development of Liberalism while you have made broad and clearly inaccurate generalities

Never did that.

established that you think history has no bearing on theory

Literally did the opposite.

tated a single position that liberalism’s foundation is abstract universal rights

Nope I did not.

anyone who disagrees with that position is not only clearly uneducated but has a media-rotted brain and is incapable of discussing theory.

Nope.

Are you like actually removeded? I don’t ask this lightly. I went into your comment history and you do this to a lot of people and they express having the same experience I have. That you just wildly flop around claiming things, move goal posts, claim nonsense and it’s almost like you’re on drugs when you’re reading.

This entire thread has you doing laps disconnecting the historical context liberalism came from claiming it has this nefarious start of merchants basically lying. Your historical context is skewed and really just absolutely incorrect.

Merchants wanted the wealth they were hoarding to translate into power, but they couldn’t buy power because power was tied to land and land was tied to nobility which was entirely determined by the unitary sovereign which was entirely determined by heredity.

That’s skewed and wrong.

Merchants wanted their wealth to translate to power, so they developed a new political theory for where power should come from

Stupid perspective.

So they started to invent abstract concepts to disconnect power from reality so they could reassign power

Stupid

They invented the concept of abstract rights, and they put a right to private property into a list of things like the right to print whatever they wanted in newspapers that they owned and the right to buy and sell anything.

Stupid

Liberalism is the political philosophy of merchants and land owners that gives them political power on the basis of their effectiveness at accumulating wealth and makes the bare minimum concessions to the laboring masses required to get them to fight against the kings on behalf of the merchants.

Stupid

It is the political philosophy of settler colonialism, of privatization, of chattel slavery, of Thomas Jefferson’s breeding plantations, of Coca Cola hiring death squads, of the Opium Wars, of killing all the buffalo so that land could be taken from the Lakota, of getting people addicted to drugs in order to get them into debt.

Very fucking stupid, do you think Thomas Jefferson created liberalism?

Liberalism is the political movement that destroyed the social safety net that feudal societies maintained through nobilesse oblige and impoverished the masses everywhere until it forced the emergence of a labor movement and the creation of labor unions to give the masses a vehicle to fight the liberals, which the liberals crushed with military and paramilitary violence.

Completely ignorant.

It’s all stupid and ignorant because you’re completely failing to understand the environment these ideals were thought under, multiple people in this thread have pointed it out. Liberalism was not thought up by a cabal of merchants, it wasn’t created by the Illuminati with a goal, it wasn’t fashioned as a tool. It came about from people realizing the increasing failures of monarchies and realizing they were able to move away from the crown as a backbone of society and establish something else. It was literally the only educated folk at the time stumbling into the darkness and searching for something more. They did their best with the language and understanding they had to cobble together an argument for individual’s rights. Literally the easiest way to ever make anyone understand is to teach the origins of the word villain and then ask them how to argue against that concept in the face of a king or noble. Those first few steps will lead anyone towards basically liberalism, the concept of self-determination becomes obvious. Everything else follows.

The way you express yourself is this weird frankenstein view where you’re looking at the ultra rich liberals and claiming those are the core beliefs of liberalism. It was not because merchants had a goal, it is because society moved away from what it was before and people felt it.

Yes, I view all political philosophies through a historical concrete lens and not through an abstract idealist one.

You think this sounded smart, but it means fucking nothing. Political theories are abstract, they are ideals. When anyone tries to point out even in the slightest way that your view is crooked you respond like this:

Please read a book before posting this sort of embarrassingly ignorant shit

You’re a child, you’re an asshole and above all you’re a fucking idiot suffering from some hardcore Dunning-Kruger energy. You think you know, when others reply normally and push back you embrace your inner little removed energy and just completely crumble. You do not discuss, you cry.

Then you say shit like this :

No. Liberalism creates plutocracies. Your definition of democracy is limited to existing liberal democracies. Real democracy is when the people have the ability to influence the state, which is what communist movements have done successfully despite being called “undemocratic” by the Liberals. Mostly because Liberalism cannot abide a state deciding to nationalize its natural resources.

And expose exactly why you’re so dumb. Because you decided what you believe, not the actual truth. Communist movements have not successfully done that, they have always created a massive divide in wealth under the umbrella of equality. They are usually ruled by a wealthy privileged elite, really only Cuba you could make an argument hasn’t done that but they still have the same issue where citizens who have access to foreign currency exist far above those who do not.

You say shit like this:

And Democracy isn’t what produced the the plutocracy in Rome.

and then instantly contradict yourself.

Roman plutocracy emerged because its systems were literally organized by wealth with wealthy people having more say in bodies like the Comitia Centuriata and with wealth requirements for holding office, especially for senators.

So no you can’t discuss theory, you can’t even discuss. You cry, insult, removed, complain, you’re nasty and immature and really just fucking stupid. You don’t understand history. You contradict yourself, you move goalposts, you equivocate what you say, you try all these mental gymnastics because like I said, you’ve decided what you think is true and not actual reality. You’re fucking dumb. Stop talking to me lmfao

You try so hard to be insulting but you’re just pissing on yourself while you do it. I tried to talk to you before, you increasingly got pissy and rude so why would I bother?

The amount you try to wedge words in to change what you’re saying is a joke. Every argument you make relies on equivocating so you can bend it.

Liberalism creates plutocracies.

Ok

I did not said plutocracies are only produced by liberalism.

Oh okay.

You’re a moron, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Playing chess with a pigeon. You have no clue what you’re talking about, you literally don’t even know what liberalism is. Get a job.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall, you’ve decided what you think not what reality says. Liberalism didn’t exist in Rome. Communism absolutely has it’s own woes and your cheerleading of it just makes you look very silly. I guess the Aral Sea never existed.

Your brain is rotted by media. It’s very funny how many “communists” screech theory and then aren’t able to discuss theory.

Aren’t all political theories like this? Communism gives rise to privileged ruling class and tends to take worker’s rights away when in theory it is supposed to equalize and support worker’s rights, planning an economy to distribute goods equally creates inefficiencies. Democracies create plutocracies, Fascism leads to cronyism, Anarchism leaves gaps for might makes right-thinking, Monarchies claim divine right and then falls to civil war and assassinations who then claimed the same divine right rule.

I also think it is rather silly to call everything liberalism or throwing that blanket on every action a country does because it calls itself liberal. A country that calls itself liberal can still do imperialism, a country that calls itself fascist can still do socialism, a country that calls itself a democracy can still do authoritarianism.

Government, politics, political theory, economy. They’re big beasts, they don’t just do what they say on the tin.

The foundation of liberalism is natural rights, the rule of law and personal autonomy. The US was the first country founded on those principles and a lot of what you said came from how the US managed to do that, with the financial backing of rich southern slave-owning states and the concept of manifest destiny which is directly tied to religion and the concept of owning land to embrace liberalism.

But liberal concepts first played out in Europe in opposition of monarchies, not really on the basis of land owning but more private property in the face of a king which you could argue are the same but a lot of private property wasn’t specifically just land. Which is what I mean, you’re talking about the American liberalism evolution, not the like two hundred years before that where it existed as a political theory used to wrestle power from the ultra rich of that time.

Oh that relieves you of being the meme in question, okay.

I… don’t understand how that changes anything?

You’re still in a way telling people not to vote dem even though we are past primaries.

You’re talking about the ends of Liberalism but never from the basis of the philosophers and minds who came up with the concept. This is the same disconnect people have with socialism. They view how it was played out, not what the core philosophies are.

I wouldn’t say it is wrong, but it is definitely a perspective of how one can view a political theory, through theory or in practice. Do you view all governing philosophies with this lens?

I’d also argue a lot of what you said has more to do with religion but it is pretty hard to separate religion and governing styles when they intentionally intertwine themselves with beliefs like “god given rights” and what not.

You are literally doing the meme though. 2 terrible examples, but plenty of others are nothing like that.

What do you think liberalism means?

What does liberalism mean to you

It’s also classism. Originally only the very high class could read, then it became you had to speak Greek, then Latin, then French, then a combination of them all. I don’t know if it was intentional, but it feels true.

Rapa Nui at it’s peak

Looks fake

Desperate to stay relevant.

Heat the milk up slightly separately and add the spice into that. You want the liquid flavored.

Uhh was America buying Russian petroleum? Thought there was an embargo?

Yes! That’s what brought me back here to this album. Thao is such an odd artist for me, she’ll release music and I go back to her old stuff before I get into her new stuff. She’s great

Look I think we both believe the same thing overall but for whatever reason we’re not meeting up in the same space.

But you are suggesting violence wasn’t common and hunter-gatherers didn’t engage in it when history tells a completely opposite story that violence was pretty steady. As much as people would cooperate, the also fought. It really depended on resources, and resources were thin. The periods of violence weren’t brief, they were common, everyday and existed alongside peace basically in a duality. We have proof our ancestors likely integrated with neanderthals, we also have proof the two probably beat the shit out of each other. Things aren’t black and white they’re always grey.

I do think humans are innately violent and selfish, but I think you’re viewing that phrasing in our society’s lens. Violent and selfish to us typically means violence and selfish towards our fellow countrymen, neighbors, allies. But we’re not talking about towns and cities of millions, we’re talking about clans and cultures of maybe a few hundred tops. They likely viewed their own much closer, but when it came to outsiders they were in competition for resources with, they had to be selfish and likely were willing to be violent for their own people. It isn’t the same individual selfishness, it is more of a “me and my people” selfishness that you can still see today with racism, nationalism, weird cultural identity issues. We find skeletons with signs of trauma all the time suggesting violence was constant for these people, raids and clashes were common. You had to fight for what you needed quite literally.

Today we see how much education is a decider in how selfish people are, those who can understand society and view people with empathy and understand how that fits in tend to engage in it more. For most of human history there were less people on the entire planet than in my area alone, I live amongst maybe 9million people. That’s massively more than the entire planet housed for thousands upon thousands of years. And the fact we don’t fight, aren’t violent and work everyday together shows we have deincentivized violence massively and for the better. Society today is more altruistic, we are the kinder people. But in our hearts and minds still exist the ancient selfish and violent human.

Capitalism doesn’t discourage cooperation at all, as much as we might have issues with our society, capitalism and beyond has actually brought about massive cooperation so that we exist in far greater numbers and experience less violence than our ancestors did. That shows we are better at cooperating. The last 10,000 years might be a fraction but it is not insignificant. Before the last 10,000 years the population was barely scratching 1 million, today we add roughly 100 million each year. Most people who have ever lived have actually lived in the era of recorded history. That is the significant fraction of human history.