In western trans culture, most trans women would consider being called a “ladyboy” or “removed” an overly sexualized insult. It’s primarily used when referring to sex workers, not to someones identity. It’s similar to calling a random woman who has children a MILF. So don’t refer to someone as this unless that is a label they apply to themselves first.
I’m not knowledgeable enough to truly make definitive statements about how the term is used in Thailand, but from what I understand it’s a rough/poor translation from “Kathoey” which is used for anyone outside of traditional gender roles meaning a more direct/correct translation would be non-binary or queer.
On a related note, Femmeboy is a term used in the west, but that is specifically referring to a younger man/boy who is effeminate. It is specifically saying they are not trans, so could be anything from a femme gay boy to someone who enjoys crossdressing.
Kathoey are definitely not androgynous. They are explicitly living as women would, and present very feminine as shown. To varying degrees of success in passing, but it isn’t an issue. Nobody tells them they can’t be kathoey. They just are.
There is a lesser known opposite, Tom. As in, Tomboy. These are afab who essentially live as men. Less so than kathoey, I will say, presumably because society isn’t as ready for afab to play male roles. But they will wear short hair, dress masculine, and usually have relationships with with cis-women, known as "Dee (for “good (girl)” 🫤). When was there more than a decade ago at the start of social media really taking off, there was a high-society generational trend of cis-girls dating tomboys in their late teens, as a way to be safe from pregnancy/abuse while still being the cool girl who dates on Insta. You imagine this to be pretty sad at times for Toms who get abandoned as soon as said ciswomen are more stable in life.
They are explicitly living as women would, and present very feminine as shown
Degendering, or refusing to gender a trans person by only using neutral language such as they/them is an incredibly rude thing to do. It’s the equivalent of two siblings going “I’m not touchingmisgendering you!”. Obviously in the course of conversation using they/them makes sense for everyone in certain sentences. But at a certain point it’s just dehumanizing. I’m not non-binary, I’m a woman.
Next time your BF/GF is getting dressed up tell em how androgynous they are looking and see how well they take it…
I’m using the plural. Kathoey is both singular and plural in Thai. I would hope you’d also pick that up from “women”.
I’m also being careful not to equate 1-1 the kathoey identity with the transwoman identity. They aren’t the same, though the global conversation I am sure will eventually bring them closer.
Trans people didn’t “pop into existence,” they’ve always been here, even being an important group in the Stonewall riots.
It’s just that it became more acceptable to come out, so reactionaries went full-on open season on them in an effort to force them back in the closet in an aggressive attempt to protect their own fragile identities.
Is this another term for trans women, or something different?
Edit: thanks for everyone who’s educated me, this is really interesting!
This term is translated from the local language(s) and is considered different from trans
In western trans culture, most trans women would consider being called a “ladyboy” or “removed” an overly sexualized insult. It’s primarily used when referring to sex workers, not to someones identity. It’s similar to calling a random woman who has children a MILF. So don’t refer to someone as this unless that is a label they apply to themselves first.
I’m not knowledgeable enough to truly make definitive statements about how the term is used in Thailand, but from what I understand it’s a rough/poor translation from “Kathoey” which is used for anyone outside of traditional gender roles meaning a more direct/correct translation would be non-binary or queer.
On a related note, Femmeboy is a term used in the west, but that is specifically referring to a younger man/boy who is effeminate. It is specifically saying they are not trans, so could be anything from a femme gay boy to someone who enjoys crossdressing.
maybe “androgynous” would be a better direct translation but what do i know
Kathoey are definitely not androgynous. They are explicitly living as women would, and present very feminine as shown. To varying degrees of success in passing, but it isn’t an issue. Nobody tells them they can’t be kathoey. They just are.
There is a lesser known opposite, Tom. As in, Tomboy. These are afab who essentially live as men. Less so than kathoey, I will say, presumably because society isn’t as ready for afab to play male roles. But they will wear short hair, dress masculine, and usually have relationships with with cis-women, known as "Dee (for “good (girl)” 🫤). When was there more than a decade ago at the start of social media really taking off, there was a high-society generational trend of cis-girls dating tomboys in their late teens, as a way to be safe from pregnancy/abuse while still being the cool girl who dates on Insta. You imagine this to be pretty sad at times for Toms who get abandoned as soon as said ciswomen are more stable in life.
Degendering, or refusing to gender a trans person by only using neutral language such as they/them is an incredibly rude thing to do. It’s the equivalent of two siblings going “I’m not
touchingmisgendering you!”. Obviously in the course of conversation using they/them makes sense for everyone in certain sentences. But at a certain point it’s just dehumanizing. I’m not non-binary, I’m a woman.Next time your BF/GF is getting dressed up tell em how androgynous they are looking and see how well they take it…
I’m using the plural. Kathoey is both singular and plural in Thai. I would hope you’d also pick that up from “women”.
I’m also being careful not to equate 1-1 the kathoey identity with the transwoman identity. They aren’t the same, though the global conversation I am sure will eventually bring them closer.
You’re correct on both points and that’s my mistake.
Not really, although it can be used as such, usually by folks who don’t really know what they’re talking about.
Gender identity in Thailand is complicated
Freaking fascinating.
Cross dressers rather than trans, from my understanding.
Sort of. I think it covers a range of things from trans to cross dressers.
I think it’s just something we westerners used before trans people popped into existence over here about five years ago.
Trans people didn’t “pop into existence,” they’ve always been here, even being an important group in the Stonewall riots.
It’s just that it became more acceptable to come out, so reactionaries went full-on open season on them in an effort to force them back in the closet in an aggressive attempt to protect their own fragile identities.