cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/15035901
The only surviving adult MOVE member, Ramona Africa, refused to testify in court and was charged and convicted on charges of riot and conspiracy; she served seven years in prison.
Jesus Christ! No criminal charges against police so let’s imprison the sole surviving victim!
(She did get a handsome settlement years later, so there’s that but holy hell man)
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*terrorists as labeled by the fucking mayor…
We got goddamned Vote Quimby down here deciding who’s a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Edit: -Terrorists armed with a… gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
-what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of “taking out the “rooftop bunker”” which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn’t, they were criminally stupid.
-you mention that anyone picking up their banner today is (some derogatory term I forget). Can you really not see why someone would look to extremes when faced with systemic oppression?
-and: 2A rights for everyone! “oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you… When any minority holds a gun they’re obviously criminals.” and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn’t served.
Idk, I’m several drinks in atm, but you’d make big money picking cherries.
*terrorists as labeled by the fucking mayor… a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Alos Warrants for making terroristic threats, illegal possession of firearms, parole violations, contempt of court
Terrorists armed with a… gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
And automatic weapons. You used the … to erase the automatic weapons part.
what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of “taking out the “rooftop bunker”” which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn’t, they were criminally stupid.
Wow, not knowing where people store their generators is the bar for criminal stupidity? I have a different bar
and: 2A rights for everyone! “oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you… When any minority holds a gun they’re obviously criminals.” and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn’t served.
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
/s
Seriously, if you start a business picking cherries, I’d like to invest, I haven’t seen anyone so skilled since 2020
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
I’m not saying it’s the same but the Bundy standoff comes to mind as a recent example where a buncha good ol’ white boys barricaded themselves in a compound, and they weren’t bombed. They didn’t fire upon cops but they did imply that they were ready to if they were raided.
Everybody is in agreement that the cops grossly mishandled the situation on May 13th 1985, and it serves as a great argument for the demilitarization of police in the USA. The problem is some people in this forum want us to think this was a random unprompted massacre of ordinary people, which is pretty far off the mark.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
They are also victims, none of the things that occurred on May 13th should have ever happened with competent and respectful leadership and negotiation perhaps by the FBI or actual service members, but being a victim doesn’t erase every stupid indecent thing people have ever done.
Those children died in the cult’s basement. MOVE continued shooting at Firefighters after their roof burst into flames.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
Thank goodness it wasn’t the same scale as that event, but at least the FBI attempted to negotiate and staved off a full offensive until 51 days had passed. If the Philadelphia police had shown that kind of respect and restraint then things might have ended a lot differently for the MOVE members.
And yet the Waco siege is still a rallying cry for anti-government groups accusing the FBI and DEA of unjust, violent overreaction, while the MOVE bombing is not. Huh, I wonder what the difference is? /s
Could unironically be the difference in body count.
Oppressed groups have an internationally recognized right to resist.
This was 1985. If they were discriminated against then they could have settled it in the courts, not by forming a cult and fortifying a compound.
both of those actions are not illegal
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Terrorist is just a loaded word. Like Hamas is a “terrorist organization” but the state of Israel isn’t.
Terrorism often boils down to “enacting violence against systems of oppression”. Is the IDF a terrorist organization? What about the DoD? These organizations use violence to perpetuate existing systems of oppression, causing vastly more harm than any domestic “terrorist” organization ever will.
While these 11 people were being killed by the state for being “terrorists”, the CIA was backing fascists (contras) to overthrow democratically elected socialists in Nicaragua. Is the CIA a terrorist organization?
That’s whataboutism, multiple wrongs don’t make a right and none of MOVE’s actions are forgiven by this argument.
Calling this whataboutism is like responding to the claim “people have a biological urge to reproduce” as a naturalistic fallacy.
You’re using the word in sorta the right ballpark (I did make a comparison, e.g a “what about”), however not every time someone says “what about X” are they committing a fallacy.
My entire point was how terrorist is a loaded word, that we only use it to describe one side (the side not in power), even though the technical definition obviously fits organizations in power. Making a comparison to demonstrate my literal only point isn’t fallacious.
There were native american terror groups, yet the U.S government that literally genocided millions of native Americans isn’t a terror organization, despite their use of terror and violence to achieve political goals. It’s a word with clear problematic etymology.
The CIA supporting Fascism in South America has fuck all to do with a confrontation between militarized police and a cult on May 13th 1985 in Philadelphia. If you think that’s not whataboutism then you’re dumb as a sack of bricks.
No man they literally threatened to bomb other countries for shit happening in the us, that’s everyone’s definition of terrorism.
This misses the point. If we’re being technical, Hamas/MOVE is obviously a terrorist organization. Trying to convince me that they are isn’t going to change my position, because I already believe that.
It’s just that in-so-far as Hamas/MOVE etc. are terrorist organizations, the CIA/IDF are far larger ones. They inflict terror and use violence for political gain, the only difference is they’re the ones in power so they decide who is a terrorist.
That’s the problem with the word. The IDF and Hamas are both violent terror groups that shouldn’t exist, but Hamas only exists as a result of the IDF’s genocidal campaign, and yet we only call Hamas a terror group. It’s deeply problematic.
no, the CIA and IDF are “freedom fighters”
Correct.
Qualified fucking immunity
Yet another thing to go after the revolution.
Don’t need qualified immunity if there are no cops left.
Ah yes murder all the police with militaristic fanatics then we’ll never have to worry about crime or corruption again! It literally can’t go wrong!
what, you think that cops are stopping crime and corruption? almost half the fucking federal inmates are in for drug possession XD, the great crime of getting baked
The police obtained arrest warrants in 1985 charging four MOVE occupants with crimes including parole violations, contempt of court, illegal possession of firearms, and making terroristic threats. Mayor Wilson Goode and police commissioner Gregore J. Sambor classified MOVE as a terrorist organization. Police evacuated residents of the area from the neighborhood prior to their action. Residents were told that they would be able to return to their homes after a 24-hour period.
There was an armed standoff with police, who threw tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them, and a gunfight with semi-automatic and automatic firearms ensued for 90 minutes… At 2 p.m., Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed.
From a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter, Philadelphia Police Department proceeded to drop two 1.5-pound bombs (which the police referred to as “entry devices”) made of Tovex, a dynamite substitute, combined with two pounds of FBI-supplied C-4, targeting a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house. The bombs exploded after 45 seconds, igniting the fuel of a gasoline-powered generator and setting the house on fire, which was left to burn. Officials later stated that this was to let the fire burn through the roof and destroy the “bunker”, so police could then drop tear gas into the house and flush out the occupants.
30 minutes later, firefighters moved in to control the fire but there was gunfire and the firefighters and police were ordered back as the fire spread to neighboring houses down the street.
The only two MOVE survivors, Birdie Africa, who was 13 at the time, and Ramona Africa, both escaped the house. Police initially said that two men had also run out of the house at the same time and fired at them and that police had returned fire. Ramona Africa said that police fired at those trying to escape. Police said that MOVE members moved in and out of the house shooting at the police. The fire department later declared the fire under control at 11:47 p.m.
If that’s all true, then that adult and child from the cult who lived are lucky they lived after their cult had the gall to shoot at firefighters.
EDIT: added words
You’re assuming that both of them, including the 13-year old, fired at the firefighters?
Boy of you think 13-year-olds can’t shoot you haven’t seen shit
Boy of you think 4-year-olds can’t shoot you haven’t seen shit
/s
Boy of you think babies can’t shoot, you’ve never changed a diaper.
No but I am assuming the two of them were a part of the larger MOVE group referred to as “they”, especially given they both had the last name Africa which was adopted by all of the cult’s members. It’s a miracle anybody made it out of the compound after hours of gunfighting and fires that engulfed 2 blocks.
You should not assume children are part of any group or movement. This wasn’t a good vs bad event, as reality seldom is. Shitty people on both ends resulted in a tragedy.
Uh okay pal, how about this reformatting:
If that’s all true, then that adult and child from the cult who lived are lucky they lived after their cult had the gall to shoot at firefighters.
Thanks pal, I agree with you once you reformatted yourself for clarity. Ty for finally being clear!
Aight, I’ll go edit the original to mirror this.
You believe that part?
I’m not going to sit here and give you a lecture on what the word “IF” means.
Yeah I responded before you changed it, so stfu.
Nah the word if was there from the start, so stfu.
The fuck it was
I’m sure there is a way to verify it on Lemmy.
Actually, here is an easy way to tell, your comment in response was over 2 hours later than the last time an edit was made to my comment. So the if absolutely was always there, just hover over the little pencil icon.
Seems reasonable
Bombing a house in the middle of a residential area seems “reasonable”?
A judge and jury found the police department used unnecessary excessive violence and violated constitutional protections against unlawful searches.
I’m constantly told the 2nd amendment exists for the express purpose of shooting cops. Are you saying the 2nd amendment is in the wrong here and that police should have access to weapons denied to ordinary people?
2nd amendment is supposed to keep the government in check. the fact there are guns citizens cannot get but the government can is a travesty
I want a god damn 25 megaton nuke tyvm.
I need a recreational 50 Megatone McNuke
Nah, police weren’t adequately trained to handle something on this scale. Something had to be done, but not by police with satchel charges and an anti-tank machinegun.
anti-tank machine gun
What?
Yeah the city police had and used it. Crazy, right?
What is an anti tank machine gun?
A big gun with big bullets that shoots really fast. Fuck if I know the model, but the police had and used it in this event.
Holy shit, I’d never heard about this.
That’s hardly the only one that US public schooling completely avoids teaching about… Tulsa, OK, OK to TN before that, and Wyoming too… the despicably shameful list goes on
I don’t think this event is in any way comparably to what happened in Tulsa.
I’m sorry, is the crux of your argument to devalue based on the quality of atrocity? 🤢
What the police did to the MOVE compound was wrong, but what the MOVE terrorists were doing wasn’t right either.
No one but you is even arguing that, and you’re dangerously close to some shit heel whataboutism. Mind your step.
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You’d defend Waco too, no doubt. 🤷🏼♀️
but only the third (?) time that US citizens were subject to aerial bombardment … so, um … there’s that?
I suggest looking up what the Pinkertons were about as well. The US had a nasty history when it comes to the poor and people of color who get “uppity”.
They still exist to this day, and do the same business. There more recent thing was being hired by Wizards of the Coast to intimidate someone who received MTG cards before official release date.
This was a big stink on the R site; there is no reason to maintain that company name except to capitalize on its horrifying reputation.
I know very well what the Pinkertons did back then — and are still doing as part of various union-buster merc groups hired by Amazon, Starbucks, etc. (the WotC thing is a blip that happened to ruffle geek feathers, so it bubbled up over there), but the simple fact that the general public doesn’t (want to?) connect the dots between alt-right, cop gangs, and mercs like the Pinkertons is only one reason that this nation will continue to be slavery based, no matter the cosmetic flourish every 4+ years. 🤌🏽
Pinkertons today is a brand name purchased by a Swedish security firm. It has nothing to do with the previous Pinkertons and (fellow) D&D nerds circlejerking that the guys from Red Dead Redemption had come to (literally ask to) retrieve stolen property without involving the law was very embarrassing.
If it had nothing to do with the name, they would have dropped the name. The reputation behind the name is the point. Plenty of people knew who the pinkertons were before Rockstar released grand theft cowboy.
Just so we’re clear, your argument is that this Swedish firm have the same name as 19th century American “mercs” therefore modern day slavery is real?
I remember this craziness. Was insane and of course, it was all considered ok.
Militarization of the police has been a wild fucking ride over the last 40 years.
Acorn drops and some pimple-faced teenager with a badge goes on a shooting rampage. Then we’re told he needs better training, so we spend another couple million dollars bringing in IDF officers to train local cops on effective use of Skunk spray
to be fair, they “extra training” seems to be learning Hitler quotes and killology(the idea that police killing people is a good thing)
by “wild fucking ride” i assume you mean criminal matter, since that’s the only reasonable expectation for bullshit like this - that it’s illegal
fix your shit, america
How do you police the police?
I dunno… Coast Guard?
FBI, the FBI polices police, but the government made Police basically immune to most prosecution
the FBI polices police
If only.
No, the FBI police under federal law. Unless a police officer engaged in interstate criminal conduct, it’s not their problem
doesn’t need internsate criminal conduct, for example when a Mississippi sheriff killed his mistress after she got pregnant and the rest of the local police didn’t want to interfere the FBI showed up and arrested said sheriff
And racist think this kind of life destroying event generation after generations doesn’t have a negative impact on a group of people. The fact that Black Americans have anything should be applauded. This is just one event, look up Oklahoma massacre, or our wide spread lynchings history. There are still to this day southern families that have body parts of black lynching victims because that’s just what their ancestors did back in the day. Hunt down black people that didn’t stay in line and mount a piece of their body over the mantel as a family heirloom.
TBF I think a cult compound in the middle of the city full of white people armed to the teeth who want to take down the government and keep missing their paroles wouldn’t end well, either. This event was not in itself racism destroying generations, rather the result of.
