…
StarLabs
True, I forgot about them! Their tablet is pretty cool too.
Tuxedo is a bit hit or miss. Used one for 2 years and wasn’t happy with the case quality. The plastic basically broke at some edges and screw holes
The hardware also wasn’t as Linux compatible as they claim. 5Ghz wifi just didn’t work reliably. With their support page saying the fix is to disable 5Ghz
I want to support tuxedo, as an European brand, but the last one I bought had such a shitty screen that got worse and worse over the years. They seem to have improved the hardware somewhat but the experience left a bad taste in my mouth.
