• humanspiral@lemmy.ca
    5·
    17 hours ago

    So many US empire simps here mistake opposition to their evil, and counterproductive diminishment of Americans and Europeans who simp for the empire, as supporting the Russian non-empire who needs to defend itself, and understands fully, despite any absurd propaganda to the contrary, that it needs to defend itself from US empire attempting to demonically diminish it.

    Your propaganda bubble means you cannot and will never have nice things, including any climate supporting human sustainability. Heads are so far empire ass, that advising you it stinks up there, only makes you understand it as an order to move to Russia.

    • FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      115·
      2 days ago

      (in a similar vein)

      There is a third choice, where you say both are bad (ie. anarchists and pure marxists). But most people on lemmy.ML are Marxist Leninists (ML) who simp for authotarian states that call themselves socialist, like Russia, China, and North Korea.

        • L/nerd@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          37·
          2 days ago

          ain’t no fucking way this fella’s calling china and north korea resistance to the bourgeoisie and imperialism

        • FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          45·
          2 days ago

          Pure Marxist, Classical Marxist, Orthodox Marixst, whetever you want to call people who follow Marxism without Leninst or other authoritarian leaning interpretations.

          They are the only countries who resist the western bourgeoisie imperial order

          By trying to create their own imperial order. Nazi Germany also resisted the western imperialist order by trying to create their own imperial order.

          Your point about Russia not even pretending to be socialist is very much true. Which makes it more baffling that some people on ML support it. Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            17·
            2 days ago

            The number of Marxists who explicitly reject Lenin make up a tiny minority of the overall number of Marxists globally, and the ones who do so reside almost exclusively in Western Countries. Trying to uphold rejections of Lenin’s expansions on Marx’s original writings as “pure” doesn’t really fit with that.

            Secondly, no Marxist supports the Russian Federation, they see it as a horrible Capitalist regime that is temporarily working against the United States out of desparation. The concept of “critical support” is accepting that someone you entirely disagree with ideologically can be fighting a shared enemy, no more and no less.

            Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?

            Critically support, somewhat, and the argument is that in a geopolitical context the US is more dangerous to Socialist movements than countries opposing US hegemony at the moment, and that once US hegemony is toppled these countries that once had “critical support” can be turned into the next enemy to be fought, assuming they don’t come to Socialism before then. The very fact that you say which is worse is “arguable” lends validity to the concept of critical support, as the alternative is further US domination of the Global South.

            Even then, Marxists are divided on Russia with respect to whether or not to even critically support it. The notion that there are Marxists that support the Russian Federation outright as an example of Marxism is fantasy.

            • obre@lemmy.world
              22·
              2 days ago

              Ah, yes, Lenin. Definitely the creator of Marxism-Leninism, no reason to talk about the other guy. Don’t look up anything about Stalin, he’s harder for tankies to whitewash, not that they won’t fall ass over teakettle trying. It’s their job after all.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                7·
                2 days ago

                Lenin created the theory, he didn’t call himself a “Marxist-Leninist” just like Marx didn’t call himself a “Marxist.” In the context of the comment I replied to, they specifically cited Orthodox Marxists, a fringe minority among Marxists that intentionally reject Lenin.

            • Zagorath@aussie.zoneEnglish
              3·
              2 days ago

              Ok, so if I’m understanding this correctly, you’re supportive of the actions of countries that oppress their own people (e.g. Russia’s anti-LGBT+ laws, China’s oppression of Uyghurs and Tibetans, etc.), aggressively invade other countries (as Russia is doing in Ukraine, as China sort of did with Hong Kong’s semi-independence and is threatening to do to Taiwan, not to mention their enforcement of their claims in Vietnamese and Filipino waters), without being supportive of the countries themselves. Because you think that those countries causing harm to the western world is likely to eventually lead to the west doing less harm to the developing world, and/or help accelerate the proletarian revolution in western countries?

              Is that a fair (in content, if not in tone) assessment of your stance?

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                4·
                1 day ago

                I wouldn’t say that’s a fair assessment of my comment, plus I very specifically did not give my stance as my goal was to dispell the myth that any Marxists approve of the Russian Federation’s Capitalism, ultranationalism, reactionary social views, etc. I don’t want to give my personal stance here, as

                1. That would take far too long for a simple Lemmy thread to convey with any real complexity, and

                2. What I personally believe doesn’t matter here, it wouldn’t lead to productive conversation to begin with as Marxism is not a monolith (which was the central point of my last paragraph)

                • Zagorath@aussie.zoneEnglish
                  2·
                  19 hours ago

                  Ok, I guess you’re a lost cause then. Your comments in this thread had me almost thinking I was speaking to someone reasonable, but nope…just typical tankie bullshit.

            • TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee
              30·
              2 days ago

              Literally ignoring the slaughter of Uyghurs and Ukranians, never mind how China is essentially building up the hate speech against Japan and Taiwan within the populace through their state controlled social networks. Get back to us when you can criticize China in the same way. Same for Russia, extreme jail sentences are dished out for anyone who criticizes Putin. You are too much of a caricature, and exactly what the meme refers to.

              The USSR was a victim of trying to outimperial an imperialist power and going bankrupt, and now it’s an oligarchy with Putin at the top and any serious opposition dead and out the window / irradiated with polinium / poisoned by Novichok. China has literal execution vans driving around the country, has extended its secret police deep state overseas to intimidate Chinese who don’t play ball, and constantly rewrites its map to expand to land they want to claim as theirs. They are in border disputes with India, they are actively preparing to invade Taiwan, they have blockaded the island several times now, they have cooperated to cut undersea cables, have militarized fishing fleets that migrate world wide and bully local fishermen and exhaust the local stocks. And all you have is that raging desire to whatabout “b-b-but the US does it / does worse!” right about now and a whole bunch of rhetoric that makes you a puppet of it.

              Russia is where it is at because it has chosen this road. Before Putin tried to use the myth of restablishing USSR to enlarge the rule of his oligarchy, it was well on its way to being quite influential in Europe, so much so that it was a major partner of Germany. Russia chose conquest and sides with dictators who exploit their people. It’s telling that the US is at its worst when it has the people who collude closest with Russia.

            • FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              29·
              2 days ago

              Interesting that the only examples of Marxist countries followed the Leninist model

              Perhaps because in China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the authoritarian branches.

              socialist world order

              I’m not okay with a world order supported by countries like China and North Korea, pretending to be “socialist” while having murdered anarchists, LGBT people, people with disabilities and ethnic minorities.

  • lugal@sopuli.xyz
    40·
    2 days ago

    Stalin says to Kropotkin: “The difference between us is that you’re an aristocrat while I’m from the working class.”
    Kropotkin answer: “True, but we also have something in common: We are both class traitors.”

  • regdog@lemmy.world
    30·
    2 days ago

    Every time this gets reposted I need to point out that it is spelled: “You are not an anti-imperialist”

    English is stupid.

  • orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts
    20·
    2 days ago

    Simping for any government leadership is just gross. These people don’t actually care about protecting the working class; they just want power, money, and recognition. As soon as you put a human into that role, they corrupt in one way or another. It’s why I clarify that I support the struggling working class under any ruler. The fight is always about them and ensuring they have human rights and a right to self-determination.

    Every person I’ve met in my lifetime that lived under communism had nothing good to say about it, and they were all working class. Some pasty white dudes in America don’t know shit about that and never will. They get into a fantasy loop because living under capitalism fucking sucks, and dreaming about something perceived as better is understandable.

    I recommend people read Marx and keep trying to unite the working class. Take the good pieces and stop idolizing people. As soon as you idolize a person, you are incapable of being able to identify when they do or say something terrible.

    • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
      80·
      2 days ago

      Way to downplay the self determination of smaller countries! Ukraine allies with the US for the same reason Vietnam often sides with the US over China: the empire next door is a bigger problem than the empire on the other side of the planet. The US is the lesser evil in those situations, especially in Ukraine’s case.

      The alternative is being an actual puppet to an empire that sees you as nothing but a buffer and a breadbasket. Being under the thumb of a reformed empire that inflicted famine and genocide on you and other neighbors. The ethnic Russian makeup of post Soviet countries isn’t a mistake, but an example of deliberate imperialism by that Russian empire.

      In terms of this disrespect, Ukraine got of easy compared to countries like Kazakhstan. I don’t care how much you complain about landowners in Ukraine, I dare you to defend the population control and environmental destruction there as anything less than imperialist cruelty.

      The Soviet Union was a red-washed Russian empire, not some model system that was much different than the liberty-clad American empire. It was not made of equal states, but a dominant power squeezing the rest. Nationalistic bullshit is what the selfish turn to when capitalism runs its course, and that’s what this tankie bullshit is: counter-revolutionary garbage where nothing fundamentally changes. The answers will never be that easy.

      • Tar_Alcaran@sh.itjust.works
        51·
        2 days ago

        The ethnic Russian makeup of post Soviet countries isn’t a mistake, but an example of deliberate imperialism by that Russian empire.

        Indeed. it’s the result of genocide. A genocide still ongoing in Ukraine as we speak. Which is something we should be mentioning a lot more

        • RogueBanana@lemmy.zipEnglish
          19·
          2 days ago

          But… But… Nazis or some shit, its perfectly fine since they are all Nazis for sure. We will save Ukraine with this 3 day operation.

        • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
          17·
          2 days ago

          Duped by the west into wanting protection from their imperialist neighbor? I wonder why they’d want that? 🤔

          America being an evil empire doesn’t make Russia justified in throwing half a million lives down the drain like it’s nothing. Ukraine was never expected by anybody to join NATO until Crimea, and even then, most of the West would’ve preferred neutrality for Ukraine. It was a redline for most of NATO as well, because they knew it was more trouble than it was worth. Wannabe imperial powers like Turkey play their own game, even within NATO.

          US bad ≠ Russia good. Russia is very, very bad actually.

          • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
            1·
            16 hours ago

            most of the West would’ve preferred neutrality for Ukraine.

            While true, just makes a war only for Ukraine’s NATO aspiration that much stupider, or more likely dishonest.

        • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
          23·
          2 days ago

          It would have been better if Russia had abided by the Minsk II agreement. Better yet, if the Budapest memorandum had been enforced and Russia not invaded its sovereign neighbor to begin with. But power is the only language Russia speaks.

          • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
            1·
            16 hours ago

            Not clear how Russia didn’t abide by Minsk. Ukraine/west are the ones who didn’t abide. You’re saying running out of patience is “not abiding”?

      • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
        9·
        2 days ago

        Those bombs are blowing up people in Ukraine, statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is.

        Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine? Has that been true one single time since WWII?

        There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.

          • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
            5·
            2 days ago

            Its only choice is how many of it’s kids they want to send into a meatgrinder trying to hold onto the Russian-speaking territories whose people it didn’t seem to like very much before the invasion, and it seems to like even less now.

            There’s no realistic way for Ukraine to push Russia out, let alone deal with the resulting insurgency. Same applies if Russia tried to hold the Ukrainian-majority territories. Actually they’re probably in for an insurgency either way given their conduct.

        • wandermind@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          28·
          2 days ago

          statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is

          Surely you understand the very different nature of America’s recent conflicts (air strikes on small numbers of militants living among civilians) to the war in Ukraine (frontlines where civilians have been evacuated and every building has been destroyed). Or taking your numbers of 10 to 140 civilians for every enemy combatant, are you suggesting that Ukrainian soldiers have killed on the order of a million to ten million civilians as “collateral damage”?

          Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine?

          I believe that is irrelevant to the Ukrainians. They are happy to get any support they can to help fight off their would-be oppressors. Whether or not America is interested in improving the conditions for the people of Ukraine, it only takes one look at Russia and then at the EU to see where the common people have a better standard of living.

          There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.

          Of those three, only Russia can end the war unilaterally with no downsides to any party. Ukraine can only end the war unilaterally if they want to be subjugated under Russian oppression. I fail to see how America could end the war unilaterally. Even if they cut all military support to Ukraine, Ukrainians will keep fighting because they do not want to be ruled by Russia.

        • belastend@slrpnk.net
          8·
          2 days ago

          Russia invade inspite of not just agreements, actual treaties, which guarantee Ukraine the liberty to conduct their own foreign policy as they pleased in exchange for their nuclear arsenal.

        • wandermind@sopuli.xyz
          10·
          2 days ago

          Can you provide a link to a page which shows the text of these agreements? Or maybe the Wikipedia pages of some of the specific agreements you are referring to?

          • surph_ninja@lemmy.world
            3·
            2 days ago

            The Minsk Agreements.

            So you’ve done the playing dumb part of your script, and legitimizing Wikipedia as a credible source. Now you’ll move onto the part of, ‘actually I know all about those, and here’s why they don’t count.’

            You guys need a new script.

            • wandermind@sopuli.xyz
              8·
              2 days ago

              Nice job trying to pre-empt any criticism of your position because you know by your own admission that the role of the Minsk Agreements has been debunked repeatedly. That’s also why you didn’t mention them by name to begin with.

              But no, I was not going to say that, because that would be engaging in a “did not” “did too” slap fight which will ultimately end up going nowhere. I prefer to take at face value whatever you guys claim, and then ask questions about the details of your position until we get somewhere where you’d have to admit that your position is inconsistent with itself, that you claim two or more contradictory things to be true at the same time. Usually at that point there is either no more reply or some crazy deflection.

              So answer me this, if you can: Why did the violation of the Minsk Agreements make Putin decide to do a full-scale invasion of Ukraine instead of more negotiations to stop the fighting? Is peace not the ultimate and most important goal?

              • surph_ninja@lemmy.world
                4·
                2 days ago

                There it is. Seriously, you NAFO bots need a new script. The playing dumb part of it makes you stand out like a sore thumb.

                You’re still doing it, too. Pretending you’re not aware of any of the facts or historical context outside of your comment. Which if I then bring up, then you’ll suddenly be aware of those too so that you can argue against it. I’ve done this back and forth with you turds too many times to be caught off guard. And you haven’t changed your methodology in a couple of years.

                Is the intention that you don’t want to reveal too much incriminating info for Ukraine and the west? Like only acknowledge them to argue against them, and hope they’re not brought up at all?

                • wandermind@sopuli.xyz
                  8·
                  2 days ago

                  The historical context is clear enough that there is no need to talk about any of it: the current events are a continuation of centuries of Russian expansionist imperialist aggression. Their excuses may change but the fact of Russian imperialism does not.

    • Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
      8·
      2 days ago

      Ukraine desperately wants those bombs. They remember what it was like living under Russian imperialist rule. They remember that Russia genocided 10% of their population the last time they were conquered.

      • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
        5·
        2 days ago

        Ukraine desperately wants those bombs

        The government of Ukraine wants those bombs to take control over a territory filled with people they are openly hostile to. The people, like all people, want to live in peace.

        Do you really think that this particular bourgeoisie democracy, unlike all the others, represents the people? One that has suspended elections and throws people in prison for “questioning Ukraine’s territorial integrity”?

        Every single military action the US has taken since WWII, the US has been acting directly contrary to the interests of the people it claimed to be helping, and every single time the US population gets duped into thinking this time they’re there to help. Why do you think this one is different?

        • Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
          9·
          2 days ago

          What they’re defending against is being raped, murdered, starved and having their children stolen by Russia. All you Tankies always try to distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses left in Russia’s wake. You don’t get to ignore the 300 thousand children stolen by Russia or the 5 million killed in the Holodomor.

          • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
            3·
            2 days ago

            distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses

            You are the one advocating for more human lives to be sacrificed over some nationalist horseshit. Every bomb we send adds more corpses to the pile. I want peace as quickly as possible.

            • Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
              5·
              2 days ago

              The Holodomor happened years after Russia achieved their so-called “peace”. The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation. The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose and preferably Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity.

              • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
                2·
                2 days ago

                The holodomor happened to the USSR during wide-spread crop failure, it’s kinda irrelevent to modern Russia.

                The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation

                There will be similar amounts of suffering and death under the other bourgeoisie democracy run by a literal billionaire. Either would be far, far better for the people than what they are experiencing now.

                Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity

                Yup, same with Zelensky, Biden, Trump, and most every other leader who could stop this and doesn’t.

                The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose

                No, the only way to put an end to it is peace.

    • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
      14·
      2 days ago

      “America should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting Russia.

      It’s like saying lobbying to continue the usage of fossil fuel is not supporting oil company.

    • djsoren19@yiffit.net
      18·
      2 days ago

      That’s kinda the most insane part about tankies supporting Putin to me. Russia is basically Reagan’s wet dream right now, their entire government and economic system was built in the image American capitalists wanted. To support Putin is to support the Western hegemony, but since Russia was the Soviet Union once, Tankies just give it a free pass? Wtf?