I’m gonna get real with you folks, we’ve had way too many of these posts recently. I’ve been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn’t care less about my gender identity. But just because that’s true for me, doesn’t make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don’t like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That’s fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah’s admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users don’t want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @[email protected], other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @[email protected] agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
That’s all folks, have at 'er.
This shouldn’t even be a debate or question. This hateful bullshit against Blahaj just needs to stop and mods need to put their foot down and say enough is enough. Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly is okay or permitted I don’t think that [email protected] should even be on our instance anymore, and our admins should just remove it.
I hope it doesn’t come to that. I hope this community can put an end to this bullshit and stop endorsing queerphobic users’ complaints.
“They can’t be power tripping mods because they are queer!”
No, that is stupid.
Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly
Nobody is arguing against blahaj for being queer friendly. People are arguing against some of their members for being unfriendly to people, including queers, among them LittleRatInALittleHat. That’s the only reason people are caring about this.
The type of mentality “you’re not allowed to criticize me, because I am X, and so unless you agree with me you’re being anti-X” is tempting but it is wrong. You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
This shouldn’t even be a debate or question.
Yes, that does seem to be the consistent position in Blahaj.
Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying “man, basketball? I don’t get it” but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldn’t exist if you dare engage with that.
You’d ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
Brother in Christ, imagine you had a sub where you talk about basketball and people constantly came in, not fans of basketball just saying “man, basketball? I don’t get it” but they are just using that to argue how basketball shouldn’t exist if you dare engage with that.
You’d ban those posts. Because you want your sub to be about basketball for basketball fans. Not because you want to argue with non fans about the validity of the existence of basketball.
Cool, now, how about looking around outside of that sub for people who say “Basketball? I don’t get it” to hand out bans and accuse of being Basketball-phobes? Or, in this case, an actual Basketball fan who dared question a referee’s decision? Unfortunately, the holsum basketball community decided that made them a Sports Hater and an opponent of public schooling, and RIGHTEOUSLY drove them out of town!
Hope that answer was straight and masculine enough for ya.
I don’t like sports and I’m not particularly traditionally masculine, but thanks for the stereotyping.
Well, I’m for this move. The why is obvious, as you’ve covered it in the post already.
I would also like to voice support for a couple ideas from previous comments
First, that previous posts stay up, and locked, so that people can still see that the issues were.
Second, that y’all consider the possibility of an FPT (frequently power tripped) thread at some frequency where folks can still hash out the common subjects. This and the mod abuse C/ are valuable pressure relief valves. I worry that a total banning of “frequent fliers” (sic) might have effects down the road.
I know that’s extra work for mods, so it’s definitely a big ask, but lemmy does need places where disgruntled users can complain. Having multiple places is better because one community would get swamped if they’re the only place people can go for specific complaints.
I wouldn’t be against a temporary ban on posts about getting banned from LBZ over neopronouns, but my general inclination is to keep the previous posts up but locked as a wall of shame. I also understand wanting to take them down altogether and I wouldn’t be that fussed about it if they were.
I agree in at least a memorandum or a break on this so everyone, myself included, can outside and breathe from air. Play games they enjoy. Read a good book. Listen to music.
Taking a break from the keyboard helps me when I’m upset about online stuff that doesn’t impact the real world.
No
In favor of doing this, but keep the old posts locked without removing them so people know what happened and what led up to this.
If I might make a suggestion, assuming it wouldn’t cause more of a moderation nightmare: Maintain a list of soft banned topics that get relegated to a weekly “containment” thread. Complaints about explicitly stated instance wide rules get routed there. People have their space to complain but it keeps things cleaner. It also still allows this place to serve as kind of a watch for abuse. Just because it’s a clearly stated instance wide rule, or that anyone can pick up and go somewhere else on the fediverse, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not being abused.
Either way, I despise the idea of deleting the previous threads. There’s nothing illegal and people should be able to draw their own conclusions about those shitshows. I think the previous threads should be locked to prevent any further comments requiring mod work, but left up. They are important context to this whole mess in case it flares up again. Really sucks coming into something late and being attacked for asking questions that are only obvious if you’re already up to date, that come across as attacks to people already in it, but you have no way of knowing any better about.
I also have some concerns about this comm if certain topics start becoming forbidden. It limits the ability of this space to allow the community to pass judgement on and discuss mod/admin actions. But not limiting could end up with this com just devolving into a complaint quarantine for leapords ate my face “contestants”.
Tl;dr- don’t ban topic (maybe a weekly quaratine thread for certain topics), lock old threads and leave up
The way I see it, is that the rules and aim of the instance are all written out pretty fucking clearly and people on a platform dominated by longform text don’t really have an excuse for not being able to comprehend it. Like seriously, I had been using Lemmy for two days when I checked out Blåhaj, and I feel like I understood then already because it’s not hard and English is my native language.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
As far as I’m concerned, moderators and admins doing exactly what is clearly fucking written in the description and rules is not power abuse.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
I was accused of being a transphobe on a comm that wasn’t even in Blahaj. I defended myself. For that, I was banned. Another poster, a trans user, made a comment. For that, they were dogpiled by Blahaj defenders, called a fascist and a transphobe, and then banned. Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
Now Blahaj defenders want this to not be discussed under any circumstances.
I don’t think they’re saying you can’t discuss it, or they’re going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that. They’re just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they’d like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight. I think this is one of the rare times when “you can still talk about it, you just can’t do it here anymore” has a good amount of validity.
And like I say, I think the users are much more the issue here than the moderation. I think “how do we manage to get along on the fediverse” may be a better way to approach it than “don’t you agree that the mods of blahaj are terrible.”
Who here wants the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences?
That’s sort of what I’m saying. A lot of people on lemmy do want to have that right, and it’s not super-important (apparently) within the consensus culture to say they’re not allowed to. The boundaries of what’s acceptable behavior are often in very weird places, to me.
I don’t think they’re saying you can’t discuss it, or they’re going to ban or defederate you for trying to talk about it, or anything like that.
Proposal from OP, one of the mods (who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
One of the most upvoted replies:
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
They’re just saying that, now that the issue has been discussed a bunch of times in this community with nothing getting accomplished other than a big productive-conclusion-free food fight, they’d like to (or they are proposing to) prohibit future repetitions of the exact same food fight.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is “Users are sabotaging discussions they don’t want to happen, so we should just not have those discussions”, then all you’ve done is reward toxic behavior.
(who, in fairness to them, is very hard put on by all this pointless fucking drama that they get to get hit with without even being involved)
Yeah that’s part of my POV lol.
we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
Yeah, deleting past posts is silly I think. I don’t agree with that part.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
Yeah, that’s a bunch of bullshit. The only reason I didn’t get in an argument with that person is (1) life is short (2) like I was saying, there are clearly a bunch of good-faith people who are sort of twisted up with certain words and definitions, such that they’ll interpret anyone trying to disagree with that person as transphobia. That’s the whole point of them being so forceful about defining anyone disagreeing with them in a very particular way. It lays the groundwork for anyone who’s an “ally” to misinterpret any disagreement.
I think the solution to that has to come in some other form than just having a big sprawling slapfight with them. The chance of them seeing reason about it seems near 0, and I think the sum total impact of the slapfight on other people who are observing it will just be to drive them a little further into their echo-chamber.
The reason why it is production-free is because Blahaj defenders swarm the comm every time it happens. If the position is “Users are sabotaging discussions they don’t want to happen, so we should just not have those discussions”, then all you’ve done is reward toxic behavior.
Correct. I’m not saying it’s not a problem. I’m saying that having big frequent slapfights about it will not solve the problem (and yes, partly specifically because at this point there’s a whole crew of users who’ve I guess been amped-up and trained to come in and vigorously inflame the slapfight any time one happens.) The best I can come up with is:
- Having a more serious conversation about what type of culture we want to establish here, without coming out of the gate and announcing, effectively, that anyone who’s a supporter of one particular instance is “bad.”
- Changing the tradition of moderation so that there’s not an expectation of someone standing over the comments needing to delete anything that is “bad” before someone sees it, and has a total meltdown and can’t get out of bed for the rest of the day.
Neither of those are simple things to do. I’m just saying that that type of conversation seems more likely to lead to a good solution to the badness that you’re seeing, than is just vocally hassling the blahaj admins and users every time this same issue comes up.
Everything involving this Blahaj slapfight has been BPR, and anyone continuing to rehash it over here is just BPR^2
Like, seriously, this should’ve ended the minute the obvious troll provoking everyone got banned. Nothing productive will ever come of continuing to talk about it now, all sides need to let it go.
real af
real af
Oh cool, so you weren’t one of the people saying everyone who left 196 was a transphobe?
Oh, wait, you’re literally one of the people who fucking started this.
jokes aside, i have been consistently defending you on blahaj for months explicitly that i don’t think you’re a transphobe and moreso just a bad ally. i get some pushback but i think my points get heard. :)
jokes aside, i have been consistently defending you on blahaj for months explicitly that i don’t think you’re a transphobe and moreso just a bad ally. i get some pushback but i think my points get heard. :)
It’s cute that you still talk about me there.
oh yikes no i didn’t say frequently i said consistently. maybe 2 times. but both times i did!
oh yikes no i didn’t say frequently i said consistently. maybe 2 times. but both times i did!
Typical of your level of literacy. I didn’t say frequently.
It’s cute that you still talk about me there.
just making sure you didn’t get the wrong idea! frankly we dgaf about you
no what i said was, real af
So you think the idea of leaving this all behind is real, but you still love bringing it up too much, unprovoked, to be ‘real’.
Okay.
learn to take a joke idk
learn to take a joke idk
“ha ha I was just joking” is your go-to every time you get called out.
it’s my go to every time i was making a joke that went over your head, akshually
I’m completely in favor of this.
Frankly, most of what I see on this comm is BPR and YDI, and most people could probably benefit from taking their bans and touching grass. But having some posts be YDI makes the PTB’s more exciting so maybe i’m wrong.
Maybe we should make some penalty for earning a YDI or BPR, so that people who receive them aren’t encouraged to re-hash the same conflicts over and over? I’m honestly not sure. Part of the problem is that the same people cross-post the same conflict on similar comms, which makes it feel as if the same issue is being litigated repeatedly.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
But complaining about receiving a ban from a protective community with strict conduct policies is certainly not the intent of this community, i don’t think.
Is that all it takes to be immune from PTB status? Being a ‘protective’ community, but only towards the ‘right’ people who think in the ‘right’ way?
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
Boy you sure are pissed you got blocked before getting to say a slur.
what
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Maybe it is? Don’t non-binary people have a right to moderate their own space as they like?
Is there a group out there that doesn’t have the right to moderate their own space ‘as they like’?
If they have a rule against gatekeeping gender identities and pronouns in their own instance, don’t they have a right to remove offenders from their servers?
“They have the right” and “It is always the correct call” are two entirely different concepts.
You’re all over this topic today, maybe just take a second and listen to what the community is saying. You’ve more than said your piece.
Yeah, well maybe I’m fucking pissed that I just watched a user get harassed out of the Fediverse because Blahaj wants to play harassment games on other people’s instances, and that I’m the one who had to fucking bring it up to be discussed. Maybe I don’t like the idea that if I stayed quiet this all would’ve been swept under the rug.
Jesus
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today. If your goal is to discuss a specific abuse then you’ve done a piss poor job of it.
I’d recommend reaching out to @[email protected] if you think there’s been that severe of an abuse that’s happened, and the community mod hasn’t addressed it well enough.
Honestly, though, it just seems like you have an axe to grind and you’re taking it out on everyone else. Either settle it with the admins or cool off a bit, you’re souring the space for everyone by flaming out like this.
I haven’t a clue what event you’re referring to even though I feel as though I’ve encountered nothing but your comments today.
I’ve summarized the events in this thread alone at least twice.
My opinions on xenogender aside, the fact that Blahaj defenders, in this very comm, harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse has me fuming, and rightfully so in my opinion. And they play it off as “[The harassed user] deserved it.” even now. That is pretty core to the anger I feel right now.
Uh, considering recent events, where Blahaj defenders dogpiled a trans person on another instance for disagreeing with them, you sure about that
Most of my comments have been refutations to specific arguments put forth in the context of those events.
Do you have something more specific than your (purely objective) recounting of what happened? A link to it?
At the moment, I’m not sure I’d trust you if you told me the sky was blue
https://lemmy.world/post/26286098
It’s one of the most recent threads on this comm.
Proposing a very specific limit on posts referring mod/admin actions taken against users on LBZ that directly fall afoul of their instance rules regarding very specific gatekeeping might have some value. The subject has been hashed and re-hashed too fucking much. Their rules are their rules, breaking those rules on the instance is clear YDI. Breaking those rules elsewhere and having action taken against you is arguably PTB. I’m in favor of the idea of putting that on wax.
Purging previous discussion is no good, and even the proposal, coming from a community mod as it does, rubs me the wrong way. It shouldn’t, because you have just as much right to propose a change as any other community member, but it puts me on edge.
There is value in what’s been said already, even if some of it is highly disagreeable. Suggesting removal of that record for any reason invites future discussion of the same, IMO. Not everyone who will ever be a member of this community is a member now. If we’re going to consider making a rule about this whole mess, best to leave the roadmap that led us here intact.
Potential yes to a well-defined rule of specific, narrow scope. Hard, hard no to retroactive application of that rule.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @[email protected] would very much agree with this decision as well.
I agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
You seem like the kinda guy who says calling Nazis Nazis devalues the word Nazi.
… because I summarized someone else’s position accurately?
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally. I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing. I have respect for the involvement you have in sustaining and contributing platform and the effort you clearly put into it, and I have seen you say things I really agreed with, but this is too much for me. This is not how you encourage left unity and safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible. I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
You’re being obtuse and I hope when things cool down you’re able to see the harm this behavior is causing in this specific circumstance and also more generally.
A trans user was just harassed off the Fediverse by these people, man. Is that harm invisible? I’m removeding about people doing that. That’s harmful?
I understand that you probably have good intentions but I think you’re either very misguided, trolling, reacting without thinking through the impact of your behavior, or some combination of these things, and I do feel like the ban was warranted especially considering the fit you’re throwing.
My ban’s not the issue, here. When it was locked the other day, I was content to let that be it. The ban was a minor thing; annoying and shitty, but ultimately not meaning much considering that, as mentioned in the OP, I didn’t even use Blahaj anymore.
If you think my ban was warranted, that’s fine. But “We shouldn’t discuss Blahaj anymore”, as in the comment I was replying to, is not.
I know you know about the paradox of tolerance.
Sure. You tolerate Nazis, they’ll take over and won’t tolerate you.
Where are the Nazis, here?
Because it looks to me an awful lot like infinite purity tests inflicted even on users outside of the Blahaj instance, combined with sustained harassment; neither of which encourage left unity or safe and sustainable practices that support as many people as possible.
“It’s not mod abuse if I think they had it coming for Wrongthink, and even discussing the possibility should be banned.”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
“I’m just going to ignore every point he makes and make up some worthless garbage about banning by disagreement because I can’t address Draconic’s actual points”
The issue brought up by these threads is whether moderator action was justified or not; whereas you are saying the very topic is verboten and makes this place “toxic” and “unusable” as you harass marginalized folk who commit the crime of disagreeing with you. The point you’re making is in favor of a topic ban on YPTB. Hence “and even discussing the possibility should be banned.” I’m sorry that you don’t understand what you yourself are advocating for.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it. You and them are indeed gatekeeping other people’s identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way. Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not “harassing minorities” people don’t get a free pass because they’re trans sweetie, if they’re gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
You got your answer long ago. You Deserved It, They Deserved it.
Yes, I know you think they deserved to be harassed by you and your pals, but generally in this comm the question is about moderator action.
You and them are indeed gatekeeping other people’s identities and accusing them of being evil for identifying that way.
Fucking what.
Also for the record calling people out for gatekeeping and hostility is not “harassing minorities” people don’t get a free pass because they’re trans sweetie, if they’re gatekeeping assholes they get called out. Whether they scream bigotry afterwards or not is their choice but when they chose to falsely scream bigotry it says more about them than the person calling them out, and ironically puts them in that bad situation of being harmful since crying wolf about transphobia ends up being more harmful than helpful.
God, that’s some painful fucking irony, to say that with no self-awareness. Bravo.
not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it
Literally the comment you wrote immediately before this one involved you deriding bad faith arguments.
Agree. Thank you.
This fucking comm is already SRD for Lemmy.
Cya.
I have a related question:
Where do the users who get banned from YPTB go, when they eventually get banned from YPTB?
believe it or not, straight to jail.
I think it would be funny if there was a rule that the only way to get banned from YPTB was by coming in and saying “well, it’s the moderators’ community, so they can really do anything they want and you’re wrong for disagreeing with them in any way.” And then that person could get banned with reason “Okey dokey then.”
I don’t think it’s actually a good idea. Freedom to say whatever in YPTB, even if you’re being kind of obnoxious about it, seems important, and imitating bad behavior to make a point is still bad behavior. I just think it would be funny.
Double-hell
There is a mod hot allert community…
On fedi there is always a place to go. Start your own community on a obscure server !
That’s how decentralization works… Vote with your feet.
Isolationist communities will lose on the long run anyway.
Hello. I am the new moderator of the mod hot allert community. Things are going to change.
