ITT: americans circlejerking and thinking europe is a country and that the removed situation in for example portugal is the same as in bulgaria
We could extend it to Europeans talking about Africans, “Muslims” or anyone else. The picture would still be valid.
…okay, and how does that apply to the topic and the comment section about gypsies?
Curiously, the Romani came up when Congress was discussing the scope of the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The argument was if birthright citizenship was universal, we’d have to give it to them.
At the time, sounder minds prevailed.
Nobody likes migratory cultures. But it also appears nobody likes cultures too different from their own. And once we start cutting out ones we think are too alien, we rapidly move towards cutting into those who worship on the wrong day.
If you want a culture to stop migrating, maybe facilitate their access to homes? I’ve yet to encounter a culture that doesn’t like comfort and convenience.
America has always had racism baked in at the state level (read on the appeasement of slave states, massive fundamental mistake). In modern day this manifests in strong internalized and institutional racism that affects everyone, hence why there’s so much discussion about it.
However, I think the USA is one of the better countries in terms of interpersonal racism. The diversity of the US means that nearly everyone interacts with multiple races/cultures on a daily basis. The country is steadily becoming more diverse (the USA will be flipped to a minority-majority by 2045) so there’s just no practical way to avoid it.
Contrast this with most other countries who don’t necessarily have foundational racism but have had a homogeneous identity nearly forever. For some, broad discussion on diversity and demographics is completely novel in the last few decades; there’s a hypersensitivity at the individual level that hasn’t adapted yet.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen some of the most shocking unacknowledged prejudice outside of the US (some EU and strongly in Asia). Like “This waiter is too brown” and “[Turks, Romani, Indians] aren’t real people” said in total earnest. I’m sure I could hear similar things in obscure parts of Northern Idaho, but I didn’t expect it in major cities in developed countries.
This is gonna cause some grump.
Both the EU and America have a race problem but I dunno from my perspective racism in Europe is so much more common and unchallenged. I think a lot of people have an inflated view of American racism cause they talk so often about it. I also don’t think the racism is the same, a lot of Europeans seem more racist about cultural differences than just skin color where Americans seem more skin deep racists.
I dunno just my opinion though.
I also think these parts of the world are the most culturally diverse so they talk about it but other parts of the world are SOOOO much more racist it isn’t even a comparison.
A friend of mine in South America was talking about it the other day. She was saying that while racism does exist where she lives, it’s treated and received with significantly less violence. She heard about racial tensions in America, and the crimes committed, and she was shocked. To her knowledge, that had never happened where she lives.
I don’t know enough about her local history to make any kind of argument, so I just let it go. But it did seem strange to me.
I read that as South Africa and I was like WTF
Americans tend to sensationalize anything so if someone says “I don’t like music about drug dealing and shooting people,” there is a good chunk of folks who would immediately say (unironically) that said person is racist against black people.
You’re not wrong. Americans have an obsession with skin colour and thinks that is what divides humanity. I remember a screenshot post of a black user asking, and to paraphrase: “remove poc’s what how would white people divide themselves?” The user is likely someone from North America and had never gone to Europe, or know its history, to see how divided Europeans are, even before the large immigration from outside the continent.
The western world by far contains the least racist cultures on the planet. At least presently. It’s just more visible especially to people in the western world
As a European, this is very true. Anti-romani sentiment is very widespread and often overlooked when talking about xenophobia.
Idk, it more or less disappeared around here once they started allowing their children to go to school and get jobs once they grow up.
Turns out people care more about crime than skin color most of the time. I literally couldn’t tell you if there are any Romani living near me anymore because nobody has placed a curse on me after demanding money for a fortune telling I didn’t ask for and I haven’t heard of massive theft sprees in over a decade.
Integration is usually a two-way street. They wouldn’t have cooperated if the local authorities wouldn’t have done their best to earn their trust, considering all the shit that kept happening in some countries until the 90s and early 00s. So whatever your country is, they probably had some better ideas than e.g. Slovakia .
Another European, I encounter very little anti Romani sentiments in my daily life. There are travelers here and there are prejudices, but active hate is much more directed at refugees.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
imagine saying that right after claiming there is little anti-romani racism
Yeah, because being upset that someone is blasting music until 4AM EVERY DAY is racist.
“I’m not racist, it’s just that their culture is garbage and everyone hates them”
Not OP but removed music is generally considered positively not negatively I thought - I’m not sure why there is an assumption they’re saying their culture is garbage - I read it as the reverse
That’s what I meant
I don’t have an answer but, it’s not uncommon for a minority group’s music to be cherished and even coopted by the same people who hold racist sentiments toward them. It can be a bridge toward racial harmony too, no doubt. But as an American hearing someone say they like a minority group’s music and then nothing beyond that does feel sus and I’m sure the Europeans can guess why!
I feel like you might be reading “and then nothing beyond that”. I’m English, and I love to talk to other people about their cultures and backgrounds (and will happily talk to them about English folk customs and the differences between different British regions in return), but I find that, as a general rule, the only parts of someone else’s culture that they can easily share with you are food and music.
“but i like the caricature of the dancing g****, they seem so happy and carefree”
Hearing that “I am not racist…” opener is usually a signal that someone is about to share some absolutely unhinged point of view.
They didn’t say there is very little anti-romani racism, they said they didn’t encounter it in their daily life very often. That’s generally how it works, you don’t tend to run into racism as often when you’re not the target.
Quite right. I don’t run into a lot of anti-aboriginal racism in Australia, but boy howdy does it exist.
And I do run into some. Had an operation at a hospital once and shared a room post-op with a guy who was a cheery companion for a little while then started spewing the most ridiculous shit about First Nations people I’d heard outside a One Nation forum.
I then calmly asked him to explain every point and dissected his bullshit like a faeces expert studying a coprolite. Really bothered him. Hehehe.
Imagine the day Lemmy will be able to read a sentence correctly and not immediately rush to bad faith interpretations. Frankly this post made me lose hope to ever have an interesting discussion here.
There wouldn’t need to be a lifting of general opinion if there wasn’t a widespread negative opinion. Of a race. You know, like racism.
Ya dunce.
Learn to read before commenting. You’re just validating my take.
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???
I didn’t mean it that way. There’s a couple of famous musicians who really make the general consensus about travelers mainly positive.
Furthermore like I said there’s more many people that have verbalized something anti-zigian in my presence, and I’ve been here a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Romani_sentiment
Scroll to “contemporary antiziganism.”
I only said that I think generally in my country there isn’t a staunch common hatred against them. I didn’t deny that there is any.
People take my words to mean something completely different then I intended.
Sometimes I wonder how much hate is prevented or deferred by America’s identity as an immigrant nation and pride in that fact, compared to other western places like Europe.
We do still have “Illegals are coming to take your job” economic anxiety propaganda on the right.
Urban areas where people of different backgrounds live and work together tend to be less racist, rural homogeneous areas tend to be more so.
Europe when muslim immigrants
Super Space Hitler.jpg
I think that a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others. There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on. The problem is not immigration itself, but the causes (neocolonialism).
The problem is that right-wing populists make a career on promising solving problem they caused themselves. The liberal multicultural utopia cant sustain itself, and doesnt have any long-term benefits to the humanity or a particular society.
There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on.
I have to disagree with you entirely.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle.
Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
Culture is blood and soil.
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza.
We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.)
We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet.
We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science.
We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows.
I will structure my answers accordingly to the spaces. If I missed something you can point it out, I’d like to not reduct the discussion to one specific issue , thus making the argument kinda pointless. Also my level of english is kinda bad, so I might make no sense sometimes or repeat some statements.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle. Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
What I meant is rather that some societies mainly are separated by language, interests and culture. And I did not mean ethnic nationalism, it is absurd thing. And I was not saying local culture should have a legal privilege. Also there is no such thing as presistent culture and language, new languages appear, older disappear. Cultures merge and emerge, but when we are talking about having state without any kinda local dominant culture and societal rules that everyone just grew with, it is unsustainable and unrealistic to happen, because people really often just don’t want to live in foreign countries, people really like living among people they some common things like history, language or relatives. I did not mean that immigration being big factor yet you cant ignore it as well, because eventually it does influence the culture a lot. My message was critique of the liberal idea of multi-cultural state, where there is dominance of local culture(s). Why im against of this idea is because it destroys the pluralism of different cultures meaning destroys diversity of mindsets, that is actually a important thing for humanity in terms of progress. Also what you pointed out is the consequence of religious influence on the cultures. Christianity and any other abrahamic religions actually caused lots of censorship, and added useless complexities into many european and southern cultures, including contributing a lot to the gender inequality. Not to say that that’s the only reason, the patriarchy started much sooner than the rise of monoteism and abrahamic religions , but lots of thing we see as chattelization, misoginy etc. originates from religious doctrines. Im not against transformation of societies into more tolerant, genderly equal, hierarchless societies(India reference?). It is just that multi-cultural heaven is not happening (if the multi-culture means state without any majority culture(s))
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
I have no idea about US. Im from eastern Europe. I dont even exactly know what culture war is :/ .
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
I actually agree with it. but also *direct democracy, and *socialism . But also I think nation can decide itself whether they want to integrate the migrants or give autonomy. For example in Estonia we have lots of russians from USSR , who migrated because there were much better living conditions than in RSFSR, and i used to live in russian neighborhoods and even ghettos. And integrating russian schools into estonian was actually one of the best things in terms of integrating them, and making children learn estonian on a near-native level. This helped decline the segregation and isolation of russians from estonian society. . But at the same time we have a great minority called Võro and Seto, who are endangered languages-cultures. They need absolutely opposite approach, they need more autonomy and deserve state-funding for võro-seto education, translation of books, programs etc. This is kinda thing I mean when I say “a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others.”
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza. We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.) We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet. We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science. We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
Based? Except im against building new religious building or helping preserve religions, because they harmed humanity a lot. Im not against theistic views though, the theory that there might be some creature that made everything we see, can totally exist. It is not scientifically provable, but it doesn’t force people to hate themselves for being humans in a doctrine manner
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows. I generally agree with this. You probably just have different US-centered perspective
“We can have a society shaped by the will of the people rather than a handful of oligarchs”
We can(?), but we don’t and won’t. It’s like you and I live in a different world, I don’t have any idea where what you describe exists or when it existed.
Youre describing an American ideal that I’ve never seen. We’ve been xenophobic from 1776 onward. It’s like you have the generic G-rated version of America down, but not anything resembling the real America that I’ve lived in.
MLK for example; he is held to high esteem in USA today, but he accomplished little compared to, say, The Black Panthers, who armed themselves with shotguns and followed police on patrol. THAT is why the civil rights movement progressed. This is the will of the people in action. Every right we’ve gained has been in spite of our political system since at least the 1950s.
Any counter examples would be appreciated. But this is the America that I am from, this is what works
https://www.pushblack.us/news/60s-panthers-policed-police-legacy-continues-today
“we’ve been xenophobic” only if you identify america as the land populated solely by the white male capitalist. Many minorities understand america can be badass if the ethnic majority and then the working class just got their shit together. I’m speaking as one of those minorities. The working class can never earn their fair share as long as the ethnic majority continues to hate minorities.
I will agree that capitalist white men in america are complacent and apathetic towards the plight of minorities. That part of america keeps the good parts of america from shining.
I assume that in your theoretical city of multiple religions, LGBT people have already been eliminated, right? Otherwise it’s not compatible with Islam, Christianity or Judaism at the very least and while the majority of Christians have had their beliefs washed down, Muslims are NOT going to take such bullshit and they WILL demand LGBT people to receive corporeal punishment at the very least, but ideally death penalty.
And why should they not be allowed? That’s part of their faith, their culture. We consider murder and stealing illegal and immoral - they feel about the same way about LGBT, alcohol and pork (in addition to murder and stealing, but of course murder of infidels is usually okay in most religions). Are we not supposed to respect their culture if they live with us?
There is nothing wrong
Says who? Why can there be nothing wrong? Why is 0.000000000000001% wrong too much for you? Why are you so intolerant of any potential moral question about the subject matter? Where do you derive this logic from? Why is it completely free from any amount of criticism? Zero criticism is allowed, according to “there is nothing wrong” logic. “Nothing” is doing a lot of work for that logic, and it demands that any amount of criticism should not be tolerated or entertained. It’s a major fallacy, in my opinion.
My uncle is a completely legal mexican immigrant. My aunt makes killer food. If he were to move to Europe, why is that unsustainable for them? The US was built on mass migration.Every immigration-related moral failure of the US wasn’t because it accepted immigrants, but because it rejected them. This is generation after generation here. Why is Europe incapable of solving it?
Maybe Europe is incapable of solving these issues. But if that’s true, then why is that acceptable to Europeans? If the problem is fundamental to the infrastructure of society itself, why should responsibility fall on immigrants to solve it rather than the society that calls itself liberal univeralist? You can’t just blame the right wing. It’s a societal issue as a whole if it just can’t work.
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I’m American, but my grandma was a 1st generation immigrant. She always threatened to “sell [me] to the gypsies” if I didn’t behave. I didn’t have any idea what a “removed” was! There was no context for a 4 year old in the States. Hell, I didn’t even know it was a slur until I was in my twenties. That was pretty gross, Gram. Boomers gonna Boom, though, I guess.
……wait that’s a slur?
All labels are slurs now, except for the word “label”. I think that’s still okay (and do look at Wikipedia’s list of ethnic slurs, you say racist stuff every day without knowing!
"this word is Algongquin for ‘friend’
SLUR HOW DARE YOU
I won’t repeat the “Algongquin word for ‘friend’” because… you know. Because everything is stupid now
It is on Wikipedia’s “List of Ethnic Slurs” and I remember it suddenly being kind of a big deal out of nowhere in the mid 2010’s (not it being on the list, just in general on the corners of the internet I inhabited at the time). Like, my wife watched a lot of Kathleen Lights videos on YouTube at the time, and she had a sign in her background that said something like “removed soul” and she got backlash from her viewers.
I don’t know that anybody in my daily life even now, here in Metro Detroit, considers it one or uses it as one. I know I don’t use it anymore, really besides this comment chain. There are tons of immigrants from all over around here, I definitely don’t want to offend anyone. I will hear it from time to time, in a general way to refer to people who are or want to be kind of nomads. Like, a positive thing. Idk, I still don’t say it anymore.
I was 30 years old before I learned that word’s a slur
When i was little i though a “Zingaro” (removed) was someone poor or like someone who didn’t dress up well due to my mother saying stuff like “Don’t use X clothing like that, you look like a removed”
It’s not necessarily a slur, depending on who you are using it to refer to. There are some communities who refer to themselves that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*removed*,_Roma_and_Traveller
Same for me, but Germany. I thought, “Zigeuner” (removed) meant that someone had no address because they would live in trailers and would move from place to place. Which sounded very cool and I wished, I could do that, too.
I did not understand, however, why one should not trust them.
Turns out, it’s just racism.
I encountered Romani a few times when I was living in Germany. It was not a positive impression. But even then I was well aware of how being historically marginalized breeds poverty and crime.
So ya don’t like dags?
I don’t know what that is, but it sounds like a slur. I don’t have any problem with Romani, only individuals who engage in antisocial behavior, same as anyone else.
‘sounds like a slur’
this used to be called a colloquialism or abbreviation for the sake of brevity back in the day.
Putting aside the fact that they’re not the same thing, how is “colloquialism” or “abbreviation” more brief than “slur”?
Oh, dogs! Sure, I like dogs!
I remember my grandfather in the 90s warning me not to go to close to the “wagon” (a trailer) of “the gypsies” because they “steal children”. I actually wound up over there when I adventured out alone from the camping place. The woman was cutting her husband’s hair and it was the first time I had seen a man with pretty, long, shiny black hair, I was fascinated. They were friendly but “talked weird” (they had an accent). I never understood the hate… because obviously, they didn’t steal me away… but my grandfathers generation left that narrative behind for my parents and my generation to pick up and continue. I whish it could have died with him.
Every reddit euro sub in a nutshell
Some screenshots of (auto-translated) Reddit comments from r/Slovakia. I don’t know if usernames and profile pictures would count as doxing, so I removed them.
Yeah, that sums it up pretty well. Though, tbf in some european subs the comments would be like 90% “deleted comment”.
Holy shit. Positive karma and everything.
Must be nice to be Slovakian, I got banned from Reddit for hating on Joe Biden. I thought he was senile.
Meanwhile, he was senile
But so is Trump, but the media was afraid to call that out, since they didn’t want to lose interview opportunities with him.
But imagine the potential in “Dementia Don” and caricatures of him asking ChatGPT to generate him a clock during a dementia test.
Yes. But I didn’t get banned for saying Trump is deranged, that is allowed. However, only one opinion was approved by Reddit mods. Because they’re stupid.
Literally happened yesterday to me…
I can’t speak to Europe, but contrasting the milquetoast euphemism “American racial tensions” against a picture of Hitler seems to be going really easy on the United States.
The point is to whitewash America’s racism, it’s okay because the Europeans also are a bit racist. Don’t try to compare how similar or different it is, that would destroy their take.
Idk, ask a European about Muslims and all of a sudden I’m talking to my grandparents.
Read the Koran, trust
or, listen to some Imams from today. Pick any Islamic State Imam and listen to them. It won’t take long
(they even speak English you can find their mosque videos on Youtube, pick one)
Ask an American about Obama and see how welcoming of Muslims they are. (Yes Obama is not Muslim, that’s the point)
Hashtagnotalleuropeans
“A bit” is an understatement. Europe is just as bad.
Yes and? That’s missing the point and falling directly into what the OP wants
Can’t let OP get away with pointing out racism
LMAO, there’s literally someone in this thread JAQing off trying to defend anti-Romani racism. Even on reddit, it usually takes longer for someone to start defending American racism.
As an American of non-European descent living in the Netherlands, I’m amused at the blank stares I receive when I ask people about where they think the xenophobic, self-serving, and bigoted attitudes that pervade “White America” came from.
Ireland?
those dammed Irish
Americans really mad about euro calling them out huh.
European countries aren’t all the same
When it comes to general opinions of Romani/gypsies I think all European countries are pretty united.
Netherlands may be an outlier but nobody cares about Roma/Sinti/travellers/gypsies. Here people are racist against Maroccans, Turks and Muslims generally
cmon man, compare the percentage of gipsies in holland and romania/slovakia/hungary
That’s actually not really helping your argument, if you compare it to the statistics of anti-immigrant sentiments vs actual percentage of immigrants. In most cases, the areas with the lowest amount of immigrants have the highest amount of anti-immigrant sentiments. For example in Germany, you can literally see it on the east-west divide on the map (as with many things). I wouldn’t be surprised if it were similar in the Netherlands, that rural areas are more prone to anti-immigrant stances.
The issues in the countries you’ve mentioned, are usually based on historical and socioeconomic issues, that came up over time. And some countries didn’t exactly do well to get Roma people to trust them, like e.g. Slovakia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._C._vs._Slovakia
And that is besides the fact that it’s hard to get hard numbers on Roma people, since there are also those who try to hide their origins . You could have a Roma person in your neighbourhood and not even realize.
not sure how did you wash your immigrant bs into this. these folk were here in the last 500 years. they dont count as immigrants anymore. mid and eastern eu failed to integrate, cause there are too many of them (to be honest neither of the parties tried). that is it.
I think Europe is at least united in a hatred for Muslims, can’t just let people exist in peace, y’know?
U.S. states aren’t all the same either
That’s why I said it
Let’s imagine, purely hypothetically, that there’s a minority that has big issues integrating into host society and that some aspects of their culture are not compatible with laws and local way of living.
Is it possible to talk about it in a non-racist way? If yes, how should it be done? Or are we simply required to pretend the issue doesn’t exist?
Again, purely hypothetically.
“…there is living amongst us a non-German, foreign race, unwilling and unable to sacrifice its racial characteristics, to deny its feeling, thinking and striving, and which none the less possesses all the political rights that we ourselves have.”
It’s an odd hypothetical which posits the existence of a group that took the same role that the Jews did for Hitler - unable to assimilate because of cultural incompatibility, lack of loyalty to their nation-state, and this being true as a result of a self-isolation of the members of that community.
Or perhaps its a cheap shot to appeal to literal Nazis. How about the contemporary far-right?
“The Islamic culture is inferior to our Western culture… Mass immigration from Islamic countries means more crime, more terror, more anti-Semitism, and less freedom and democracy. Integration is impossible because Islam is not just a religion, but a totalitarian political ideology.”
It’s almost as if framing the problem as “the minority has big issues integrating” is in itself a kind of dogwhistle, a poisoning the well toward a racist explanation and therefore racist solution.
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Ok, I will take that as a “no”. In your opinion there’s no way to talk about cultural differences that’s not literally fascism. Thanks.
What are these “cultural differences” that you can’t have a conversation about? Would you care to give us some of your opinions?
Swiss people being way more strict about quiet-hours laws than most other countries. Some people think it’s important to respect that and any immigrants should adapt to those laws, even if in their home countries they are not obeyed as strictly. Good thing I know it’s fascism now.
There’s nothing wrong with having quiet-hours laws and enforcing them. The problem is when the criticism is framed in terms of groups by ethnic or national identity. Either the violations should be enforced, as with any other rule/law, or perhaps there could be some kind of policy change. All of that is worth talking about. My objection is to the idea that its appropriate to frame the problem in essentializing and racialized language. Suppose I have a dispute with my Jewish neighbor. He loves to grill his kosher meat every Saturday with his family. I don’t like the smell. Here is one way to frame this dispute: “My neighbor has a custom of grilling meat on Saturdays, but I don’t like it because the smell wafts into my house and I’m vegan.” Here is another “My JEW neighbor grills his JEW meat every Saturday because Jewish culture is just murderous and doesn’t care about animals like I and my culture do. He is such a piece of shit asshole, just like all of THOSE people.”
Which one sounds like a fair way to frame a discussion about a conflict between two people? Now obviously your initial comment didn’t say anything overtly racist like in my example, which is very extreme. But you framed it as a conflict between some anomalous THEM and the ‘local’ culture, a.k.a., US. The problem is subtler, but its the same problem.
Haha my comment got removed by /u/[email protected] because apparently noticing that different countries have different customs regarding quiet-hours is racist 😂 Looks like someone never traveled to Spain.
Censorship on lemmy is reaching new levels.
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Always little hitlers in the comments. Say “romani” and watch you appear like roaches
Yea sure I’m the roach, not the guy in prison with a kid that has an alcohol addiction at age 12
As if every restaurant server in America who’s had to deal with white European tourists trying their damndest to get around our alcohol laws so their kids can have beer or wine with dinner are lying.
OP’s meme is absolutely true. This is an American boomer grandparent rant about black people with a single word substitution.
It’s almost as if framing the problem as “the minority has big issues integrating” is in itself a kind of dogwhistle, a poisoning the well toward a racist explanation and therefore racist solution.
So you confirm there is no place for debate because some people cry racism before even seeing any argument. The propaganda post working its wonders here: any criticism makes you a Nazi.
When someone’s using a Nazi strategy to talk about a Nazi talking point, it’s kinda hard not to notice a pattern and point it out.
Why are you mad people are pointing out that phrasing is making it harder to talk about racism? Do you not like it when people talk about racism or say things are racist? Why is that?
Why are you mad people are pointing out that phrasing is making it harder to talk about racism?
I specifically asked what phrasing would be ok and the other guy started quoting Hitler at me. I really don’t know how you can still claim there’s a room for debate and people just notice patterns. Everyone is just trying to outleft everyone else. “You can’t say that cultural differences are preventing social integration, that’s racist!”, “OMG, you said ‘social integration’, that’s racist!”. It’s hilarious to watch.
Except that they didn’t say anything racist and just wanted to start a discussion. If you cannot see the difference between an honest debate and literal genocide, maybe you need glasses?
The Godwin point being a meme doesn’t mean drifting immediately to Nazism is a valid way of debating.You have a real hard time with reading comprehension don’t you
What makes you think that people should integrate into your society instead of the other way around? What makes you think geographical areas must determine cultural norms?
These are rhetorical questions, I don’t want a response. I want you to think about how racist you’re being.
We can take an example. Female genital mutilation. Why do I think muslim west Africans moving to my country should stop female genital mutilation in my country instead of my culture starting practicing female genital mutilation? That’s quite clear. I think it’s an immoral practice. Doesn’t matter which culture is doing it. Not every cultural difference is a neutral thing. My culture for sure also has negative traits in it. I would also condemn child marriage, purity culture, strict family patriarchy, and clan honor culture. If someone is from a culture that sees gay people as an abomination to god I would condemn that as well.
Did you just wanna talk about genital mutilation? Nobody brought that up.
I think it’s a good example because I believe the entirety of Lemmy can agree that that specific cultural tradition is a bad one, thus proving that not every cultural difference is good. No amount of historical context can justify it.
So by that logic, Mexico City locals have no right to expect anyone to adapt to them? Plenty of people there are annoyed at foreigners who move in, never bother learning Spanish, and act like the neighborhood should work around them. Most people would call that a fair complaint. And before you say it’s just about money, picture a broke backpacker doing the exact same thing. Same complaint, right?
If that’s fair, then expecting newcomers to adapt isn’t racist in itself. The real debate is about what’s reasonable to expect, not whether it’s allowed.These are rhetorical questions, I don’t want a response. I want you to think about how consistent you’re being.
Lmao yes exactly, you know the Spanish stole mexico city right? But we should stop anyone from speaking other languages there, sure. No fucks given for the indigenous cultures that persist to this day
Fucking racist morons, the lot of you
Yeah, that extremist position is not even worth addressing. According to it recognizing any cultural differences is racist in itself. Japanese person telling to you take off your shoes? Racist. Swiss neighbor telling you to turn down your TV after 22:00? Racist.
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Have you tried addressing the issues without generalising their entire culture based on the behaviour of one single group or ignoring the entire history that might explain how it came to this? The social workers certainly seem to manage to do just that.
Have you tried
I haven’t tried anything yet, I’m just asking.
addressing the issues without generalising their entire culture based on the behaviour of one single group
I don’t understand this part. Let’s say I’m (hypothetically) talking about difference in how they dress and that the minority simply dresses differently. Is saying “people from culture X traditionally wear Y” OK? Of course not every single person from culture X will wear Y but there are cultures that traditionally dress differently, right? Is that generalization or description of a culture?
ignoring the entire history that might explain how it came to this
So if someone provides historical context for behavior they are criticizing it’s not racist? Not sure if that’s enough. What if someone says “minority X was marginalized by the government for so long they are uneducated and more likely to commit crimes now”. Would that be OK?
I haven’t tried anything yet, I’m just asking.
Sure you are.
I don’t understand this part. Let’s say I’m (hypothetically) talking about difference in how they dress and that the minority simply dresses differently. Is saying “people from culture X traditionally wear Y” OK? Of course not every single person from culture X will wear Y but there are cultures that traditionally dress differently, right? Is that generalization or description of a culture?
Saying “people traditionally wear x” is a whole lot different than saying “they’re all criminals”. You’re conflating a cultural practice with a claim about criminal behaviour. Seems like a very dishonest argument, tbh.
So if someone provides historical context for behavior they are criticizing it’s not racist? Not sure if that’s enough. What if someone says “minority X was marginalized by the government for so long they are uneducated and more likely to commit crimes now”. Would that be OK?
You’re missing the point. There are a lot of contextual things that need to be considered, historical context is one of them. Socioeconomic is a different one, which might be based on historical context. It doesn’t mean you have to provide that every time you address some issue.
It doesn’t even matter which group it is, because having to live with marginalisation, exclusion, poverty, lack of access to education or other socioeconomic conditions are associated with a greater exposure to conditions associated with crime. That’s not unique to a particular group. You’ll see that in a lot of minorities who get treated like second-class humans.
In case of the Romani, there are still people around who remember the mistreatment they received from the respective governments. For example, Slovakia forcibly sterilised Romani women well into the 90s, with some cases being documented even until the 2000s. That memory is still alive, and can explain why some Roma distrust government agencies. If i come to your house and kill your dog, you wouldn’t want me around either…
Yes, there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful, but those are also challenged by Roma themselves. There are Romani organisations out there who fight for change in those communities. Those actually do ask the question why these practices occur, how widespread they actually are and what can be reasonably done to reduce that from happening. That’s a whole lot more useful than some performative bullshit talk about “their culture”.
So, TL;DR would be “treat the reason for the issue, not the ethnicity of the people having it”.
EDIT: And it seems some people do not understand nuance, and keep on dogwhistling
Yes, there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful, but those are also challenged by Roma themselves. There are Romani organisations out there who fight for change in those communities. Those actually do ask the question why these practices occur, how widespread they actually are and what can be reasonably done to reduce that from happening. That’s a whole lot more useful than some performative bullshit talk about “their culture”.
Why so aggressive? Why do you assume that I wanted to say anything else than “there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful”?
Look at other comments. Many people here think that expecting Roma communities to change their behavior is racist in itself. Why would you assume everyone is to the right of you when you’re clearly to the right of many people on lemmy?
Yes, there are practices among some Roma communities that are harmful, but those are also challenged by Roma themselves. There are Romani organisations out there who fight for change in those communities. Those actually do ask the question why these practices occur, how widespread they actually are and what can be reasonably done to reduce that from happening
So you basically admit that there are problematic behavior in some Romani groups, and that’s (one of) the reason for the integration difficulty. So much so that Romani people themselves are trying to change it.
Contrary to most comments here crying racism, you won’t find many commenters here saying it’s the Romani ethnicity that’s the issue, it’s the behavior that has gotten them a bad reputation.Yes, it’s fanny how people just use codewords and claim that everyone speaking normally is straight out racist.
“No, Roma culture is not preventing social integration, that’s racist thing to say! Some… practices among… some Roma… communities are… harmful. (ufff, racism avoided)”
You came up with some vague “hypotheticals”, kept throwing more “hypothetical claims” around and now you pretend like you “won” some discussion by treating my explanation as a concession. That is exactly the kind of dishonest argumentative pattern i’m talking about.
Here’s some dude who shared some of the usual comments that come up in many European reddit subs, once the word “roma” is mentioned: https://piefed.social/post/2439917#comment_13134574
Maybe that’ll help you to understand why your “hypothetical” nonsense sounds like a bunch of dogwhistles.
Yes, me asking generally about language used when discussing social integration is the issue, not you imagining what people are really trying to say. And of course other people saying racist stuff means that everyone is racist. I take personal responsibility for all racist comments on reddit, no issues on my side here.
Yeah, I might start my exploring why the laws of the place developed in a way that was strictly incompatible with the culture of groups of people who live there, and why the laws perhaps cannot be adapted to bend to the needs of people instead of the other way around.
Oh, so you think it was wrong for Spain to raise minimum age to get married to 16 years? They should have left it at 14? Even though Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended raising it? Is UN racist now? They should lower the age again so people from some minority groups can get back to marrying their kids at 14?
You’re right, it’s very curious why the laws in Europe developed in a way that don’t let kids to get married. Why can’t they bend those rules? Is it because of racism?
“Integrating into local culture” is a non-issue; their culture is local culture. Any concrete problems (which there are, to be clear) need to be addressed as such, not as a duty to conform to the whims of the majority, before you can get anything done.
More practically, though, the problem with that framing is that places where Roma aren’t rendered second class citizens don’t, in fact, have that problem. America in particular renders the culture explanation completely untenable. You should really start here.
“Integrating into local culture” is a non-issue;
That’s an interesting idea. So you think participating in public education and learning local language for example is a “non-issue”? I think current situation in Sweden shows how important it is. Learning language is crucial to later job opportunities. No to mention respect for the law. Different cultures tolerate different behaviors and adapting to that is a matter of respect for your neighbors, not “conforming to their whims”.
So you think participating in public education and learning local language for example is a “non-issue”?
Yes I do, more or less. Children have the right to an education, but as long as it’s up to a minimum standard I don’t care very much who gives it, and as for the local language, well, up to them really but I strongly doubt that, for example, Hungarian Roma can’t speak Hungarian as a rule.
I think current situation in Sweden shows how important it is.
The only thing Sweden is showing in 2026 is what a country where the fascists are winning looks like.
Different cultures tolerate different behaviors and adapting to that is a matter of respect for your neighbors, not “conforming to their whims”.
Sure, some amount of adaptation is necessary, but that goes both ways. Roma communities have frankly seen nothing but misery from their neighbors, so suddenly expecting “respect” is both unrealistic and frankly arrogant. As I said and you ignored, stop putting them in ghettos first.
Sure, some amount of adaptation is necessary
Racist!
But seriously, I didn’t even mention Roma. Those are universal issues that affect British people in Spain the same way they affect Polish people in Switzerland. Saying that it’s not important to learn local language shows how out of touch you are. Kids don’t decide those things on their own. If parents don’t make sure they learn the language they will have hugely limited opportunities when they grow up and risk social exclusion. This is another way ghettos form you’re totally oblivious to.
Social Democrats governed in Sweden for the last decade and as a result of their policies “Almost one in four 15-year-olds who completed the PISA international survey in 2022 did not achieve the lowest proficiency level on the reading scale for continued learning.”. This didn’t happen because fascists won last elections. It’s because people like you who don’t understand how reality works promote their failed understanding of what “tolerance” is.
Kids don’t decide those things on their own. If parents don’t make sure they learn the language they will have hugely limited opportunities when they grow up and risk social exclusion.
Kids learn their host country’s language basically by default, so this is a non-issue. Language education is by and large an adult problem.
This didn’t happen because fascists won last elections. It’s because people like you who don’t understand how reality works promote their failed understanding of what “tolerance” is.
Your association of me with the Social Democrats with tolerance with bad education policy is such an intricate web of non-sequiturs that I have no idea what you’re talking about. Why should this be relevant to the conversation?
This is another way ghettos form you’re totally oblivious to.
I’m gonna need a source on that, but also the kind of ghettos relevant here (aka the kind Europeans keep putting Roma) in is created by social ostracization and state policy.
I’m gonna need a source on that
You need a source about how lack of education and basic language skills limits job opportunities and causes social exclusion? Gee, I don’t know if I can find any. Give me couple of days for an in depth research. I’ll get back to you.
The question is making category. You think that they is one people and another, one legit and one not. This is a not facts, this a nationalist point of view. So yes, it is racist.
People that decide collectively the way they are living is democracy. One way of living that has to be enforce to everyone is supremacism. Is fun that you think that way about the romani, because those culture presence is way older in their territories that every States in Europe. So if you think that the first have the right to decide, European States Shall adapt to Romani People.
PS: it’s not a coincidence that nazi was antisemitic and antitziganist. Those cultures presence demonstrate that the nationality is social construct, and not a “biological truth”.
Murikan talking about their country
Damn, can’t take a joke?
