• Melllvar@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    While I agree with the sentiment, saying that it’s been hundreds of years in the making is just wrong. If anything, labor rights are at historic highs, and that’s been centuries in the making.

      • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        Capitalism is supposed to put the worker at the top

        It doesn’t because the people with capital make decisions

        Christianity straight up opposes wealth, but it doesn’t play out that way because people with wealth make the decisions

        It’s the same for every system/ideology because a power vacuum will always be filled

        • olivebranch@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          You are assuming someone always has to be in power over someone else. Historically most communities where run without anyone in charge, but with direct democracies. It just became harder with bigger cities, because it was harder to communicate with everyone else. Perhaps we can change that with the Internet.

          • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Historically you are incorrect

            If you don’t put power over someone else then someone comes in and puts it over you

            The vehicle for change was just how easily that other person can get to you

            You can go back to bronze age kings to demonstrate how what you said was false in all of recorded history

            • olivebranch@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              There is a good yt channel talking about egalitarian societies in prehistory called What is Politics

              • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                If you want to go far enough back that we use theory

                Then we can say prehistoric nomadic humans still had fights with other clans and territorial disputes because our genetic ancestors (chimps/monkeys/apes) also have those

                And if you were there with a gun, would you be able to dominate them? If so then you are able to put power over people without a power structure

                • olivebranch@lemmy.ca
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                  1 year ago

                  Territorial disputes where only common after agriculture in humans, because territory wasn’t as important before as mutual aid.

  • OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    I just don’t think this argument really tracks. If we were hunter/gatherers, we would have no choice but to hunt and gather for food. No it’s not consensual, you have to do it, but would we really say we were being coerced? By who? Nature?

    You can say there is bad stuff about Capitalism, and better ideas or systems we should do instead, without this coercion claim.

    • spacedout@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      In the case of capitalism, we are actually speaking about coercion, though. The concept of “primitive accumulation” (or “primary accumulation”), as introduced by Karl Marx in his critique of political economy, refers to the historical process that led to the formation of capitalism by separating the producer from the means of production. This separation is what ultimately pushed people into the capitalist labor market, making them dependent on selling their labor to survive. The coercive forces that pressured people into capitalism and the labor market can be understood through several key mechanisms:

      1. Enclosure of the Commons: In England and elsewhere in Europe, land that was previously held in common for collective use by peasants was enclosed, privatized, and turned into private property. This process forced many peasants off the land, depriving them of their traditional means of subsistence and making them dependent on wage labor.

      2. Colonialism and Slavery: The expansion of European powers into the Americas, Africa, and Asia involved the appropriation of land and resources, often through violent means. Indigenous peoples were displaced or enslaved, and their resources were extracted for the benefit of European capitalist economies. This not only facilitated the accumulation of capital but also integrated various regions into the global capitalist system.

      3. Legislation: Laws and regulations played a crucial role in this process. For example, the series of laws known as the “Poor Laws” in England were designed to coerce the unemployed and poor into working for wages. These laws restricted the movement of labor and made it illegal to refuse work, effectively pushing people into the labor market.

      4. Destruction of Alternative Economies: Pre-capitalist forms of production and exchange, such as feudalism, communal living, or barter systems, were systematically destroyed or undermined. This was not only through direct coercion but also through economic policies and practices that favored capitalist modes of production and exchange.

      5. Industrial Revolution: The technological advancements of the Industrial Revolution created a demand for labor in factories. The rural populations, already dispossessed by the enclosure movements, migrated to urban centers in search of work, further entrenching the wage labor system.

      Marx argued that primitive accumulation was not a one-time historical event but an ongoing process that sustains capitalism. It involves continuous dislocation and dispossession to maintain a labor force that has no other choice but to sell its labor power. This process ensures a supply of workers for the capitalist system and maintains the conditions necessary for capital accumulation.

      In essence, the transition to capitalism, fueled by these coercive forces, created a society where the majority must sell their labor to a minority who owns the means of production, thereby establishing the capitalist labor market and perpetuating the cycle of capital accumulation.