I escaped the Reddit regime a little while ago. I consider myself a marxist-leninist-MZT. Vegetarian and vegan for a few years. I’ve a lot of thoughts on how marxism and veganism are connected. Never wrote them down. I’d like to start smth like a club for marxist vegans to develop our own proletarian theory. Most vegan theory I found is either openly bourgeois (Francione is a literal TERF) or revisionist (anti-China, anarchist, libertarian). How about fixing this?

    • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
      11·
      6 months ago

      Bruh where did you get idea I want to change anything in the first place?

      I implied that you didn’t and that this was why you were focusing on barriers. If you had a vegan ethical stance you would be able to find a way.

      This isn’t a sweets and chocolate situation you have to choose to stop when you’re getting to fat, this is natural and completely normal diet of human beings.

      I’m not following your logic. But appealing to normative or historical practice is not enough on its own and is, for example, how reactionaries justify themselves.

      I’m not a herbivore.

      I am and it was easy.

        • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
          6·
          6 months ago

          Guess what I don’t, because I’m an omnivore and I don’t want to change natural food chain just because 1% tells me to do so.

          You don’t what? I don’t understand what you are saying.

          That’s the first mistake of vegans, thinking that every human WANTS to change natural diet

          I actually said you did not want to twice already. Very first thing I said, I think…

          Though nothing in modern diets under capitalism is particularly “natural”. All of our foods are technologically developed, including basically all of our crops over thousanda of years, mostly through artificial selection and hybridization.

          and become like them oh so much but they just can’t because they’re ‘‘addicted’’ to natural food like it’s a heroin or cigarette.

          Hmm, did I say that?

          Because reactionary ideologies who harm and kill millions of people is the same as eating fucking chicken and drinking milk, give me a break.

          Hmm, did I say that?

          That doesn’t change the fact that humans are natural omnivores

          I would be happy to discuss the science of trophic levels, human behavior, and diets if you are interested. Calling a modern diet under capitalism “natural” doea not really make sense, though.

          that’s just your personal choice of diet and you’re acting like you got off drugs or became sober for that.

          I am? How so?

          And also doesn’t change the fact that that plants are also living things which you eat and further damage ecosystem.

          Everyone knows plants live, this ia not news to any vegan and it is not inconsistent to eat them. Animal agriculture is far more negatively impactful on the environment.

            • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
              8·
              6 months ago

              I don’t have any stance in the first place, that’s what I meant, I’m just eating like 99% humans at any point at history.

              You’re actually not, though! Historically, humans were hunter gatherers with a diet fairly different from yours, I would bet. Think about what you would be eating if you needed to forage between the Euphrates and Tigris some handful of thousands of years ago before widespread agriculture. And then consider that humans were out there doing human things for hundreds of thousands of years before that. They weren’t eating storebought nitrogenated steaks from generations-bred, cornfed cows! Domesticated cattle did not even exist. There were Aurochs.

              Bruh I don’t eat diets ‘‘under capitalistic companies’’, don’t eat fast food and the like, I eat food brought fresh straight from the village.

              That is not a quote of anything I said. I’m saying that we live in capitalist societies with industrialized agriculture and our foods have been highly modified by humans. How do you define a natural diet? Does it include twinkies? Sweet corn? Winter Wheat? What does it really mean to call a diet natural or not?

              You’re acting like you accomplished some huge goal worth of every praise like getting sober or stopping using drugs or lost a lot of weight

              Actually, I said it was easy for me. That is the opposite of what you are saying I said.

              when all you did is literally just change diet and try to force other people into it.

              How am I trying to force other people into it?

              A chicken raised by grandparents on yard in village is more environmentally friendly food source than a plants imported from across the country or from abroad.

              That depends on how it is fed. If you ever provide it with feed, this statement is probably false. And the vast, vast majority of chickens are given feed.

              Is every chicken you eat a backyard chicken not prpvided with feed?

                • CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml
                  6·
                  6 months ago

                  I do, we just don’t have to hunt for a long time now that we have livestock, I’m eating as 99% of humans in a sense that I’m a omnivore, which is natural for human beings and other apes.

                  But you’re also not eating like 99% of human history in the sense that your diet is very different. It took humanity thousands of years across myriad cultures to generate the foods we take for granted. This is something that often goes unappreciated about past and current cultures, as some of the most amazing technologies are plants like corn, potatoes, wheat, soybean, lentils, etc, not just electricity or guns. There are also many such technologies that are not widely known or have even vanished, which is cultivation without planned plots or inputs, just taking care of the environment threw stewardship of existing plants and lands, like the ubiquitous technology of controlled burns. This made food that would not go to market, but sustained societies.

                  So, why would eating like 99% of history be the thing to do in one way but not the other?

                  Natural as in I don’t eat junk from McDonalds and other capitalistic companies, I eat stuff brought straight from the villages.

                  Like whole foods, that kind of thing. That’s good! But don’t forget that villages are highly advanced and use agricultural technology developed over thousands of years, right down to the food itself.

                  You literally are(you are currently doing it) by going and moralizing

                  I haven’t moralized once. I suggested a materialist analysis of the phenomenon of modern veganism, which is basically the opposite of that.

                  guilt tripping

                  I have not guilt tripped.

                  and annoying about this stuff

                  Can you tell me what I’ve done that’s annoying?

                  go and attack companies, poachers, animal traders and people who endanger near extinct species if you want to do something truly noble and leave normal people alone.

                  I suggested a material analysis of modern veganism as tied to capitalism and imperialism. We are currently discussing things that you have brought up, not me.

                  Guess what, it isn’t, they don’t provide it with it. Most are explicitly against it.

                  I don’t know what you mean by this. Can you explain? Thank you!

        • ☭CommieWolf☆@lemmygrad.ml
          6·
          6 months ago

          I’ve just been reading your responses and I think one point you might want to be careful with is “Human Nature” as if it’s a fixed static thing. Humans are capable of all manner of things in our natural form, but that does not automatically mean that those things are inherently good, healthy, or moral. According to just basic natural ability, and simple evolutionary strategy, every man should go around impregnating as many women as possible in order to propagate his DNA to the next generation. This was what our ancestors used to do, and it’s what many animals do in nature all the time, which is completely biologically feasible. However, as humans we are uniquely capable of rational thought, and we have the ability to rise above simple animal behavior, which is why the average person won’t go around killing each other’s children and taking each others mates. It’s an extreme example but I was hoping to maybe give you some idea of how the “Nature” talking point can be twisted to justify things that any normal person would see as absurd.