Camarada Forte

Yes and no. Their views on Cuba are contradictory and very individual based. It’s one thing that shows how different strains of “anti-revisionism” is nothing but subjective and silly idealist stuff

In my opinion, not in itself…

I consider praxis a conscious direct action towards an objective, mediated by theory and practice in constant reformulation.

What is the main objective in arguing with liberals? Are you using any method to do it? If not, do you develop it?

Most of the times, you may not convince them, but you are letting lurkers formulate different opinions. In terms of ideological struggle, yes, can be a form of praxis, albeit in a primtive, isolated form. A superior form of online praxis could be organized “arguing”, or ideological struggle in several different places of the internet.

Imagine using our personal or fake accounts in several different online spaces and bourgeois social media to collective respond and criticize ideologues, interact with each other comments, like them and exploit the algorithm to make our comments rank higher and higher. (Nothing prevents anyone from creating a community in Lemmygrad for that end, by the way 😎)

This is why organized action is always the superior form of praxis. But even this ideological struggle is not in itself revolutionary praxis. Revolutionary praxis can only be done through organization, both online and personally, with a political line established through incessant internal criticism. It will require organic woking class leaderships, Marxist theorists, military strategists, weapons and well defined tactics and strategy

Very nice, I had similar impressions because of this too. I think it’s kinda a bit of bourgeois ideology in each of us, because we try to convince ourselves to be “more productive” even in our leisure time

In my country, the options are becoming “fascist” vs “not so fascist” lol

As soon as someone says “there is nothing that I can do about it”, it already shows they are not fully class conscious

I don’t like the message of the meme, it’s like saying that capitalism will destroy itself alone. It won’t. It will require a conscious organization heading in that direction. Just like feudalism didn’t end on its own, it required a conscious liberal revolution to overthrow it.

Thank you for your insights, comrade. It’s clear Hasina is not approved by the West, but the revolt didn’t come from nowhere. Her government brought that to herself.

We have a small stub on ProleWiki here: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1931–1933

FBI? Really?

damn bro

Who uses conservapedia as if it was a reliable source

No, because Marxism is not only Marx and Engels. Marxism was first developed by them, but was also developed by many other non-European peoples, and just to name a few, Maurice Bishop, Thomas Sankara, Amilcar Cabral, Che Guevara, Raul and Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh, Luis Carlos Prestes, Clovis Moura, Ruy Mauro Marini, Vânia Bambirra, Theotônio do Santos, Carlos Marighella, all of them non-European Marxists.

So no, Marxism is not euro-centric.

Revolutionary class consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the proletariat that not every working class has. If a working class has no consciousness and no revolutionary potential, then it is not a proper proletariat even if it performs wage labor.

As I understand, the proletariat is not only a wage-slave but also a producer of commodities. In a footnote on the first volume of Capital, Marx writes:

Our “prolétarian” is economically none other than the wage labourer, who produces and increases capital, and is thrown out on the streets, as soon as he is superfluous for the needs of aggrandisement of “Monsieur capital,” as Pecqueur calls this person.

I cannot confirm that every time Marx refers to the proletariat he means this. But this definition is extremely important. In the whole book of Capital, Marx is analyzing how value is produced, and how it is extracted by the bourgeoisie to turn into profit.

Under this definition of proletariat, the revolutionary potential of this class becomes more clear: they are the producers of everything that is consumed, even by the bourgeoisie, therefore, they are in a better position to bargain, protest and organize a general strike which is the ultimate weapon of the working class.

The US has proletarians, irrespective of the color of the skin. But the bulk of everything that is consumed by US citizens is actually produced by the proletarians in the Global South.

This is what detractors say but it is never substantiated as a criticism. By what natural law of capital is it so ubiquitous that a revolutionary proletarian class must exist among colonizers?

Where did this “revolutionary” come from? You are putting words in my comments where it does not exist. Interesting how you complain about strawmen and begin your comment with one. I am not a “detractor” of J. Sakai’s work, I mentioned several times that there’s value in it, but a critical reading is definitely essential. So that I can “substantiate” my criticism, here is an excerpt from the very first chapter :

When we point out that Amerika was the most completely bourgeois nation in world history, we mean a four-fold reality: 1. Amerika had no feudal or communal past, but was constructed from the ground up according to the nightmare vision of the bourgeoisie. 2. Amerika began its national life as an oppressor nation, as a colonizer of oppressed peoples. 3. Amerika not only has a capitalist ruling class, but all classes and strata of Euro-Amerikans are bourgeoisified, with a preoccupation for petty privileges and property ownership the normal guiding star of the white masses. 4. Amerika is so decadent that it has no proletariat of its own, but must exist parasitically on the colonial proletariat of oppressed nations and national minorities.

“most completely bourgeois nation”, “bourgeoisified”, “Amerika (…) has no proletariat of its own”. Sakai uses Marxist terms, but how they are used are completely meaningless. What “bourgeoisify” means? How come Amerika has no proletariat of its own? The country is still an industrial powerhouse, it’s a producer of commodities as well, therefore it has proletarians producing these commodities. Even slaves to that point, which consists of 60% of the prison population which are obliged to work for several corporations of different economic sectors.

I am making a reasonable critique of this work from a Marxist standpoint. If you can only see “strawmen” and “white fragility”, I’m sorry, you are possibly projecting a white fragility or white guilt onto others, because I’m not even white by your standards. For all intents and purposes, I am disgusted by white people in United States. I’ve seen the shit white women (karens) in this awful country do, it’s frankly terrifying. But I am a Marxist, I understand that these people were not at all born this way, they are conditioned by their environment, by white supremacist bourgeois ideology, and that treating them and the ideology that affects them as one and the same is the purest sample of race essentialism.

Under the Nazi Germany, the most vile racist chauvinism was promoted as state ideology, and genocidal rapist campaigns of terror were promoted throughout the whole Europe. Yet, Stalin in 1942, in the midst of an war, said:

It would be ridiculous to see in the Hitlerite clique the German people or the German state. Historical experience proves that Hitlers come and go, but the German people, the German state, remains. The strength of the Red Army resides in the fact that it doesn’t nurture, nor could it nurture, any hatred toward other people, and therefore couldn’t even nurture hatred for the German people; it is educated in the spirit of the equality of all peoples and all races, in the spirit of respect for the rights of other peoples.

Nowhere a Marxist would declare a whole people, and even, the majority of the Statesian people as irredeemable to the point they would claim it is useless to work with them. The white people of the US are captured by bourgeois white supremacist ideology, and instead of self-defeating themselves, all revolutionaries should devise strategies and enhance their agitation and propaganda to fight against this ideology, an effort led by the oppressed ethnic groups. Fighting white supremacy does not mean fighting Statesian white people.

Those critiques have to exist first.

Alright, take the last chapter of the book, where this thesis is most evident. Sakai discusses the tactics and strategy of Black-White alliances, and he mentions the case of the 1890 union United Mine Workers (UMW), where black workers were the majority and white workers conspired against black workers to deprive them of their jobs and power in the unions:

Both Euro-Amerikan and Afrikan miners wanted tactical unity. However, since they had different strategic interests their tactical unity meant different things to each group. The Euro-Amerikan miners wanted tactical unity in order to advance their own narrow economic interests and take away Afrikan jobs.

Sakai shows how over decades, black worker were systematically removed from the UMW over time in several regions. His research is very enlightening indeed. However, his conclusion is as follows:

The entire example of attempted tactical unity shows how strongly the oppressor nation character of both the settler unions and the settler “Left” determines their actions. The settler “Left” tried to reach an opportunistic deal with reactionary labor leaders, hoping that Afrikan workers could be used to pay the price for their alliance.
(…)
So we see that tactical unity is not just some neutral, momentary alliances of convenience. Tactical unity flows out of strategy as well as immediate circumstances. Nor is tactical unity with Euro-American workers simply the non-antagonistic working together of “complementary” but different movements. Even the simplest rank-and-file reform coalition inside a settler union is linked to the strategic conflict of oppressor and oppressed nations.
(…)
What is important about these case histories is that they should push us to think, to question, to closely examine many of the neo-colonial remnants in our minds. “Working class unity” of oppressor and oppressed is both theoretically good, and is immediately practical we are told. It supposedly pays off in higher wages, stronger unions and more organization. But did it? (all emphasis mine)

And, finally:

The thesis we have advanced about the settleristic and non-proletarian nature of the U.S. oppressor nation is a historic truth, and thereby a key to leading the concrete struggles of today. Self-reliance and building mass institutions and movements of a specific national character, under the leadership of a communist party, are absolute necessities for the oppressed. Without these there can be no national liberation. This thesis is not “anti-white” or “racialist” or “narrow nationalism.” Rather, it is the advocates of oppressor nation hegemony over all struggles of the masses that are promoting the narrowest of nationalisms - that of the U.S. settler nation. (my emphasis)

It’s been a while since I’ve read Sakai, and I should note that I haven’t read the work in full, but having read through most of it, I don’t recall Sakai ever mentioning his definition of “nation”, which he uses continuously throughout the whole book. I may have missed it in a single chapter, since I tend to read books non-linearly. To avoid any mistake on my part, I will make my definition of nation very clear, based on the outstanding Stalin work on it.

A nation is a stable community of people which shares:

1. A common language, but not necessarily a single language;
2. A common territory;
3. A common economic life, a cohesive economic bond;
4. A common culture;

Stalin attributes the term “nation” to the synthesis of these multiple determinations. Since Stalin, this remains as the most comprehensive Marxist theory of the nation and the national question. This is a far cry from the indiscriminate use of the term “nation” by Sakai. But you can deduct what Sakai treats as “nation” by the previous passages I mentioned here.

There is one thing that Sakai largely neglects and even ignore. Which is the question of ideology. Sakai treats white supremacist ideology and white labor as one and the same manifested as the “Euro-Amerikan nation”. As an analogy, it’s as if you looked at patriarchy and treated it as an aspect of the “Male-Patriarchal nation.” If we consider the Marxist understanding of the nation, we can easily notice how the “Afrikan” and “Euro-Amerikan” nations have in common a language, territory, economic life and culture, perhaps with a few particularities on the culture one. But both constitute a single nation according to Marxist theory of the nation, especially because of the shared economic life.

One thing produced in Alabama is necessary to produce something else in Ohio, which is the essential part of a commodity assembled in California to be sold in the whole US (abstract example). The US is an integrated and indivisible whole, like every nation. Besides the national question, Sakai promotes the idea of “national liberation” of the “Afrikan nation.” Taking that into consideration, what is the common territory and economic life of this “Afrikan nation” that is distinguished from the “Euro-Amerikan nation” so that the “Afrikan nation” can achieve its liberation? The more you question it, the less sense it makes.

Then in the last paragraph, Sakai advocates that considering all of that, white people cannot constitute a proletarian class. This is outright anti-Marxism, because be it a black person or a white-supremacist racist piece of shit, it doesn’t change the relations of production. It doesn’t change the fact that both are exploited, albeit certainly under different degrees, and the majority of blacks and whites do not own the means of production. It doesn’t change the fact that there are also black exploiters, like Beyoncé with her Ivy Park fashion sweatshop in Sri Lanka paying $6 a day to produce clothing sold for more than $200. Or black agents of imperialism like Obama, Kamala Harris, and so on.

Now, to answer your comment:

Looks like someone forgot to read the book.

Did you read the book? Check out this passage, from chapter 4. It makes more evident how Sakai treats white supremacist ideology with white labor as one and the same:

What was the essence of the ideology of white labor? Petit-bourgeois annexationism. (…) The ideology of white labor held that as loyal citizens of the Empire even wage-slaves had a right to special privileges (such as “white man’s wages”), beginning with the right to monopolize the labor market.
(…)
Since the ideology of white labor was annexationist and predatory, it was of necessity also rabidly pro-Empire and, despite angry outbursts, fundamentally servile towards the bourgeoisie.

How can someone read those excerpts and not see from a mile away the intrinsic race essentialism? It’s very clear throughout the whole book how Sakai treats white workers as inherently racist, as if the racist elements weren’t conditioned by racist ideology. In the same manner how through agitation and propaganda they can adopt a different viewpoint if an ideological force is strong enough to fight it. This is why I keep mentioning the Rainbow Coalition, which Sakai doesn’t address at all, in fact the Black Panther Party is not mentioned a single time by Sakai, even though it was an extremely influent party, even after it was disbanded, and even at the time Sakai wrote the book.

The Rainbow Coalition was a successful example of racial solidarity among different ethnic groups, and avoided the co-optation of leadership by poor whites, and was only ended by the assassination of Hampton. It was so successful and threatening to white supremacist ideology that the FBI planned and executed the assassination of Hampton in the matter of 8 months after the Rainbow Coalition was founded.

Wonderful summary of the book, comrade. While I disagree with some excerpts of the book, such as when Sakai affirms there is no “white proletariat” in the US (sometimes he even affirms there is no proletariat at all), I still think that everyone should read it. But not only read it, but read criticisms of it, analyze them as well, and through this dialectic movement form their own perspective on it. I believe it’s still a valuable book which offers many insights into the white supremacist nature of the US and its historical causes.

I’m not sure if you meant to reply to me, but I will respond to you nonetheless, since you appear to respond to the points I mentioned in the other comment, and because I think these discussions are very useful to other communists who reads the comments. I want to first of all, address this excerpt:

Edit: @OP I’m not mad at you, I hit reply to the wrong post. 🙃

I hope you understand that any disagreement comes from a place of honesty. I am not even Statesian, and while I am white to Brazilians, I am seen as “Latin American” by people from the North. In Brazil, white supremacy is not even close to be the omnipresent ideology like in the US, though it is still a bit present. I have no affiliation with white identity, nor do I have any interest in preserving it, much the opposite, in fact. This may seem irrelevant, but I want to be as transparent as possible so as to avoid confusion and anger.

My opinion is from someone who has never touched foot in the US, even though I am somewhat familiar with the country because your eccentric bourgeois culture imperializes every other nation on this planet. Hence why I am very open to changing my mind. However, if this discussion makes you mad, I won’t engage with you further, because that’s a sign something, somewhere, is wrong.

If white people in the US were capable of revolution, they wouldn’t have disappointed Lenin.

Can you elaborate further on this? What are you referencing, specifically? And what makes you associate the failure of revolution with the white identity on the US? The majority of countries did not achieve a socialist revolution yet, and especially the countries in the North. The labor aristocratic nature of the North Atlantic countries makes difficult to organize against the system which benefits these workers, even if they are not even aware of it. Since there’s little to “complain,” there is no reason to revolt. But workers in the South largely haven’t achieved a socialist revolution, too. This cannot be necessarily the only explanation possible. In any case, you mention “disappointing Lenin.” Did Lenin expect anything different from the US? (sorry, not aware of that, asking so I can read further on it)

Read Gramsci, whose works attempted to diagnose the failure of communism in fascist Italy.

I never studied Gramsci, what work are you referencing? I definitely want to check it out.

Have you ever spoken with a black american? Have you had even a taste of the lives they live and the struggle of fighting state-sanctioned violence every single day? Do you know how many white people are apathetic at best and complicit at worst to this issue? Do you think a people who can be so oblivious and complacent to the suffering of those who often live within a few blocks of them have what it takes to form an internationalist and anti-racist coalition?

I haven’t spoken directly with a black Statesian, but I’m very aware of the conditions of treatment of black people in the US. The Black Lives Matter revolts, the cases with George Floyd, Rodney King and LA riots, the lynchings of the 20th century, the racial segregation, the massive incarceration of black people, all of this shows there is massive oppression of blacks in the US. My grandfather was in the Brazilian army and he traveled to the US with a black friend, he used to tell us stories of how atrocious was the treatment of black people in the US, how people would harass him and his friend just because he was black. Besides that, I follow radical accounts on TikTok and here and then the question of race in the US was addressed, where the subjective experiences of black people are shown, also I’ve watched that film Get Out movie by director Jordan Peele, while it is fiction, it accurately captures the sense of terror that is being black in the US around white people.

But I realize that I have no idea what this apathy of white people is like. I have no idea how white people are not affected if they see uncalled aggression next door, happening a few blocks to them. The only thing that I imagine wouldn’t move someone was white supremacist ideology like this shit, influenced by these fascist ideologues. Not even those liberal so-called “leftists” are moved by stuff like this? But if white people have what it takes to form an anti-racist coalition it was proved through practice, through the outstanding organizing work of comrade Hampton in the Rainbow Coalition.

Here’s my understanding, and again, I openly accept that I might be wrong. White people are not born racists, this statement is obvious for any Marxist who at least has begun to understand historical materialism. We are determined principally (though not solely) by our social environment. For these complacent white racists pieces of shit to exist, there must be an ideological reproduction of racist subjects. How I interpret Hampton’s famous quote of “fighting racism with solidarity” and his work in the Rainbow Coalition is that the objective of every revolutionary is to educate subjects, so that the racist subjectivity is fought, and a subjectivity is formed based on solidarity. Racism is a major issue that revolutionaries in the US should deal with, and it’s not above nor below class, but side-to-side. The class struggle, however, should be the guiding and uniting spirit of this effort. The leadership of oppressed nations and ethnic groups should be promoted, and the alliance with whites is a possibility, but full leadership of whites should be rejected at all costs.

This is precisely the reason why Hampton was murdered, and the Black Panther Party was destroyed with so much desperation and use of lethal force that the FBI killed this leadership publicly, with national news coverage, and later tried to resolve the PR aspect of it, ultimately failing. This act was so atrocious it prompted people to spontaneously organize an activist group called “Citizens’ Commission to Investigate the FBI” which confiscated documents from the agency which first revealed to the public the existence of COINTELPRO, a FBI program to surveil, sabotage, incriminate leftists and spread disinformation to hamper organizing activities.

Fred Hampton and the BPP has shown through example that this is the direction forward. It worked, it was only stopped because the leadership was assassinated. But if this prompted the FBI to act in such a disastrous way, it is likely the way forward, a reminder of Mao’s teaching of taking good note when you are attacked by the enemy, it means you are in a good direction. The Rainbow Coalition managed to organize people from various backgrounds: the poor whites, the blacks, the indigenous peoples and Hispanics. It wasn’t fighting fire with fire, it was fighting fire with water.

I think there’s value in the book. The author made extensive research to develop it. However, the main thesis of the book is really awful. It essentializes white people as irreparably racist, and it conveys a defeatist message altogether, implying there’s nothing to be done to fight it, and that white people cannot be allies. It places the determination of race above class when it comes to white people.

The thing is, the majority of Statesians are white. If you declare that white people cannot be allies and that they are intrinsically enemies, you are neglecting 61% of the population of the US. There are some critiques of this work which makes this point more clear, take a look:

https://comraderene.wordpress.com/2020/05/21/settlers-by-j-sakai-un-marxist-trash/
https://erich-arbor.medium.com/the-anti-marxist-elitism-of-j-sakais-settlers-409ff2d496ee
https://thecharnelhouse.org/2017/05/15/dont-bother-reading-settlers-by-j-sakai/

I think those who defend this work to be of utmost value to the US radical left should address those critiques. I personally think the Settlers thesis is very beneficial to the bourgeoisie who wishes that the working class never unite and fight racism together. In the words of the late Fred Hampton,

We don’t think you fight fire with fire best; we think you fight fire with water best. We’re going to fight racism not with racism, but we’re going to fight with solidarity.