Large grocery stores around here offer cheaper gas if you shop at there store. This can be up to a dollar a gallon off.
The bitterness toward those with gas cars isn’t helping either. I drive an electric now and I like it, but I hate how we’re working so hard to force people. It’s not right. Freedom is important.
Freedom of choice is certainly important but we do all have to work together for the sake of our future and our children’s future. It is certainly a good idea to set efficiency and emissions standards, including up to a controlled transition to zero emissions.
It’s not even close to a situation of forcing any customers: we’re at a stage of forcing manufacturers to improve their products and work toward a transition in 11 years, and help encourage a growing market for them to profit by it.
This is back to old arguments like:
- free speech but you can’t yell “FIRE” in a coowded theater
- freedom to swing your arms, that stops before you hit my face
And connected to Tragedy of the Commons.
- breathable air and livable environments are something we all need in common. You have no right to take that from the rest of us
breathable air and livable environments are something we all need in common. You have no right to take that from the rest of us
And based on this logic, you only get the right to take my freedom when can prove that I’m taking your livable environment away.
Sure, we have standards to demonstrate that. We know that global warming is taking that livable environment away. We have established goals per country, and strategies to meet them. Those strategies map out limits for how much your vehicle can pollute, without being detrimental to everyone’s livable environment. Given the impact on people, we’ve made the compromise to phase those in over more than a decade, but after 2035 (in my state), the compromise is over. New cars for sale can no longer emit carbon dioxide as part of their operation.
Your existing vehicle is grandfathered since we hadn’t established those limits when it was manufactured, and it was the purchased with the expectation of being suitable for purpose
We know that global warming is taking that livable environment away
No we do not. You’re claiming that you are going to die, unless you take away my freedom.
Can you show me the evidence of a model that’s predicting humans being unable to live here due to global warming? I doubt that you can.
Read the news sometime. A memorable recent one I read included the history of a barrier island town, the nearby ones already abandoned, and whether they need to abandon it yet or if it was still livable. The root cause was sea level rise caused by global warming
I can’t say I’ve seen any people ‘forcing’ others to go out and replace a perfectly functional combustion car with an electric one - the manufacturers maybe. Most of the conversation I see is focused on the lack of low cost options when it’s time to purchase a brand new vehicle. Gas and electric both.
Once you move away from the brand new discussion, it seems pretty well agreed that keeping what you’ve got is the best option environmentally and financially. Buying used being a close second.
Freedom is important. But when the industry only offers you trucks and SUVs, where’s your choice?
Actually, buying a new electric car is better for the environment than keeping your current car.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/04/new-ev-vs-old-beater-which-is-better-for-the-environment/
Unfortunately, like most issues we face, this is not a stand alone problem. I’ll concede, over the length of ownership of the car, a brand new electric vehicle is more environmentally friendly than keeping your current combustion engine vehicle.
However, we don’t live in a society where the majority can make that choice independent of other factors. EVs are more expensive across the board.
Even if the purchasing cost of an off-the-lot EV were equivalent to continued use of an older ICE across two years - most people can not afford it.
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Not when the planet and future generations are at stake.
Aside from even that, I rolled down my window this morning on my way to work to enjoy some fresh air and I got a big blast of toxic exhaust fumes. It’s literally poisoning the air around us. IMO people’s right to not breathe toxic fumes is more important than someone else’s right to drive a gas car just because they like it.
We aren’t there yet in terms of cost or electric charger availability, but once we are we should 100% ban gas cars.
Maybe they could also offer free EV charging spaces in parking stalls that are close to the store, in addition to still offering gasoline. They’re going to have customers that drive both.
You really don’t want them ‘close’ to the store. Too many people will park in specialty parking spaces like grocery pick-up/handicap/pregnant spaces because they’d rather not walk 10 extra steps. As far as I can tell nothing happens, the stores refuse to call a tow truck on a possible customer.
God forbid people save some money nowadays. It seems no matter what, someone will find something to complain about.
Electric vehicles aren’t helping with the transition to electric vehicles. Cars are more expensive than ever. If one has a choice between an annoyingly necessary vehicle that can get them to and from work and take care of long trips, or something that costs the same (or more) and can’t even get you halfway across the state on a single charge, which would one with a limited budget pick?
I have some friends that tried to take the plunge with EV. They bought one used, so some age on the traction pack. Cold-ass winter came along, the car doesn’t do active thermal management of the pack. They could barely make it 24 miles between towns. Their next car will be a hybrid. Until EVs are priced similar and behave similar to ICE cars, it’s going to be a slow roll to convert people.
plugin hybrids to me are an important step. If it can do 10 miles without starting to use gas and the person plugs it in they will use very little gas.
The only problem with this idea is plugin hybrids should have been an important step. Why haven’t we already phased out pure gasoline vehicles for hybrid and plugin hybrid? We could have and should have done this when pure EVs were not yet practical.
But that time has passed. EVs are or could be practical for most uses, with current technology. Manufacturers don’t get to just build overpriced luxury vehicles and say “see, no one wants them: let’s go back to gasoline”. Not enough cheap EVs? We could if manufacturers would scale up, or if we allowed imports from China. Not enough charging stations? That’s just time and investment, and was rapidly changing at least up to Tesla’s layoffs. You don’t get to delay the build out and say “see, there’s not enough chargers”. Not enough raw materials? Huge discoveries in the last couple of years, and recycling ready to scale up as soon as enough vehicles are there. Not enough power in the grid? They only respond to steady growth in demand, and need that growth maintained over years. I suppose plug-in hybrid is better than gasoline but we’re really at the stage where EV technology is practical for most and the biggest impediment is just doing it
I mean for myself I could not plug one in and if you ever have dealt with a community like a condo getting permission to one off is only overshadowed by trying to get the place to improve the infrastructure overall in impossibility. I sorta hope incentives or regulations come along to make such changes easier.
Right, but the technology is there. The obstruction is legal/policy/who pays, so older technology shouldn’t have to be the answer.
I’m frustrated with this same issue at my ex’s condo. The entire complex is townhouses with assigned parking in front. It also has the service entrance in front, so a charger is a short cable under the side walk from a unit’s service entrance to a pedestal at their parking spot. Cheap and easy, and everyone pays their own electric bill. So why won’t they do it? Oh well, if my ex doesn’t want that fight, it’s not my problem
well and thats a bit easier than a building style. I can’t just run something in the garage. I kid you not but a guy had insulation put above his unit in the attic and they spent condo funds to have a lawyer go after it to remove it and when he fought back they had a guy take the insulation out. its freakin nuts!
and can’t even get you halfway across the state on a single charge
This is the part that needs to be rethought. Depending on speed and stuff, I can go about 200 miles on a charge. Want to go farther? Fine! DC fast charging is, in fact, fast. Plug in, take a pee break, stretch for a minute, and get a bite to eat. In 20 minutes, you can get a lot of charge in most cars (granted, my Chevy Bolt needs a little more time but that battery technology is relatively obsolete)
We already stop on the road for other reasons. It’s not hard to combine stops, and it will only get easier as chargers get built up. Stop pretending we need to drive 500 miles without stopping, that’s dangerous anyway.
Want to go farther? Fine! DC fast charging is, in fact, fast
Sure, but those need to exist at the appropriate locations, and be maintained in working order - neither of which is the current reality in a lot of places.
Add to that the lack of availability of affordable EVs and you are going to have the slow adoption we currently see.
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I was planning to get an EV of some sort the last time my vehicle needed to be replaced, but there were none available at the time that fit my budget and my needs.
I still intend to have one relatively soon, but the practical realities are still an impediment.
More importantly, people should give more priority to more common needs. I plug my car in when I get home, like my phone, and just always have a charge. It is so much more convenient to never have to go to a local gas station again. Much better than older cars where it seemed like I had to go every couple of weeks.
Yes, recharging my EV is less convenient on road trips, but it’s more convenient 95+% of the time
It’s not more convenient 95% of the time if you don’t live in a place where you can just plug it in all the time. Until people are able to figure out how to get widespread adoption of EV charging stations in apartments and condos, EV adoption by the general public is significantly limited.
I actually see this rest stop idea as really cool advantage to bring life back to random locations across the country. Kinda like the 1950s Route 66 road tour theme that was popular back then. Create a stop with some goofy thing to look at, some food, some place to stretch, a park, a rock wall, whatever. Great opportunity to capitalism while creating fun and working around the range problem until technology improves or countries like the US get with the program and go more public transport.
As for:
Stop pretending we need to drive 500 miles without stopping, that’s dangerous anyway.
It is more a functional reality in western states, not a luxury or something to boast about. One can drive that 200 miles (likely your charge range will be less at 85MPH with a 60MPH headwind and ascending 4000 vertical feet over a few hours) without having services, utilities, or even towns. The range is a necessity to get back to civilization, let alone finding a charger or gas station.
The “transition away from gas vehicles” and the “transition to electric vehicles” aren’t the same thing and shouldn’t be conflated.
The bulk of the transition should be to other forms of transportation, not simply subbing out disastrous gas automobiles for only-marginally-less-disastrous electric automobiles.
One problem is the lack of alternative transport options. In most of the US, public transport just isn’t a thing. And things are too far apart for cycling to be efficient for commutes, grocery shopping, etc.
I hope that changes some day though.
for those not from the US, I highly recommend watching the YouTube channel “Not Just Bikes” to get a better understanding of how absolutely dogshit the US is for anyone without a car.
Not only is public transit non-existent… you are nearly constantly under threat of being hit by a car as a pedestrian - as things like sidewalks, street crossing safe areas, etc. are all spotty at best… not to mention how trucks and SUVs now are bigger than ever so chances are higher than they’ve ever been before that you won’t be seen before being run over.
I wish more people, more ordinary non-Lemmings, understood this.
Even if you can’t get everywhere with a bike, you can definitely go some places. Last year, completely on accident, I went a whole month only using my car twice. 90% of my trips were to the grocery store and other close-by destinations.
Electric cars are just an evolution of the status quo designed as a pressure valve to prevent the momentum for real change from building up.
While many people in urban and suburban areas could effectively integrate bikes into their daily routines, it still ultimately depends where you live, given that many areas don’t have safe bike lanes or are simply too rural to be able to bike as part of one’s routine.
They may not even have thought of it. If you’re a customer of such a place, you could suggest to them that there are people who drive EVs and a similar benefit for charging would attract those customers.
Of course it probably comes down to someone would need to decide it’s worth the investment of setting up a charging station, so it’s not going to be cheap or fast
This is a very North American problem.
