Is it simply over-correcting in response to western anti-communist propaganda? I’d like to think it’s simply memeing for memes sake, but it feels too genuine.

  • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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    3 months ago

    I’d like to remind you that an absolute unit of Polish industry was piece by piece moved to USSR. Which I already told you about earlier IIRC including list of moved heavy industries.

    Anyone claiming Soviet invested in Poland should compare the amount of German war reparations that Soviet took over that should’ve been paid to Poland vs the “investments” made by the USSR.

    A trade agreement concluded with the Soviet Union early in 1948 had ensured the importation of investment goods to the value of £112,000,000. In general, trade with the Soviet Union had risen from 0.4 per cent in 1938 to 21.5 per cent in 1948; and trade with her and the other countries of planned economy now accounted for over a third (37.8 per cent) of [the Polish People’s Republic’s] total foreign trade

    Thank you for proving my point that we were forced to “trade” with the USSR. Subservient, colonized trade. For example, the USSR forced Poland to invest in shipbuilding (that we had to loan for) with a quota of ships to be traded for, for which of course the payment was transfer rubles managed by the USSR empire in their centralized bank - forcing inter-USSR trade by the prices made by the USSR. (Btw transfer rubles were also a part of Polish financial problems after 1990, see https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afera_rublowa#%3A~%3Atext=Afera+rublowa+–+Wikipedia%2C+wolna+encyklopedia)

    Anywho, by the 1980 the USSR, under prices that they enforced, Poland owed USSR 4 billion transfer roubles and was demanded to repay that in USD at the value of 7.3 billion USD.

    The next most important items were several large chemical factories. Pre-war Poland had had no chemical industry

    Poland was a free country since 1918. Before that it was conquered by Russia, Germany and Austria for 123 years. In the 20 years of not being a colony and exploited by those 3 countries, Poland has managed to kickstart it’s own chemical industry, to be top of the class in post WW1 Europe - see example https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Zakładów_Azotowych_w_Tarnowie-Mościcach

    If your source claims that Poland had no chemical industry, you can use that source as a kindling.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      Poland trading with other socialist countries during its socialist period makes sense, no? Poland depended quite heavily on the USSR and was integrated into socialist trade, which worked remarkably well for developing Poland. As you point out, Poland is getting actually colonized by the west right now. Poland’s nationalists have historically been strong, and now they have essentially purged all opposition.

      • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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        3 months ago

        I need to ask something off topic:

        You’re getting insta downvoted (maybe me too, or you’re downvoting me, don’t care).

        Dear lurker, care to join?

        Poland depended quite heavily on the USSR and was integrated into socialist trade, which worked remarkably well for developing Poland

        I dismissed the only source you gave for that by pointing the author clearly didn’t know what they were talking about “Poland had no chemical industry”.

        I gave Polish sources that show the numbers that it did not work well for Poland development. I told you about the transfer rubles, that the USSR was dictating the prices of good to be paid in those and requiring them paid back in the USD.

        I told you (with sources) you how the USSR forced Poland to take foreign loans during 1970 and 1980, that later had to be repaid after Poland was allowed to leave USSR and that it was the reason we had to privatize shitton of stuff and had galloping inflation in the early 90s (Poland and the IMF).

        I listed somewhere in the topic list of heavy industries stolen by the USSR just after the war.

        We compared poverty rates, GDP per capita in PPP all in favour of Poland not being an occupied country.

        I linked to Polish protests and general strikes against USSR forcing Poland into food poverty in the 1980s.

        And yet you still claim that USSR occupation was good for the Poland and Polish people financially.

        Can you imagine an argument that would convince you that you’re wrong? What would that argument be?

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          I gave you more than just those sources, it’s like you forgot that we had an entire conversation days ago. The USSR was not colonizing Poland, and socialism worked dramatically well for Poland. Of course, it wasn’t perfect, but at the same time it doesn’t mean abandoning socialism was the correct move.

          I gave you sources on instability of growth, on skyrocketing poverty rates, on real industrial development, and more. You’re taking the wording of Poland having “no” chemical industry in the context of a broader point on development of industry, which Poland was lagging behind in prior to socialism, as an excuse to dismiss the entire point.

          Can you imagine an argument that would convince you that you’re wrong? What would that argument be?

          If you were willing to actually read my points instead of brushing them away and spiraling into endless tangents then perhaps I would be able to be swayed by you. However, on the things we can both agree on as fact, we utterly disagree on interpretation.

          • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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            3 months ago

            ect, but at the same time it doesn’t mean abandoning socialism was the correct move.

            The point I made was that USSR (who happened to be pretending to be socialist) SUCKED for Poland and freeing itself from USSR was good for Poland (even though now were stuck with the capitalism).

            I gave you sources on instability of growth, on skyrocketing poverty rates, on real industrial development , and more. You’re taking the wording of Poland having “no” chemical industry in the context of a broader point on development of industry, which Poland was lagging behind in prior to socialism, as an excuse to dismiss the entire point.

            The instability of growth I dismiss as immaterial. Why is growth supposed to be stable?

            Skyrocketing poverty rates - refuted as loan repayment and bankrupcy under USSR - please note that your data points same poverty as 1.5% vs (vastly more during multiple decades under USSR occupation).

            on real industrial development

            Financed on loans Poland was forced to make that made sure the Poland was not self sustainable.

            You’re taking the wording of Poland having “no” chemical industry in the context of

            If the Dorothy whatever bases her theory on Polish development under USSR based on the wrong data (like critically wrong), and your unable to provide other sources, you’ve made false claims, not a point.

            However, on the things we can both agree on as fact, we utterly disagree on interpretation.

            I doubt that we agree on facts, as the what you quote as facts doesn’t always seem to be… anchored… in reality. And yet not once you said “you’re right, bad source”. I did a few times?

            tangents then perhaps I would be able to be swayed by you.

            Oh, that’s no longer something I think is possible. Now I genuinely wonder if there’s a fact, or an argument, or smthing, that could make you change your wrong opinion that USSR occupation was good for Poland (against will of Polish worker class might I add, as proven by the multiple strikes - you also need to understand that the strikes were not necessarily against socialism system, but against being forced by USSR into subserviency)

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              The USSR was socialist, public ownership was the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes controlled the state. The fact that you claim that they were “pretending” to be socialist just calls the rest of your points into question. The dissolution of socialism resulted in the far-right taking hold of Poland, purging the left, and selling the country out to the west.

              The instability of growth I dismiss as immaterial. Why is growth supposed to be stable?

              Growth being unstable points to problems with the economy, slumps, overproduction and other inefficiencies.

              Skyrocketing poverty rates - refuted as loan repayment and bankrupcy under USSR - please note that your data points same poverty as 1.5% vs (vastly more during multiple decades under USSR occupation).

              Poverty skyrocketed after the dissolution of socialism. Poland then sold out to the west, and joined the imperialists in Europe. Poland’s economic gains as of late are primarily due to being folded into the western Empire.

              Financed on loans Poland was forced to make that made sure the Poland was not self sustainable.

              Poland and the USSR were both devastated by war. There were certianly economic problems, but this is not a case of colonialism.

              If the Dorothy whatever bases her theory on Polish development under USSR based on the wrong data (like critically wrong), and your unable to provide other sources, you’ve made false claims, not a point.

              Given how you’ve misread most of my sources, it’s unsurprising that you’re misreading Dorothy showing the drastic difference between socialist Poland’s chemical production and pre-War.

              I doubt that we agree on facts, as the what you quote as facts doesn’t always seem to be… anchored… in reality. And yet not once you said “you’re right, bad source”. I did a few times?

              I could say the same of yourself. You constantly misread what I write, taking several comments to correct your misconception, and the same applies to sources I link.

              Oh, that’s no longer something I think is possible. Now I genuinely wonder if there’s a fact, or an argument, or smthing, that could make you change your wrong opinion that USSR occupation was good for Poland (against will of Polish worker class might I add, as proven by the multiple strikes - you also need to understand that the strikes were not necessarily against socialism system, but against being forced by USSR into subserviency)

              Strikes in Poland does not equate to an absolute desire to erase socialism in Poland. As Parenti said:

              During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.

              You genuflect to orthodoxy.

              • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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                3 months ago

                Sure. Sure, I’m orthodox, and yet out of two of us I seem to be the only one willing to be convinced I might be wrong or missing information.

                Poverty skyrocketed after the dissolution of socialism.

                Like talking to a wall.

                Bankrupt country. Forced to repay old loans to be able to make new ones. The poverty rates skyrocketed for 5 years. Then it became lower than during most of USSR occupation.

                Go fucking grab a Polish source from the USSR occupied Poland.

                Fuck, I can name some for you, you just need to go to the damn library because I no longer have it at my home:

                • Warunki życia ludności w latach 1981-1985, Warszawa 1986

                And read fucking there the poverty rate in Poland by Polish standards in the 1980 were oscillating between 10 and 26% depending on the year in PPP.

                In 1989 it was about 15% IIRC (other source obviously).

                Now it’s been > 5% for ~two decades in the source you linked previously?

                During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework

                Dude. That was outside USSR. We were inside. The sources from that era I cited were from inside the USSR.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  3 months ago

                  Sure. Sure, I’m orthodox, and yet out of two of us I seem to be the only one willing to be convinced I might be wrong or missing information.

                  I’m willling to be convinced with compelling enough evidence.

                  Like talking to a wall.

                  Bankrupt country. Forced to repay old loans to be able to make new ones. The poverty rates skyrocketed for 5 years. Then it became lower than during most of USSR occupation.

                  Go fucking grab a Polish source from the USSR occupied Poland.

                  Poverty rates lowered as Poland integrated into the imperialists, and was heavily flooded with EU support to serve as a “shining example” of capitalism fixing socialism. Further, I did, Dorothy Douglas lived in Poland for a time during socialism.

                  Dude. That was outside USSR. We were inside. The sources from that era I cited were from inside the USSR.

                  You’re repeating the same dogma, though. Strikes are evidence of supporting overthrowing socialism, whereas if they hadn’t striked then you would say that was due to oppression. You proceed from “soviets bad” and twist everything to fit your narrative. I’ve spoken to Polish communists like @[email protected] and have read enough on the subject to know that you aren’t painting a complete picture.

                  • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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                    3 months ago

                    Why would you even call me into the thread full of reactionaries and especially the one debate pervert who is know for bad faith anticommunism ever since their nasty ass drifted here from reddit. 😩

                  • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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                    3 months ago

                    Further, I did, Dorothy Douglas lived in Poland for a time during socialism.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_W._Douglas

                    This Dorothy Douglas? On whom there’s no information anywhere that she ever left the USA, yet lived in Poland?

                    If the other people you talked to share your sources then you might’ve been catfished or in an echo chamber?