NOTICE:
I realise now that the main problem here was my post on Hexbear, It was shitty and failed to get across my actual views. I still wish I could’ve been allowed to properly discuss it, but I understand the decision to ban me. Looking at my original post, I can very much get why that is ban worthy, even though that wouldn’t be my decision. What happened happened, as much as I’d like to further expand upon my views, I’ll try not to waste your time by trying to explain my views that I fully do not understand, that I’ve developed throughout the process of arguing with people in the comments. I feel silly for making this such a big deal, sorry. You could look through my replies here to see a further expounded on version of this post here. It really boils down to misunderstanding and semantics, I agree with most of the substance of the comments on this post on their face, it is just that often argued in favour of things I didn’t mean to. My view of anti-Semitism boils down to, yes it is present, but it is not systemic. As I already mentioned, you can look through the replies if you want to see more of that
Click here to view the original version of this post
I recently made a post that, according to the moderator which banned me, “conflated Judaism with Zionism”. The post did not in any way conflate Judaism with Zionism, it was me being tired of people trying to center anti-Semitism and over inflate the presence it has in society.
It had an inflammatory title, “I don’t give a shit about anti-Semitism”, which I can get why people would find problematic. But the text if the post was not in any way conflating Zionism with Judaism. I explained the reasons for the rise in anti-Semitism, the genocide the Israeli state is carrying out, and why I am tired of people acting like it is of most importance.
Jewish people are not systemically oppressed, they’ve been integrated into Western society, into whiteness. What has happened to Jewish people and their assimilation is similar to the experience of Italians and the Irish (in America). There will be no Holocaust 2.0, Jewish people in NYC are not at threat of being lynched. The victim mentality and the centering of the Jewish experience only plays into Jewish supremacism, Zionism. Jews are not special, it shouldn’t be controversial to say that.
I’ll repeat the analogy I made in the original post: Imagine if your main concern was the safety of German minorities after they did the Holocaust. It’s completely ridiculous and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I suspect the main reason for the “conflating Zionism with Judaism” part is me saying most Jewish people support Israel, which Is a fact. I pointed this out as a reason for the (over-exaggerated) rise in anti-Semitism. I did not even once state anything in opposition to Judaism and Jewishness in in of itself, only gave reasons to the generalisations. I can forgive someone taking this as somehow conflating the two in the context of, I repeat, the inflammatory title, but what I said wasn’t in any way remotely that.
To quote Prof. Finkelstein, on when he asked his mother if she had ever met a decent German:
I remembered one German soldier, he had a kind of a guilty look on his face.
That was all she could remember—one. So it doesn’t surprise me that she loathed all Germans.
This is what I was getting at. A common response to seeing a genocide committed by Jews is, albeit irrationally, to loathe all Jews. Just like, for a time, people hated all Germans. To center the hate towards Germans in the post war years would be seen as ridiculous, rightfully so. Even more ridiculous is to imply this will somehow transfer into violent lynchings.
People like us should know that Zionism and Nazism are not contradictory ideologies, they can coexist and work together (and have historically). So why (I am referencing the replies to my post, not the moderator who banned me) is it that people think Elon throwing a sieg heil is a sign of an imminent Holocaust in the USA? The main donor of Trump is a Jewish Zionist. I repeat, Jews are not at threat. It is ridiculous and, as I already said, plays into Jewish supremacy.
In the brief period where the post was up, I did not receive any real counter arguments, only people flinging insults who clearly either did not understand the text I wrote or didn’t even read through it. I was then of course banned. I expected the forum named @askchapo to be open to discussion. I am sure if I had an actual conversation on the topic with the moderator who banned me, I’d either be able to convince them of the content of the post, or have my own mind changed.
Bans shouldn’t just be thrown around like that, especially considering the content of my post. The text giving reason to the ban was a single sentence, it did not touch on the content of the post. Just “conflating Judaism with Zionism”, that’s it. No specific line of text was noted.
At last I’d like to add that the post was primarily in response to liberal Zionists like Owen Jones and other such figures, not to fellow leftists. Figures who disingenuously over inflate the importance of anti-Semitism, its presence and general effect.
I fully agree that anti-Semitism usually leads right back into far-right ideologies that are in staunch opposition to us, but that is not what I was trying to argue against in the post.
Click here to view the post on Hexbear
Sympathy for your loss. I hope they unban you (don’t make the same mistake though, you have to be clear you’re talking of ‘anti-semitism’ in relation to Israel)
If you’re talking about Israel, I’m sure they don’t give a shit
In the brief period where the post was up, I did not receive any real counter arguments, only people flinging insults who clearly either did not understand the text I wrote or didn’t even read through it. I was then of course banned. I expected the forum named @askchapo to be open to discussion.
Really? Let’s see the comments
plinky (polite)
i mean, if they support existence of isntreal, they are nazis, and why are you arguing with nazis?
if they don’t then you can talk.that’s leaving aside that anti-semitism is socialism of fools and things of that nature.
Le_Wokisme (not polite)
you should always give a shit about nazis because they came for communists and trans people first you fucking bellend
Dirt_Owl (not polite)
Nah, fuck off. Jews are still targeted by actual anti-semites. The Trump admin are open Nazis saluting on stage. Right now they hate arabs more than Jews, but mark my words, If they ever succeed in their Muslim genocide, you bet the Jews are next on the block. That’s how fascism works. Conflating all Jews with Zionism is stupid and borderline anti-Semitic imo.
tocopherol (polite yet somewhat addresses your argument)
Israel exists in the name of Zionism, not Judaism. We should care about antisemitism because it’s a scapegoat used by fascists, many still push the idea that a Jewish cabal runs the world behind the scenes. If more fascists get power we could see more violence and dehumanizing rhetoric about Jewish people. I think it’s useful to push back against any sort of widespread bigotry, and there is still widespread bigotry against Jewish people.
Further, I don’t believe Jewish people are integrated into ‘whiteness’. Many could pass but as a group they are currently seen as useful allies to Christian Zionists and the western right, they will be thrown under the bus when the time comes. According to the prevailing western fascist doctrine they are still impure non-whites
imogen_underscore (unsure)
not sure about this one
So far you got only 2 unpolite and uninformed comments…
Glass half full or half empty is the question here. Hexbear is usually really nice and I didn’t expect my post to be received the way it was. I understand the original post was bad, but I wish is would’ve been given a bit of a chance. I understand the mods choice, but I feel it was done out of misunderstanding. I didn’t portray my views properly at all leading to people to think I was saying things I really didn’t mean to. I improved on it here and could’ve done better still as I find myself in the replies here. Don’t wanna drag you into a long argument, don’t feel obliged to respond
You already admitted your title sucked, but your title alone is worthy of a ban imo. Idk about permanent if you’re willing to to take some criticism, but writing off the rest of your post as going “I guess the title was a little inflammatory” tells me you’re more interested in justifying your pov.
It sucks in without the context I provided here. It was, as I said here, made in the context of liberal Zionist, regular Zionist and “pro-Palestinian” people unnecessarily centering anti-Semitism when it is, realistically, fringe
Can I ask you something here? It seems to be a sticking point for you, this idea of anti-semitism being fringe. If that impression is correct, why is it a sticking point for you and what do you feel is important about insisting on it? Because I can get not liking how zionists co-opt, but taking it a step further, to insisting in such a way that makes it sound like anti-semitism is a non-issue, seems to be what is the crux of the problem here.
My main argument here, that I failed to properly portray in the post on Hexbear and which I probably could’ve expanded on further here, is that anti-Semitism does not take the form of state repression. Anti-Semitism exists in the same sense that anti-white racism exists. There may be some who genuinely don’t like white people, though that does not translate in any meaningful way into the machinations of the state. There is no institutionalised anti-white sentiment, same applies to Jewish people. This is not me saying anti-Semitism doesn’t exist, it does. People do call Jews bad things, slurs, or otherwise. But racism, more generally, is not individual incidents of hate crimes, it is the wielding of state power to repress one group or another, a group which is made to be racially inferior.
I wouldn’t want it to be a sticking point myself. I am trying to, in some vain hope of being unbanned, explain myself properly. I would’ve liked if I was just made a punching bag in the posts comments, then moved on, but I was banned and now I feel the need to defend myself.
Anti-Semitism exists in the same sense that anti-white racism exists. There may be some who genuinely don’t like white people, though that does not translate in any meaningful way into the machinations of the state.
I see. I can see how you’d arrive at comparing them, but I think we should make clear here that whiteness is a distinctly “fake” thing. That the reason anti-white racism is not taken seriously isn’t just because there is a lack of a state oppressing white people, it’s also because whiteness derives from white supremacy as a construct. There is no whiteness without white supremacy. But there is Judaism without zionism.
We can also contrast on the fact that Jewish people have had historical periods where they faced mass discrimination enabled by a state and white people never have and by definition, can’t. People can be prejudiced against those who are considered white because of the harm that the institution of whiteness does and the people who act in its name, but there is no threat of a state deciding white people are a minority people to scapegoat. There is still the possibility of Jewish people being victimized in this way again.
This I think is an important distinction that may be part of the problem, if you land on the wrong side of it.
I want to add to my own point a little here, for my own closure of train of thought if nothing else:
That part of why the thing with white supremacy is so unique is because white supremacy is effectively derived from a particular state (or I guess probably multiple of them at this point in history) defining whiteness as a certain thing that exists and defining what constitutes whiteness, which can shift based on their whims over time. For a state to “oppress” white people, we end up going down this contradictory path, where such a state would somehow need to adopt the same views of what constitutes a white person as white-defining states (which would implicitly mean said state is agreeing that white people exist, as such, and are a superior group - so we’re already not off to a start that makes much sense for oppression) and then it would somehow need to discriminate and marginalize them really badly (but they’d also have many places to go in the world that would accept them as white and whiteness has no specific homeland or heritage, unless you count brutal colonization as a heritage, so this wouldn’t really mean much). Jewish people, on the other hand, could pretty easily find themselves in a discriminated place again, including from white supremacy (which is where it came from in the holocaust, no?). And zionists weaponize that insecurity of position by portraying israel as the solution (but it’s not and it’s just a thinly disguised settler-colonial project that is being funded by white supremacy).
what is the base for your analysis here? is the richest person in the world sieg heiling on a national stage not enough antisemitism for you?
I’m sorry I was not able to properly explain it to you, I’ll try to portray it better to you. I did not make it clear in my post on Hexbear and on here, so here is my more “developed” analysis:
I do not think anti-Semitism is present within the state. There is no analogue to the oppression of Black and Arab people’s around the world to be found here. Anti-Semitism exists within the individual, it does not in any meaningful way translate to state policy. Elon Musk is probably an anti-Semite, but his views haven’t been expressed through the use of state repression of Jewish communities. I drew an analogue to anti-white racism here, as in, like in this instance. You can say derogatory things about white men, whiteness, but extrapolating that to mean there is institutionalised repression of white people is false.
The primary issue here is in the broad-brushing and lack of care in the post (e.g. the title), which makes it easy to leave impressions of antisemitism. In your spoiler quote, you say things along the lines of, “if a state that exists in your name commits genocide, of course you will be hated”. While you are not explicitly saying so, the sentiment here has a rhetorical next step: “so antisemitism is valid and correct”. I’m not saying you believe this, but it would feel natural to have seen that written next by the flow of the rhetoric. The post is playing with being on the edge of antisemitic language and possibly crosses that border depending on how you interpret it. I don’t think that’s a very effective way of communicating in addition to the possibilities for causing harm.
Contrast to something like this: “Zionism is perhaps the greatest purveyor of antisemitism on the planet by engaging in ethnonationalist genocide and conflating everything they do with Judaism. In addition to the inherent antisemitism of associating race hate mass violence with Judaism, it inspires antisemitism among those who sympathize with the victims, as there has always been a real risk that those sympathizers take “Israel” at their word in conflating their project with Judaism. Even just adopting and then negating Zionist language can lead to problematic statements.”
Basically the same sentiments, but communicated in a way that is careful about how it is presented.
I would also disagree that Jewish people, including Ashkenazi Jewish people, are fully integrated into whiteness. They are partially integrated. Most can pass as white basically any time they want to by just not saying certain things. A lot of (most?) white people are going to treat them as white, as will others. But there is still a reactionary group that others Jewish people, follows and maintains antisemitic mythologies, and participates to one degree or another in ensuring there is always a bit of a threat in the background. In the most reactionary circles this does lead to overy antisemitic actions and violence, but the soft reactionaries and edgelords help to pipeline them. There is a dual character of whiteness and Jewishness for Ashkenazi Jews in white supremacist societies and which is dominant various regionally and on an individual basis. So on one hand most Jewish people in the US face very little discrimination due to being mostly assimilated into whiteness. On the other hand, there is still antisemitic violence and rumbles of more if reactionaries become more powerful and numerous and.
I would agree that antisemitism is not as common or extreme of an issue as islamophobia or anti-blackness and that Zionist organizations lie about what constitutes antisemitism, thus diluting it. But your thoughts that overstate Jewish assimilation into white supremacy may be a case of reacting to and negating Zionist framings too simply and on their terms. Zionist organizations call every single expression of sympathy for Palestinians antisemitic. Those organizations are lying in support of an active genocidal ethnonationalist project. But they also list real cases of antisemitism that should not be dismissed.
Re: moderation, well it’s a friendly socialist instance so I don’t want to exactly start a fight about it, but I would say they are quick to ban and bad at conflict resolution and explanations. They tend to describe this in terms of protecting their members, but I think it is mostly a consequence of having basically zero irl organizing experience and therefore making the mistakes of young organizers. Having no interest in listening to or guiding disagreement and being quick to drop a hammer is one of those mistakes. Communists grow out of this if they are self-critical after joining and leaving (or watching implode) a few organizations. At the same time, you should consider that your post was fairly flippant, inconsiderate, and flirted with antisemitism, so I wouldn’t say they made a greater error.
I’m going to link “Are Israelis Jews?” and say that the idea that “Jewish people […] have been fully integrated into ‘whiteness’” is only really possible if you’re thinking of Jews as an abstract, hypothetical, monolithic group, and thinking of whiteness as an absolute and unnuanced quality. That’s not really a systemic analysis, is it? That is, as another commenter says, really just saying a bunch of BS pulled from thin air — and I will concur that you should accept the ban and do some self crit.
What are they supposed to self crit about though? Bad analysis? From what I’ve read on this so far, it comes across like substituting talking things through instructively with a permaban. If it is the case that thorough attempts were made to talk things through and they doubled down, or that they were being hostile toward others and not taking hints to back down, then that seems more fair to do a ban. But in general, expecting someone to go off in their corner and work things out is not a solution to ignorance. I would love for it to be that easy, but it takes sometimes painful, patient, and prolonged effort instead. None of us has the “correct” take all of the time. Hell, maybe I’m jumping to conclusions too quickly myself. But it would be kind of absurd if I were to be banned from somewhere for saying this, wouldn’t it?
I know there’s a fine line sometimes where it’s important not to be permissive of BS and draw lines, but at the same time, sometimes you can get far just trying to connect on the spirit of what someone means while disagreeing with the content. For example, when I read the original post they made, the tone sounds abrasive and hasty to me, but the general sentiment of being tired of zionists calling upon anti-semitism and playing up being victims is nothing new. People can get tired of pre-empting every statement with a big thing about the difference between zionism and Judaism, and trying to word it all just right so nobody gets the wrong idea, like Jewish people are the main characters of world oppression, while Palestinian children are being slaughtered en masse. And it’s not like it’s just internet posting struggling with this kind of thing, I remember Gabor Maté mentioning something in passing along similar lines when he came on a podcast his son co-hosts. How, if I remember right (hopefully I am not misrepresenting him), he was tired of dealing with the centering of generational trauma and how that related to zionism. I see what appears like an echo of the same theme in OP’s post. I do think OP’s original post is being somewhat dismissive of how Jewish people can and do still suffer, but any frustration behind it is understandable.
Jewish people are not made of porcelain. We should do what we can to combat prejudice and discrimination against them, but they can handle a bad take now and then. And someone pointing out, albeit harshly, that there’s a clear source of continuing prejudice against them, is not itself the problem; it’s the zionist state that is the source of that problem.
People on the Internet are oftentimes able to find information about a topic without needing to make a post about it, and people on the Internet are further able to stop for a moment and reflect on how they come across to others before they post. When someone then posts a “question” with a post body that’s just a very abrasive and confident ramble, about a topic which could easily be searched, and that person decidedly should know better, then it doesn’t really come across as a genuine question — it rather comes across as someone demanding their bad analysis be heard, someone speaking without investigation, someone with an irrational sense of pride, someone who isn’t actually interested in learning.
Jews are not made of porcelain, no, nor am I, nor are most people. But I doubt the “now and then” of bad antisemitism takes is nearly as infrequent as you might believe it to be, and you might also be misunderstanding who aside from Jews themselves might be disturbed by such nonsense. Responding to people being confidently incorrect in any case takes emotional labor, and I’m not going to charitably interpret the “frustration” of a white man from one of the most reactionary countries in Europe, who self-reports as largely only engaging in activism through arguing with strangers on the Internet, just because he calls himself a Marxist-Leninist.
Jews are certainly not the main characters of world oppression, and Zionists’ crying wolf about antisemitism is frustrating, but recognizing that anti-Zionism is a pursuit of both Palestinian and Diaspora Jewish liberation doesn’t actually require buying into the narrative that Jews are somehow a special and unique people, or that condemning a genocide requires Jews’ express permission. It doesn’t even require watching one’s wording. Jewish anti-Zionism is in fact a political tradition that should inspire all diasporic peoples and all “traitors to settlerdom”.
about a topic which could easily be searched
Most of the positions we have on places like these are not easily searched. In fact, searching independently can easily lead you to reactionary information. Have you forgotten how fringe we tend to be in the English-speaking internet? Why we ended up on a place like lemmy in the first place?
Responding to people being confidently incorrect in any case takes emotional labor
It takes time and energy, “emotional labor” is a nonsense term here and this kind of excuse-making is a bad example to set for people who want to make a difference in liberation.
I’m not going to charitably interpret the “frustration” of a white man from one of the most reactionary countries in Europe, who self-reports as largely only engaging in activism through arguing with strangers on the Internet, just because he calls himself a Marxist-Leninist.
So let me get this straight. You are invested enough to have taken the time to personally assess who this person is, where they are from, their gender, whiteness, and their history of what they are doing with their life, all of which you have apparently acquired over the internet, which on a platform like lemmy is no easy thing to do unless they put all of them in an easy summary (unlikely). But taking the time to discuss the issue is too much? Again, it just sounds like excuses.
It doesn’t even require watching one’s wording.
It clearly does though, as evidenced by how OP’s take is being taken to task, and has acquired a permanent ban elsewhere. The whole thing is frankly embarrassing, as is this insistence of an easily-made accurate assessment of bad faith and therefore a justification of reactive dismissal.
Efforts toward liberation are fucking hard sometimes. They shouldn’t have to be, but they are. And I’m not going to sit here and kowtow to this attitude that says “not my problem, go in your corner alone and figure it out.” We can do better. You don’t have to differently personally, of course, we are not in an org or anything like that and not on a basis of putting each other in check, but as a whole, it’s a bad example to set and so I’m going to push back against such an attitude. It’s not the first time I’ve seen it and when I was earlier on in learning about all this stuff, I kinda just ignored it, figuring I didn’t know enough to speak on it.
But now I feel confident in saying that it is a counter-revolutionary attitude when it is defended as a normal thing to do. When it is simply a passing thing, I expect it is born of frustration from dealing with sealioning, concern trolls, and other forms of deceptive time-wasting. But as a whole position to take on and defend, it is little more than indulgent individualist thinking. People cannot go off and figure out how to be the proper revolutionary alone and then come back, and be ready to be heard. That’s nonsense. They will learn many of the wrong things and have no idea what to do when they actually engage. It is exactly the encouraging of this individualism that causes more bad takes, not less.
Most of the positions we have on places like these are not easily searched. In fact, searching independently can easily lead you to reactionary information. Have you forgotten how fringe we tend to be in the English-speaking internet? Why we ended up on a place like lemmy in the first place?
We have not one but two leftist, anti-Zionist communities for Jewish issues in our federation, one on Hexbear (Judaism) and one on Lemmygrad (Jewish Quarter). Both of these communities are loaded with discussions, articles, and other resources. So it’s not nearly as hard to find good information independently as you might think. Hell, I’m not even opposed to people asking strange, silly or even offensive questions, I’ve done so on Askchapo many times without any issue — as long as someone can show that they’ve made an effort to understand on their own as well, then I think that’s the most important thing. The effort should be, put simply, reciprocal, the respect should be mutual. This is how we avoid wasting people’s time and energy, yes, their emotional labor.
You are invested enough to have taken the time to personally assess who this person is, where they are from, their gender, whiteness, and their history of what they are doing with their life, all of which you have apparently acquired over the internet, which on a platform like lemmy is no easy thing to do unless they put all of them in an easy summary (unlikely)
I learned he was white by checking his modlog on Hexbear to see if this was the first time he’d gotten a post or comment removed — turns out he actually has had over the past 9 months a total of 20 (technically 22) posts or comments removed prior to the one that got him banned, including one comment removed four months ago in which he said, “Nah dude. He has a white exterior, but that doesn’t make him white automatically. For example, I’m white on the exterior but my soul is Chinese. It’s the inside that matters” (removal reason: “Inappropriate”)
I learned he was a man by checking his pronouns, which are in his bio — it is perhaps bad form to equate he/him pronouns with being a man, alas I did so anyways, also bearing in mind that his profile picture is a man, and I was evidently correct.
And I knew from before that he’s from Estonia and that he’s not very active in organizing, because I saw the post he made about the lack of opportunities to organize in Estonia in my feed one week ago, and remembered it. He’s a prolific user with a memorable name and picture. People are going to remember stuff he’s said about himself.
It is in any case easy enough for me to figure from his writings that he does not get regularly accused of being a succubus agent of the Jewish conspiracy to emasculate White Christian Men on the basis of his gender identity; that he has in fact probably never actually met a single Jew in his life, and has probably internalized a number of harmful attitudes in his society about the “Hypothetical Jew” that he pictures in his mind’s eye, if Estonia’s (lack of) reckoning with its antisemitic history is anything like Norway’s; and he evidently feels qualified to make confidently incorrect sweeping statements about who is and isn’t harmed by racism in a way that only white people really tend to do.
I always try to be open to being proven wrong about my assumptions about people, but evidently I was on the money this time. Those who are closer to institutional power time and time again also tend to be the leftists with the worst takes and the worst attitudes.
To be clear though, I’m also “broadly white”, I’m also from a reactionary European country with a minuscule Jewish population that I’ve never personally met to my knowledge, and I’m also not super involved in organized advocacy (I am part of an org but I’ve only been to like 4 meetings in a year). So I’m not trying to shame borschtisgarbo for any of these things, in fact I welcome people to look at me with suspicion, too. And I know that borschtisgarbo is trying to get better organized and I wish him luck in that, but getting upset about being personally cried as antisemitism’s wolf over arguing with Internet strangers anonymously about Palestine, is not the same as tiring from having to defend a whole organization from baseless accusations from bourgeois media, or actually being put in danger by Zionist lunatics.
It clearly does though, as evidenced by how OP’s take is being taken to task, and has acquired a permanent ban elsewhere.
But he doesn’t believe that Diaspora Jewish liberation is the same struggle as Palestinian liberation, though!! If he did he would already care about antisemitism!! The fact that he doesn’t care about antisemitism is what caused this issue!!
I expect it is born of frustration from dealing with sealioning, concern trolls, and other forms of deceptive time-wasting.
It is.
Thanks for taking the time to explain further. The prior history seems to me like a very important point here. I was operating under the impression that the ban had been out of nowhere, simply because of what he posted. If he is a repeat offender on hexhear’s rules, that is much more understandable. To be honest, we might have avoided this whole back and forth if that had been pointed out in your original post in the thread; I don’t mean that as any kind of blame, simply that had I known, I might have responded differently. The way it was worded originally, it was coming across to me like the offense was essentially having a bad take in a bad tone one time and that this was worthy of a permaban and a need to go reflect in the corner.
I can respond in more detail to what you’ve said if there are any points you’d especially like addressed. For the moment, nothing else jumps out at me as something I feel a need to comment on.
Welp, glad that this has been resolved in a comradely manner then, sorry for getting a bit heated.
Likewise, I don’t know if it came through in the text, but I got kind of intense myself at points. I’m glad we could reach something of an understanding.
What is the point of an internet forum, one named @askchapo, if not to discuss things? My post was, as I’ve already mentioned in another reply here, not much if a question. Though still I put it in @askchapo. Why? Because I felt I wanted to share my views, talk about them. I know my post was not the best, to say the least. It was because I was expecting to be able to discuss it openly and further develop them. A forum named @askchapo should allow you, through conversation, to correct your views rather than banning you
Again, I do not want to be callous, but consider my analogy again. Would you not find it off-putting if, during the 1940s, you heard people center the conversation on whether or not anti-German sentiment was too wide spread? You would not be an anti-German xenophobe for intervening, to say so is ridiculous.
Also, I find it very disingenuous of you to try and psycho analyse me here. It has nothing to do with what I am saying here, and comes off wrong. Would you enjoy me going through your posts, to try and find something I can use against you? It wouldn’t be very nice, I am sure you agree.
If you don’t want people to factor in information you’ve previously shared about yourself when interacting with or talking about you, then don’t share that information. You are in any case acting like you’re entitled to other people’s time and energy over something you could easily investigate on your own any time you want. I will not reply again.
Also, as much as I don’t want to indulge in your attempt to make this some interpersonal drama, I feel like I need to defend myself here. The post you referenced as evidence for me not doing real life activism was literally me asking for help in finding outlets for activism. There are no real organisations here, besides the one pro-Pal org. I’ve been to one of their meetings, though they mostly do film screenings and such, not protests or anything like that. They occasionally do, just I haven’t know of them for that long to have gone to them earlier. I do not have the capacity to start a communist party all on my own, that was the whole point of the post. I was looking for answers on how to get to the point at which I could do that, or participate in something like that. I was looking for ways to build contacts and such You clearly extrapolated a lot without really reading through the post(s).
Sorry, but searching through a person’s posts to smear them isn’t a nice thing to do. What you pointed out was completely irrelevant to the topic of the post. I am not entitled to people’s time, but a forum specifically advertised as a place to discuss things should allow you to talk about things without being banned. What is the point of an @askchapo forum if you can’t ask things?
The tone of your post was definitely off but hexbear does have some serious moderation issues. They could have just as easily taken the post down and DMed you to ask you to maybe write it in a less acuatory and confrontational way.
Just take the ban. You are in good company.
You are conflating Judaism and Zionism though. You were banned because you were saying bullshit pulled from thin air. Do some self crit
The fact that a majority of Jewish people still support the modern Holocaust is not “bullshit pulled from thin air”. Nothing I said was counter factual.
Again, I struggle to understand which exact part is conflating Judaism and Zionism. You’d do well to point out which part is problematic here. I’m sure I am repeating myself, but I really want to get it across, I did not expect to get banned for a poorly formatted post. There should’ve been some form of discussion, as the name @askchapo implies there will be.
How am I supposed to do self crit if I am not even allowed to hear counter arguments, respond to them, and generally just discuss my views?
You’d do well to point out which part is problematic here
you already know the problematic parts. to reply to your most egregious one: just because zionists exist doesnt mean jewish people arent oppressed all of a sudden.
here should’ve been some form of discussion, as the name @askchapo implies there will be.
nobody owes you a discussion. get over yourself
Get over yourself
I have not said anything hostile about anyone here, not you, not anyone.To belittle me instead of responding in a meaningful way, handwaving at some abstract anti-Semitic aura you sensed, is not gonna make me understand what I did wrong, why I deserved a ban.
I’ve explained it already, but @askchapo is specifically made to discuss things. Not to mention the entire idea of an internet forum, generally, is to discuss things! So it is not ridiculous to expect to be allowed to discuss things, instead of just being banned with less than a sentence of reasoning.
yeah i wont respond anymore to your ‘market place of ideas’ excuses
I’m sorry for bothering you and others on Hexbear and lg. I hoped I would be able to have a conversation with the people there, I very much should’ve not posted that, it betrayed my views in the sense that it sucked at getting any of them across and created a lot of misunderstanding. No one got what I said, I tried to improve upon it here. I just wanted to defend myself and be able to get to an understanding, I am sorry if I failed on that. I see you’re being rather hostile and I just want you to know sorry I am asshole to you here. You do not need to respond anymore. I wouldn’t be keen on arguing with you all if I would’ve been turned into a punching bag for a day, then moved on.
It’s called @askchapo. If discussion is not something that is wished there, they should rename it to something else. Someone might reasonably misunderstand, ask the wrong question, then get banned and not learn anything.
Jewish people are not oppressed, that is a fact. Xenophobia exists, yes. Institutionalised anti-Semitism does not exist. If your view of oppression is insults that do not translate into state repression, then white people are also oppressed.
I understand your point of view, and I’ve made similar arguments before (not all of them though LOL)
I remember reading (but can’t find) a poll showing that ~85% of Jewish people in Europe support “israel” even when 60% of them said that they condemn / were embarrassed in what “israel” was doing.
I’ve had the same discussions with my partner who is Jewish (and I’m Palestinian, hah!). Yes, a lot of reported “antisemitism” is just anti-zionism. Yes, antisemitism does not occur as much as other forms of hate (Islamophobia, racism against blacks, asians, latinos, etc), but I wouldn’t go as far as saying that antisemitism isn’t an issue.
Yes you could even say that Jewish people did manage to integrate well into white society, but that really only applies to Ashkenazis. But I wouldn’t say that privilege is impossible to revoke. The most antisemitic people support israel because they can send their jewish populations there when the time comes. They are perfectly fine working with jewish people when it comes to establishing and protecting a state, but I would disagree that they are integrated at all.
There is no integration with these racists. They focus on oppressing the easiest-to-oppress class. Nazi Germany did it with Gays, Romanis, Slavs, Jewish, the disabled. Each of these groups were minority groups, the same way America has oppressed indigenous populations, blacks, latinos, gays, japanese, and muslims / arabs.
The oppression will never end, but they will go up the “caste”, so to speak. They will oppress the “weakest” minority before moving on to the next, and they don’t have to be weak, they just have to be able to convince the rest of their followers and centrists that this minority group deserves to be put into internment camps / genocided / deported.
Right now we have Muslims, Latinos, Haitians, and the LGBTQ being targeted by this administration. But if the oppression continues, and they get to be able to round us all up or deport us to CECOT, the job isn’t done there.
Next they’ll find another population to oppress, Blacks, Asians, Jewish people. After that they’ll target anyone who isn’t a protestant or other characteristic that they decide makes one less “pure” than they are.
The oppression won’t ever really end; Jewish people may seem to be safer than Latinos, Gays, and Muslims currently, but they will not have this privilege forever if the fascists get their way.
You can also argue that “israel” has corrupted many Jewish minds in America. My partner’s father is old as shit and he even said himself that after the establishment of “israel” his Hebrew school began to split their focus on religion AND “israel”.
While I believe it is abhorrent for anyone to support “israel” after witnessing the horrors they’ve committed, I do think it would be more productive to discuss intersectionality with a Jewish person than it is to scream at them for supporting the settler-colony.
I will also give my own (unwanted) anecdotal evidence and say I have met more anti-zionist Jewish people than I have zionist Jewish people. Maybe it’s who I hang around, but even random interactions with strangers who are Jewish that have shown solidarity.
Please let me know if you want to discuss more!
About most Jews being Zionists, I don’t know why they threw a fit over that. That’s a factual statement, most Jews ARE Zionists. I mean, almost half of all Jews globally live in the settler project.
That shouldn’t make anyone reconsider their anti-zionist stance, because genocide, ethnostates, fascism, and colonialism don’t magically become better bc it’s not white supremacy flavored. To me, I accept that most Jews are Zionists. That’s not going to make me support killing babies and blocking aid, bc I don’t care what most Jews think. If something is wrong, it’s wrong no matter the race.
This is why people keep getting called anti-Semitic, they’re banking on you caring that you’re going against the wishes of a majority of Jews which makes you (in their eyes) an anti-semite. If you don’t care and tell them “no matter the race genocide is wrong” they’ll learn to use another argument. Don’t budge, don’t let them use their Jewishness (or someone else’s) as a bludgeon against your values.
Unironically being concerned with being called an anti-semite will only associate Zionism with Judaism/Jewishness. That’s when actual anti-Semitism starts to rise. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the take that isntrael controls America (and not the other way around) across countless social media sites. Whenever you correct them, they bring up AIPAC, they bring up how people can get deported for bigotry* against Jews but not any other race, the various wars & operations in SWANA for isntrael, etc.
They’re drawing horrible conclusions from actual facts, the days of “Jewish cabals are secretly ruling the US illuminati style!!1!” are gone, now they bring up things that are actually happening or have actually happened.
I think they overreacted, that place is stupidly toxic and doesn’t want to call out/ is very uncomfortable with calling out the mistakes that marginalized people can make. I think you should take the ban as a blessing, there’s nothing to go back to except death threats and mods that want to ignore the user base.
*Bigotry here is any criticism against isntrael. They actually do not care about conspiracy theories and lies against Jews. They have no intention to protect Jews and Jewishness outside of isntrael support.
I think they overreacted, that place is stupidly toxic
Pot calling the kettle black…
Yeah, we don’t lose our entire instance over abject moderation failures or have cult of personality mods that hand out death threats… Not really. Try again.
What are you referring to with “cult of personality mods that hand out death threats”?
Edit: No, seriously, there’s clearly a history here and I don’t want to be kept in the dark.
One of the mods before being removed/stepping down (don’t remember name) was gifting out death-threats to a user. There is two mods off the top of my head I can think of that has cult of personalities around them. I believe one of them has been removed or kept as a mod.
At the same time, they are a friendly instance. I’m not here to start drama with them. When brought into comparison though, I’m gonna be honest.
I see. So the first issue isn’t really an active problem anymore since that mod is presumably long gone now, and then the other issue… Well, I can’t really think of any mods or admins with “cults of personalities” around them, or at least I don’t notice such a thing. I do think that people on Hexbear are sometimes too lenient on the mods and admins when they do poorly, “because they’re volunteers”, though — the opposite of being too harsh on a team of volunteers is of course also bad, but many people in any case aren’t at the sort of “golden mean” for relating to the site staff, and I think this is a real issue.
On Lemmygrad, the problem I identify with its culture is really what I’ve heard people call “debate pervertry” — it feels like because Lemmygrad generally takes itself more seriously and is more hesitant to “slap people’s wrists”, that there’s just less of a leveling mechanism compared to Hexbear. People aren’t “insulting the meat” as much here so to speak. So this sometimes ends up enabling, put simply, “sophistry” from Lemmygrad users, that I find very grating and unpleasant. So this is what I mean when I say that Lemmygrad has a toxic culture, but maybe it’s less toxicity per se and more that online cultures are sort of self-selecting, so Lemmygrad probably feels much less toxic if it’s the sort of culture you thrive in, whereas Hexbear is the sort of culture that I thrive in and so that’s my main instance that feels much less toxic to me.
“Insulting the meat” is new to me. That’s a fun one to add to the lexicon.
I think it’s probably kind of hard to have an online leftist space without some kind of “toxicity”. I like your comment about culture - I think that’s fundamental. I really like hexbear, but there’s some bits that give me pause. And I like the grad, but there’s bits that I can understand other people not liking!
I don’t know if anybody else really uses that phrase “insulting the meat”, I was just referencing a !Kung practice which is one of the most often cited examples of a leveling mechanism in a culture.
But yeah, in any case, looks like we’ve reached agreement here.
I’m sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this. I was not able to respond in depth on Hexbear, for obvious reasons, so I thought this was the next best place.
You can feel free to push back on anything I said.
I think that we all hand out permanent bans too easily. It makes sense for obvious ragebait accounts and spambots, but for users who are socially awkward or in need of reeducation, a permanent ban is just too long. That is a measure much better suited for lost causes. I can ask @[email protected] to consider reducing your ban (maybe to a week or something), but I can’t promise anything.
I agree that something like the Shoah is extremely unlikely to befall Jewish people again, and seeing so many false alarms over antisemitism would make anybody feel cynical. I take antisemitism seriously and even I have to say that they’re wearing down my morale. It’s like attending a hotline but receiving dozens of calls everyday from little kids over trivial problems.
That being said, some Jews (especially the Charedim) face harassment from individuals, and occasionally the violence becomes lethal. Nearly seven years ago a neofascist stabbed Blaze Bernstein to death, and of course there was the Tree of Life Synagogue shooting later that same year. I know that those aren’t the most recent examples, but it is plausible that the ordinary incidents usually go unreported because the victims don’t expect the authorities to do anything.
Personally, though, I think that the focus on antisemitism is too narrow. Jewish people have plenty of problems, and some will tell you that antisemitism is not even in the top five. They have varying responses depending on where they live: pollution, inaccessible healthcare, want of transportation, want of worker’s rights, or even settler-colonialism (it affects one Puerto Rican Jew whom I know), to name only a few examples. Treating antisemitism as Jews’ only problem is inaccurate and uncreative.
anti-Semitism is real and it is rising, narratives that isolate the actions of the Zionist entity from the US are probably the biggest fuel atm. It’s important for anti-zionists to always call the genocide as the US backed and sanctioned genocide.
Red hats/fascists don’t care about human rights, as quickly as they picked up the rhetoric that “Israel has a right to defend itself” they’ll drop it and use Israel (and all Jews) as the scapegoat for US/western failure.
That’s why narratives that the entity controls the US are extremely harmful to Jews as a whole, zionist or not.
One other thing I wanted mention: I don’t care that most Jews are Zionists, it says nothing of Judaism or Jewishness as a whole. It’s senile to use ~100 year old ideology to describe the past, present, and future of Jewishness. As quickly as Zionism became popular, it will disposed by Jews in the future.
My thought process: every group of people has stupid/horrible beliefs (look up how many Muslims don’t want secularism, or how many whites consistently practice white supremacy), you don’t define a group of people by an ideology you define individuals to an ideology.
The vast majority of white people in the US did not want to abolish segregation, look where they are now. People are dynamic and generations change.
That’s why I don’t hold it against Jews (or anyone for that matter) that believe in dumb/bigoted ideas. EVERY group of people has done that, no one is unique.
I don’t have much of a problem with the rest of your post, but this part tickles me the wrong way. I don’t know if you worded it wrong, or something. But it comes off as genocide apologia.
That’s why I don’t hold it against Jews (or anyone for that matter) that believe in dumb/bigoted ideas. EVERY group of people has done that, no one is unique.
That’s the thing, if you support a genocide, you should very much have it held against you. It’s not okay to be a Zionist. It’s not a matter of “shit happens”, like you’ve made it out to be here. Just because, apparently, every other group has perpetrated a Holocaust, doesn’t make it okay.
I worded it wrong, what I mean is that a majority of Jews being Zionists now is not something to hold against the entire group for the rest of their history. It’s horrible, but people can change. The next generations of Jews will be more and more against Zionism.
What I’m getting at is: it’s a heinous fuck up but it’s not a permanent fuck up. People change for the better. We should continue to call it out for the disgusting hatred it is, and anyone (jew or not) that is a Zionist is a horrible person.
They have dunk culture when it comes to people a lot and you barely have time to respond; my own comments were one or two sentences long sometimes because 1) I was going through a crisis IRL and didn’t always have the time to respond effectively; and 2) they… sometimes made long points but didn’t always have much substance to them; it was basically “CPUSA is revisionist.” “I don’t think anyone in CPUSA is revisionist or believes in such” and then “You’re not giving me any reasons to believe that they aren’t revisionst” and I’m thinking to myself “What the fuck am I supposed to be RESPONDING to?” (Not everyone did this, and some replies were more thoughtful or well-put, and gave me more to work with, but other people just wasted time, looking back, especially during an IRL crisis, and the “he said, she said” fiasco didn’t help), and 3) the replies or comments were sometimes very rude and would spawn off into something else when I tried to call them out on their ad hominems, sometimes, I would mention one point… before someone jumped in and spawned that one sentence into something different, and usually it was rude and didn’t have anything to do with the original point. For example, someone blamed my problems on me being Autistic and justified it with saying “I’m Autistic as well” and I’m thinking to myself “Then you know that in the Autistic community, we say 'If you’ve met an Autistic person, you’ve met an Autistic person.” I do want to add that they were NOT doing it in good faith and were very rude about it too. It’s very rude to just mention that and in such a curt fashion, no matter who you are.
There were a lot of people that, for example, were anti-Autistic or had poor behavior toward Autistic people, such as that mother who made her 3 year old son go to ABA and justified it and… wasn’t reprimanded, especially not banned. She seemed to be quite abusive, but eh, nobody did a thing.
Overall, I could’ve handled things better, but honestly, me mentioning something like “I like CPUSA” before it spawned off into a whole argument while I was dealing with abuse and trauma IRL was really uncalled for.
I’m glad that I was banned, I guess, looking back.
I think my problem is that I catastrophize (such as when I called the other person the other day a PatSoc before thinking about it some more and realizing that they definitely were no PatSoc or MAGA com, bwahahahahaha 😂) a lot and would sometimes, especially then, freak out about something due to my frayed nerves, but honestly, it was a very un-curious and non-understanding community, largely.
And that’s my personal experience.
I understand that people may attack you once again and you’re sort-of risking your peace of mind for the OP above (since people may, and, I think, will likely come and attack you here, either from Hexbear or even, maybe, from Lemmygrad; not judging, but it’s just a prediction), but I’ll try to have your back, comrade.
I hope you can appeal the ban, btw, and get back in, if you really want to.
That last comment that you posted in spoilers is wild to me.
It is, I know. I made the post in a rush, I wasn’t able to properly convey my views. I wasn’t expecting to be at risk of being banned for what I was saying, so I didn’t at all try to format it properly. It was more of a rant than anything. The main issue I have is that I wish I was given a chance to properly try to convey how I was annoyed at the centering of anti-Semitism and it’s over-exaggerated presence in society. I should’ve been more careful in my wording as it Is obviously a sensitive subject considering recent history, but I wish I was given a chance to actually talk about it. It’s the reason I posted it on @askchapo even though it really wasn’t a question, I wanted to discuss it
I still think that anti-Semitism isn’t “over-exaggerated.” For example, many AI answers are indeed anti-Semitic and Holocaust denialist, at least a growing subsection of it. History videos made by AI are increasingly Holocaust denialist.
In addition, I don’t think that you’re anti-Semitic anymore… but you are a bit misinformed.
They should’ve been patient and a bit more understanding, but honestly, knowing Hexbear, they shot first and asked questions later.
Still, what you said was misinformed.
One more comment for now (as I’m making too many comments all in one go rather than just one):
I just want to say that while I prefer Lemmygrad, and really like this place, and even all the people within it, I think Hexbear has its perks and stuff to learn from; it’s definitely a boisterous and active community, but, from my own personal experience, is very toxic, at times, when certain topic, at least, are broached. And, additionally, I myself have had friends there and got along with a lot of people, and, hell, I wouldn’t mind returning, but it’s just too argumentative and I’ve also noticed strands of, err, anti-Semitic thinking.
Hard to explain, but seeing it arise, especially in that last screenshot within the spoiler tag you highlighted, is rather much, and goes beyond what I suspected.
Okay, done. I’ve got to be somewhere for maybe a few hours; I’ll be back here and there, but I don’t mean to dominate the comments section! So I’ll stop for now until more people jump in.
G’day!
I don’t get how what I said is anti-Semitic. I argue that anti-Semitism is not prominent in society, Jewish people are not at threat of being lynched. The constant need to explain that you’re not an anti-Semite is needless. You wouldn’t need to couch anti-Nazi sentiment in the 40s with listing off a bunch of reasons why you aren’t anti-German. It’s unnecessary and plays into Jewish exceptionalism and Zionism at large.
You’re right. I take that back. But anti-Semitism is very much a force in society and they are at threat of being lynched or attacked and have.
I agree that many Jews are Zionist but many are not.
I’m confused your simultaneously defending the user and calling their post (“the last screenshot within the spoiler tag”) anti-semitic? Or am I missing something?
I think they are expressing their discomfort with hexbear while also acknowledging that what OP said is extreme – these two sentiment can co-exist.
I do disagree with the user on certain points, tbh, so yes, you have it correct.
Oh, I must have misread the last part! My apologies! It makes more sense. I misread it as something else, given the context, but now it makes more sense and means the complete opposite. Again, I’m quite sorry.
Yes, I stand by the user above as I mentioned before!
Oh, never mind, I read it correctly.
