Me too. Thanks.
The only sticking point is the guns.
I joined up with liberalgunowners on that other site for a while, thinking I might find kindred souls that were pro-shooting sports, but understood that the way we handled gun ownership in this country had some problems.
Nope.
They were just as devoid of nuance and reason when it came to gun ownership as the conservatives. They figured slapping a rainbow or a “no step on snek” patch on their molle tacticool gear was good enough, but thoughts and prayers if a gay nightclub got shot up.
So yeah, I think guns are fun and have a place in hunting and other sports. But not like what we’ve got now.
I like guns too. I shot them at a range and I’m pretty good. It’s like a video game where you make you’re breathing right and all that jazz.
If someone asked me if I wanted to fire guns but also children were to die in schools due to unfettered gun access thanks to those rules. I’d say, thanks but no thanks.
No but you don’t understand – fixing the “children die in schools” part would be inconvenient for gun owners. They’d have to do things like “wait longer for a gun” or “prove they know how to handle and store firearms” and ultimately, isn’t that a bigger tragedy than the murder of someone else’s kids?
i just want to be left alone, and i want other people to be left alone, and i want rights, and i want other people to have rights.
Revolutionary concept.
It’s called being Liberal.
No it’s called being a leftist. Liberals are all that but they suck corporate removed, too.
Empowering Corporations restricts the rights and freedoms of individual peoples, so no. Also, in the USA at least, I’ve never met a self-described liberal who supports deregulation or opposes taxation of corporations.
It’s literally the foundation of neoliberalism, my guy.
If you want to draw a line between neoliberalism and liberals, fine, but when you start asking “liberals” for their stances on the distinguishing beliefs not a whole lot of them support going back to the New Deal or even Kennedy era type beliefs on the role of government.
Yeah, I’m telling you that they don’t exist for decades now. Modern day neoliberals call themselves Libertarians. In the 1900s there were self-identified neoliberals who copied the moniker used to describe 1800s thinkers. Nowadays it’s just an insult that tankies use to justify their both-sides bullshit.
With a quick search on multiple search engines I cannot find any modern groups who self-identify as Liberal and also as Neoliberal Laissez-Faire Capitalists. Because deregulation generally opposes liberalism as it stands in today’s politics.
Ah, yes, I forgot no political traditions other than liberalism want people to have rights.
Literally the bare definition of the word, lmfao.
For most of the 19th century and most of the 20th one, liberals were divided at best and opposed at worst when it came to positive rights (this is, rights tied to positive freedoms that the state must ensure you have, as opposed to not preventing you from reaching them, such as getting access to social housing even if you’re bankrupt); while left-wing ideologies (save for leninists) were promoting both political and social rights.
Even if you want to refer to contemporary liberals in the current year 2024 (and forget what liberals were doing in 2007), the leaders of political liberalism in the US aren’t keen in creating real public housing options (while the cost of housing skyrockets) or public healthcare options (while medicare eats away the government’s budget (without offering full coverage for everything to everyone) because it’s paying a premium, since it depends on private prices). In Europe, liberals are the ones who promote market economy over social rights, with their only saving grace being that they aren’t as batshit crazy as plenty of parties to their right. If you want to find political camps that defend both political and social rights, you have to look at socialdemocrats and socialists.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/
Present some examples, I’ve never met self-identified liberals who oppose public healthcare or housing. Literally all of the public healthcare and housing options available in the USA were from progressive reform from what the media often refers to as “liberals”. Where are these supposed “Negative Liberty Liberals” that you people keep ranting about? That Stanford paper you brought up uses an example from 70 years ago, when Liberal was a moniker chosen by Laissez-Faire Market and Anti-Tax proponents who today would align with what is referred to as Libertarian.
That Stanford paper you brought up uses an example from 70 years ago,
The Standford paper explains the development of the historical debate of the issue.
when Liberal was a moniker chosen by Laissez-Faire Market and Anti-Tax proponents who today would align with what is referred to as Libertarian.
This framing is proof that you don’t understand where liberalism comes from. What were liberals defending in 1800, in 1850, in 1900, in 1950?
As for the examples you ask for:
Trudeau Liberals vote to allow for-profit health care system, NDP blasts flip-flop
(Article in Spanish) The origins of the healthcare collapse: the cuts of CiU and the tri-party ; Note: Catalan politics have long consisted a competition between liberal, socialdemocratic and left-wing parties, where the liberal ones have always incentivized private companies over public services, with the support of minoritarian Conservative parties.
In Germany, founders of private hospital companies are bankrolling the pro-business party FDP: FDP is the liberal party in Germany (with conservative parties to their right and socialdemocratic, left-leaning and green parties to their left). At the bottom of the article:
There is little doubt that the positions of the FDP on healthcare could be shared by the businessmen who built their fortune on private for-profit clinics. In its electoral platform, the party says: “We reject unequal treatment of private, public and non-profit hospitals operators just as strongly as we reject a planning sovereignty of the health insurance funds for health care structures”. That means that the FDP thinks that private hospitals should, for example, get the same amount of public investment than public and non-profit hospitals.
Which is ultimately a form of corrupting the basis of a public healthcare system, making people think they will receive worse care if they won’t pay for private services and pushing the public system towards its collapse.
Present some examples, I’ve never met self-identified liberals who oppose public healthcare or housing
Yeah, no shit? The average voter in the US doesn’t understand the difference between liberalism, socialdemocracy and socialism, so they’ll call themselves liberals even if they don’t understand the nuances of the term, while the average Democratic politician understands that they shouldn’t express opposition to public policies that poll well with voters, even if they certainly don’t intend to promote them. Because they barely have any politicians competing against them from their left, they aren’t exposed not defending an actual public option.
Your ass in here making me study Canadian Politics all of a sudden, but fine I’m game. Two things:
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The Liberal Party of Canada is the oldest party of Canada founded in 1867, their name by now has absolutely zero bearing on the definition of the words. That said, Trudeau is more unpopular with Canadians with each passing day, clearly not aligned with his constituents. The conservative proposal by Doug Jones was discussed by Liberal Party members in September as something they oppose.
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I literally cannot find that vote that NDP talks about in the current session of the 44th Parliament of Canada, not saying I don’t believe you, but I cannot actually find out more about it because none of the articles actually mention the name of the Bill. I did, however, find information about the Pharmacare Act C-64 which will potentially make medications for Diabetes as well as contraceptives free for all citizens and funded by the public entity. So, I guess you have the “fake” liberals to thank for it.
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I’m so far left that I got my guns back 🙂
There’s a comedian that pointed out this is why conservative groups garner so much support.
“Do you oppose abortion?” “No.” “Do you hate the gays?” “No.” “Do you think illegal immigrants should be shot?” “Yeah.” “Well, COME ON DOWN!”
Meanwhile, liberal groups after asking about 18 issues: “Are you vegan?” “No.” “Well, I BET you voted for TRUMP!!”
I miss when we could find common ground in politics.
i think most liberals hate vegans but still applies
My carnivore friends are massively more evangelical than my vegan friends. Just my experience I guess.
Meanwhile, liberal groups after asking about 18 issues: “Are you vegan?” “No.” “Well, I BET you voted for TRUMP!!”
No shortage of carnivore liberals.
But I’ll never understand why declining to eat meat upsets people so much.
I don’t give a fuck if you don’t eat meat up until you start giving me shit for eating meat.
The argument is always for the greater good and from a position of superiority. That’s just authoritarianism from a different angle.
up until you start giving me shit
I’ve seen a conga line of Joe Rogan heads insisting there is an underground anti-meat campaign to target and harass carnivores, nationally.
However, I was eating bbq down in Texas just this weekend, completely unmolested.
The argument is always for the greater good and from a position of superiority.
Sure. Because we produce (and then waste) enormous amounts of meat. And the production of meat consumes an enormous amount of arable land and potable water. And we absolutely would be much better off - from a climate change perspective - if we weren’t growing almonds to feed to cows to feed the choicest bits of to people.
Vegans have us all dead to rights, logically and ecologically.
But they’re a tiny minority working against the capitalist drive, and also they’re soy and gay.
Mostly they’re the whipping kids of an industry that does unfathomable cruelty and waste and then feels the need to complain about how they’re the victims.
That’s just authoritarianism
Go look up the time Oprah Winfrey was forced to apologize to the Texas Cattle Ranchers Association because she mentioned a burger gave her food poisoning.
What do you mean when you say ‘pro gun?’ Do you mean you are in favor of guns being legal with absolutely no regulation whatsoever or do you mean that you are in favor of guns being legal but highly regulated?
It’s really not an either/or situation like some people think it is.
I’m very liberal and own several guns and I 100% think most people shouldn’t own guns because they are not responsible enough for them.
I want sensible gun laws, but I also want gun laws to make sense.
That means, removing all restrictions on items like suppressors, AR15s, SBRs, etc. But allowing only people that can show they are competent to own them.
Agreed. Especially about suppressors. It’s a safety devise. It will save your ears. Countries like Sweden and Norway even get that aspect, suppressors are encouraged to keep the peace with neighbors and are not regulated like firearms even. Anyone can own one as soon as they can own a gun.
I was shocked at the suppressor cost and process having recently gone through it. I got a suppressor for my .22, I primarily use it when I’m out walking my small dog. I can fire the .22 and it isn’t loud (I was not expecting it to be movie gun quiet but it is) so it is ear protection for both of us, he doesn’t startle, and my neighbors are far enough apart they would never hear it. So next time coyotes see him as food instead of challenge my unarmed willingness to defend my dog I’ll be more prepared.
It’s an expensive, long, and involved process that disadvantages folks with less resources than myself which bothered me.
