i realize it’s a free lemmy and i can just try to say things and see what other people think about my understanding/holes in it. i have been trying to read theory for a year, and the problem is, i realize, if i don’t get someone’s explicit confirmation that i’m on the right track with my understanding, i’ll stay in the same place. i always get hung up on specific pages, and then confused, and then the text itself just looks like an illegible block, so it causes even more problems in reading. so i think before i continue anything, i’ll check my understanding with people.

does anyone know what AI is like for helping with theory? i know models vary (and there was one from some trotskyist site back then). i’m not familiar with how LLMs work, though apparently some people have success on deepseek given how it’s trained. is there a way you guys train LLMs so they could help with specifically an understanding of theory that isn’t poisoned with the west’s training?

if you’re someone versed in theory and actually end up reading this, please rate the definitions around 1/5! 1 is this is not a good understanding. 3 is you have a sufficient understanding, without glaring inaccuracies. 5 is you have an exemplary in-depth and accurate understanding. my main goal is accuracy. i’ve got some rankings made by myself up.

surplus value (3/5)

the difference between the value the worker produces for the boss/factory owner/borjwazee (joking typo) in the process of their workday (from the value of whatever commodity they make), and the money they’re given at the end of the day for their work that produced that value.

a worker sells specifically the labor power that produces that surplus value, not just their hours (something of the sort, because marx made a big fuss about the distinction between labor power as a term and labor in whatever pamphlet i read a year ago now).

this is a Contradiction, because the boss didn’t do anything, it just owns the factory and the rights to the money when it sells the product the worker made. so it’s profiting from the labor power/surplus value taken from the worker. a contradiction is one of the tensions in the system of capitalism that will eventually have to become so irreconcilable that the workers who are getting shafted will obviously do something to. fix it and wrest control away.

in addition, the worker has to surrender this because they’re in the wage slavery system under capitalism, where necessities are withheld unless they have the money/wages to pay for it.

for capitalism to work it needs someone to be poor. this is when i get confused, because i am prone to the anti-communist questions and ignorance that i was indoctrinated with. if there’s no reason to work outside of necessity, how is enough produced like it is in AES? there was the inertia of voluntary manpower to set up things like industry in the first years of AES like PRC (with help from USSR), and then after that, to build light industry, there’s things like markets/modernization á la Deng, and then i suppose mechanization or automation will then remove the human worker from the equation?

anyways, also, before improvements in technology, most owned some means of production and sold their work or commodity themselves, like artisans as a class, who are in control of the means of production and the thing they make, but this is inefficient (as compared to the output of, say, a factory as compared to this cottage industry). as enterprises outcompete these small artisans they diminish. i don’t get the significance of this, i just know it’s there. these petit bourgeoisie can sometimes be reactionary like the luddites who felt industry and technology was a threat and then just attacked technology. i’m not sure how else they’re significant, i just know they were there, especially in the emergence of capitalism i think, so maybe i don’t need to know that much? anyways

imperialism [how does it come about, when, why, what] (2/5)

imperialism in lenin’s definition, which is basically the only useful one (god forbid the term is also interchangeably used for “expansionism”, that’s something i’ve seen, sorry to bring that up cuz it’s unrelated, i’m just annoyed) is the imposition of a foreign country or borjwazee on another country to extract more capital(?)

in a capitalist system, there are basic processes that lead to a uniform conclusion. first off, a bigger company that has more capital will absorb more capital, and eventually you reach monopoly. big gets bigger: they have the money to make better products, invest in more cost-effective machinery, etc. and buy out smaller enterprises if need be = monopoly.

at a certain point, the monopoly gets so big it doesn’t have much to do, or can’t grow any more without doing Imperialism.

it has to expand because they have finite people in their country. if i’m highly developed industry some point in USA history, and i’ve run out of people to sell to because at first i’m contained to national market, how can i increase profits?

if i want to dramatically increase profits even though the customer pool is still limited, i can do a few things. i could pay my workers less (in a situation before outsourcing, if this was USA and i pay workers less and then they’re my only consumers, there’s less of my product sold) or i can mechanize more (same effect) or do other cost cuts in the production process

but once all the corners to cut are cut, and all the wages to slash are slashed, what else?

that’s when it expands elsewhere. also at a point the industry/enterprise becomes married to the banks, the monopoly basically ensures it’s always the best course for the banks to feed them and get a return on their investment to the point that they are so synergetic they become unified in some way.

then, at that point, they can do things like buy up other enterprises abroad to suck up the money and bring it back to the core ->

(at which point i don’t know the specific process that happens to it, but i just know it’s definitely got something to do with the ‘service sector’ and how nobody really produces shit, they just have a big ‘tertiary’ or heck even the ‘quaternary’ sector nonsense. your job is transitioned into something where you don’t produce something necessarily [but i feel like i’m wrong because things like service jobs do create surplus value i think? like baristas, or people that just ship already existing commodities, etc. etc?])

-> so less value is even kept within the imperialized country, hence why they remain underdeveloped and stagnant.

in addition, if they have any risk of growing independent and not having to rely on the capital export of another country, organizations like the WTO or other banking bodies can leverage things against them, but also things like blockades or diplomatic isolation, hell even military action to destabilize are things that happen for the sake of imperialism (RSF, NATO proxy war in hopes the rich can get richer, Iran war, iraq war, etc.)

then what’s the difference between that and foreign investment? because so many stupid idiots whine about BRI or other PRC initiatives or see them as imperialism. but isn’t it self evident PRC doesn’t impoverish the countries they’re undergoing this trade with or impose such conditions? not all trade counts as imperialism, then, since the definition is exclusively when industry employs coercive and destructive mechanisms to maximize profit

  • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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    17 days ago

    To get the surplus value you will also have to subtract the money spent by the capialist in maintaining the means of production (I always forget whether this is variable or constant capital.)

    I think what constitutes a contradiction needs to be looked at from a more macro perspective. Whether the capitalist should get to keep surplus value or not is a conclusion we reach after studying the system this nature of relationship creates. We do not presuppose that he shouldn’t keep the surplus value. We look at the outcome of this happening at scale and see that this creates a tendency for capitalists to maximise the surplus value he keeps so that he can remain competitive with other capitalists. This leads to a downward pressure on the wages of workers which impedes their purchasing power. Since workers buy the goods, and in buying create profits for the capitalist, by rendering workers less capable to buy goods he is hampering his own ability to make profits. This is a contradiction because the capitalist is working against his own interests. From this we conclude that maximising surplus value is contradictory, maybe even the existence of surplus value is contradictory.

    The point about people working only out of necessity is dubious. You could theoretically possibly survive in an AES country by not working and relying on safety nets. But people’s conceptions around work and work ethic is a social phenomenon shaped by cultual and material conditions. You can’t generalise a specific attitude towards work on the entirety of the population. Work can be rewarding sometimes even when it is exploitative. I personally feel good about being able to contribute to the society. Moreover, people will more likely than not want to not just survive but also live a dignified live. So it’s possible and, in my opinion, easy to make people want to work without dangling the sword of destitution over their heads.

    Whether Luddites were reactionary is debated I think. I am shit at history but I have read people arguing against it. Specifically, destruction of machines as a form of protest does not necessarily mean a blanket opposition to mechanisation.

    Regarding cottage industries I am not sure what you aren’t getting. You get the point about how the rate at which they produced goods is much lower than that of modern industry. I am not sure what to add to that.

    • yunah-knowles@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      16 days ago

      I think what constitutes a contradiction needs to be looked at from a more macro perspective. Whether the capitalist should get to keep surplus value or not is a conclusion we reach after studying the system this nature of relationship creates.

      this is a really great point and i am very thankful for it. after all, in scientific socialism you’re seeking to avoid idealism or nonsense and things like belief in something being ontologically “bad” or “good”

      We look at the outcome of this happening at scale and see that this creates a tendency for capitalists to maximise the surplus value he keeps so that he can remain competitive with other capitalists. This leads to a downward pressure on the wages of workers which impedes their purchasing power. Since workers buy the goods, and in buying create profits for the capitalist, by rendering workers less capable to buy goods he is hampering his own ability to make profits. This is a contradiction because the capitalist is working against his own interests.

      …which then makes this whole explanation excellent so i’m very glad to have it, it both helps me actually further understand what a contradiction means in the marxist sense and of course the actual reason why what this is is Bad

      The point about people working only out of necessity is dubious. (and following explanation)

      this also helps quite a lot. it’s not as if i don’t believe AES doesn’t work because i’ve got eyes and the impatience to dismiss the western propaganda as nonsense nowadays, but i don’t know, this explanation once more, while basic and even just saying things i knew (i mean, i wanna work and do things to help people even in capitalism so i don’t need sword of damocles poverty) just helps me reorient myself and go “right, i do understand that”. it’s more like helping me if someone asked me themself

      Whether Luddites were reactionary is debated I think.

      it’s also up to my understanding and so that would be more historical knowledge before i could apply the correct analysis, so i’ll look into that

      Regarding cottage industries I am not sure what you aren’t getting.

      it may sound minor but thank you even for this remark, somehow even this helps, for me what it feels like having things in my brain without confirmation as to what’s true or not is basically stumbling blind, this comment is sincerely, extremely appreciated

    • yunah-knowles@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      16 days ago

      to check my understanding again

      We look at the outcome of this happening at scale and see that this creates a tendency for capitalists to maximise the surplus value he keeps so that he can remain competitive with other capitalists.

      tendency = you COULD act to the contrary but you’d basically die and it would eventually still come that this process sees itself to completion. to act in accordance is existential–as monopolies persist, increasingly the only option for a competitor to survive would be to strive for growing their size hence cutting cost to retain as much surplus value as one can, so this explains the tendency, whoever does not do so struggles to stay afloat. someone who prioritizes long term sustainability (let’s say hypothetically a capitalist who would be like Ohhh i see a contradiction, and thus i do not slash my workers’ wages) will still not be rewarded, as the other enterprise will then still grow and then at a point outcompete the enterprise until it’s absorbed/dissolved

      this helps me as elementary as it sounds re-explained because it helps me process when my brain starts trying to focus on logic of “let’s say, in any case, XYZ owner is able to make his business do ABC that wouldn’t then harm workers, how does that impact things”.

      then this whole thing is the proof that capitalism is a self-selecting and preserving system. waow

      • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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        16 days ago

        Yes that is what I meant by tendency. Like these days if you look at what counts as “innovation” or “disruption” these days is always a new way to eke out more profits, maybe create a new market that displaces an old one, etc. But if a capitalist tries to improve his workers’ lives he will likely go out of profit. Some entities can survive while being worker-owned and such but often they are exceptional cases.

        • yunah-knowles@lemmygrad.mlOP
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          16 days ago

          it’ll sound rather intense because there are many available resources out there but thank you genuinely from the bottom of my heart for your explanation. while i probably am gonna go to those preexisting masterposts when i have further questionsso that i don’t clog up this instance too frequently, this post and even your feedback alone has helped me actually find motivation to keep going, because i actually can know and feel like i’m building understanding :) thank you :3!

          • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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            16 days ago

            It’s fine. Interaction with people is always fun compared to trying to interpret theory on its own. It’s part of the reason why the other commenter suggested reading groups.

  • none [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    17 days ago

    Have you considered a reading group? Online or IRL if it is available. Or just keep posting here or other places. Try to apply your theory to analyze an event or situation. Create homework assignments for yourself.

    hexbear.net/c/theory used to have regular reading groups, maybe they will restart if there is interest. Or you can post your thoughts there as threads.

    Even if you dont share, writing helps to clarify ideas.

    There are all kinds of guides that include self reflection questions, for example https://hexbear.net/post/7689647

    Even if you find the best most communist LLM to help you, you’ll have learned to understand things in a robot way. How will you be able to talk to people about it? What is your goal with theory? Personally its my idea that the way you learn is also the way you know.

    • Edie [it/its]@lemmygrad.ml
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      16 days ago

      I want to make a reading group for Cowbee’s list. If I don’t get to it sooner it will be around when This Soviet World is finished.


      ⓘ This user is suspected of being a cat. Please report any suspicious behavior.

      • yunah-knowles@lemmygrad.mlOP
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        15 days ago

        it’s been quite some time since i was last active and i don’t remember what instance it was on, but for things like the group readings of (these are texts off top of my head: blood in my eye, history of CPSU, etc.) i never could stay on top of things, which is why i’ve never been one to say i’d join a reading group since i’m not contributing when it’s timely. but that cowbee list is damn good

        • Edie [it/its]@lemmygrad.ml
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          15 days ago

          History of the CPSU was a reading group here on lemmygrad

          For me a reading group helps me read, I have something that pushes me towards actually getting the reading done. But if it doesn’t work for you then that’s how it is. You can still use the reading group, as in when you do get to reading the chapter/book you can then go read the comments, even if you aren’t contributing. Reading other people’s thoughts on something, or them putting something in their own words, can help you understand things better.


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    • yunah-knowles@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      16 days ago

      there is no available IRL reading group for me, unfortunately, and i don’t anticipate i’ll be able to form one in the company i’m in. the best i have ever gotten was whatever political conversation i could make to some of my closest friends, but they’re not familiar or really open to reading theory (reasonable given whatever they have on their plate at the time) so i mostly try to get my knowledge up on my own so my explanations could be of utility. in any case i’m glad you’re affirming that writing out things will help, plus the hexbear guides should be useful and maybe i can just make an account there so i can comment (though my fear is lack of exposure/active users to see what i’ve written out if it comes in comments. however, there are also many megathreads/archived things i should make use of and read even before i ask for clarification.)

      you’re right i think about the LLM thing as well. thank you for sharing the relevant resources for me to use!!! :) much appreciated :3

  • Commiejones@lemmygrad.ml
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    15 days ago

    So “surplus value” is the profits after all the other costs including wages.

    So in dialectics a contradiction is a aspect of a thing that goes through quantitative changes that result in a qualitative change. Everything changes. All things stop being what they are at some time and the causes of the change from one thing into another is a contradiction. So with a star the primary contradiction is between gravity pulling the star together and the nuclear force pushing it out, the size of the star (material conditions) determines which force wins out and tells us if it becomes a white dwarf or a super nova.

    In capitalism the Contradiction is The tendency towards falling profits. The bourgeoisie need make profits but the competition and advancements in technology make their profits smaller over time. So that is where you get Monopoly capitalism. (this was already happening in Marx’s time) after Monopolies have taken over a state then you get Imperialism where the monopoly capitalist begin expanding their monopoly beyond the bounds of the nation they are in and exploiting the workers and lands of other nations using the state apparatus as cover.

    If there’s no reason to work outside of necessity, how is enough produced like it is in AES?

    The idea that socialism removes the drive to get things done is based on the misconception that under socialism everyone will just get whatever they want. Everyone will get what they need but everyone will also be expected to contribute what they can. People want more than the bare minimum of what they need. People naturally want to create and to make things better than they are.

    the luddites

    The Luddites were not petite bourgeoisie. The majority owned their own looms but they would be contracted to create cloth from yarn the contractor supplied. Like how many construction sub-contractors have their own tools and consider themselves “self employed” but they aren’t petite bourgeoisie they are just employees with a short term gig. A petite bourgeois is someone who owns the entire means of production, meaning they invest the capital to own the feed stock and tools to make a commodity that they set the price on. The Luddite movement was reactionary in that they wished to turn back time. They lacked class consciousness and organization to overthrow the bourgeoisie.

    • yunah-knowles@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      14 days ago

      another excellent explanation i can’t go point for point for but also what made me giggle is revisiting the third one i asked because yeah i mean that would only be a question of value if you had the silly capitalist logic where humans if they dont have profit motive will sit down and let their muscles atrophy… it;s a ridiculous question