I agree with this, but I think we should have some kind of linguistic distinction between pride as in ‘I’m proud I’m not one of those inferior people’ and pride as in ‘I am not ashamed of my heritage’. Because having one word being used both ways has led to people with wildly diverging interpretations of the same sentence.
I didn’t even consider the first one to exist and was briefly upset at George for saying people shouldn’t be proud/accepting of their base characteristics, but what you say makes sense of it for me.
A potentially mind-blowing thing that really drives this point home:
Obama is half-black and half-white (black father and white mother). He’s often and comfortably claimed to be the first black president, but never referred to as a white president, though he’s equally both.
Some races and ethnicities have historically been considered as subtractive, and this is the often unconsidered evil of ethnic or cultural allegiance.
Logically it still made sense, IMO. If he’s half black and half white, while all previous presidents were only white, then the black part is the discriminating factor one could highlight as a success to deviate from the previous norm.
If you wanted to highlight this deviation without leaning in on the black part, you would have had to use something like “not fully white”, which would have been explicitly subtractive and therefore much worse.
Of course one could simply ignore the skin color completely, but I also see empowering in highlighting this shift of breaking an otherwise strict all white run.
This is because the American slave owners wanted to be able to sell their own children.
After raping a slave, if she got pregnant they could free their child or keep them as a slave.
Thomas Jefferson’s concubine, Sally Hemmings, was probably 3/4 white, and at least 1/2 white. Her granddaughter created a scandal when she ‘passed’ for white.
If an american tries to call themselves Native because they are 1/32 Native, people laugh at them. But up until a few years ago, being 1/64 Black made you Black.
Yeah, a monosyllabic word for “I didn’t earn this, but I want to make it clear it’s not something to be ashamed of either” would be pretty dope.
This is why I prefer the word “celebrate”. I didn’t do anything to achieve neurodivergence, it’s not an accomplishment, so why would I be proud of it? But I can be proud of the times when I can push past the executive dysfunction and actually tidy my room.
But I can surely celebrate neurodivergence.
But that’s just me. I don’t mind if other people want to shout “autistic pride”. I used to get accused of being “proud” and “arrogant” a lot by a family member when I was mute or in shutdown, so that might be why I feel an aversion to that word.
Why do you want to hold a celebration?
Because we’re proud. Oh, dangit…
That’s actually what left-wing nationalism is often about (But not always, sometimes it is economical left-populists trying to cope) Also I dont think we need anyone to tell how to relate to others. In a healthy(!) society people can sort themselves out without need to be controlled by some multi-culturalist enforcement (because idea of multiculturalism is kinda impossible)
How is ‘multiculturalism’ impossible? Try spending a day in any big city. People use words from different languages all the time. They use chopsticks and European table ware at the same meal.
You don’t even need to go to a big city. Look at the All American cowboy. Pretty much everything you associate with him comes from Mexico. His lariat comes from ‘la riata’ and his Stetson was based on a sombrero.
It’s the last thing you can be proud of, if you have nothing else.
You think I should be proud more of having a hairy ass?
That can at least keep you warm and shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man. Two things a hairy ass can do that ethnicity can’t.
But ass hair has never taught me a recipe…
shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man.
My ass isn’t that big for people from far away to notice its hairiness :)
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How can we evaluate whether you should be proud of it if you don’t even post pics?
Logic, my hairy ass craving friend. Just use logic. If nationality is the last thing to be proud of then any other characteristic (ass including) has higher priority.
I still cringe when people still seem to hold onto some notion that America is the greatest thing ever. I’m not even talking about MAGA. Like people foolishly still believe a war mongering state like the US should forever be known as the greatest thing ever. Like legit. In their eyes, no other country has come close and no other country does anything just as good. The US is the only leader in anything in their eyes. They make it so dramatic about how much pride they have in the country when they’ve been fed propaganda all their lives. lmao
To them I say, it’s not about U.S. vs the rest of the world. It’s about us, the people, against the corrupt and the state. Like John Lennon says, “no country to die for”. It’s just about people man. Fuck the state. Fuck your borders bullshit.
It’s really cringe and almost everyone does it. Most speeches at the start of an election campaign begin this way, also for liberals. When K. Harris said “We’re America and we’re the only country, where I, a black woman ™, could ever run for office…”
Like, look around. There are women, black people, and black women in office right now around the world. And that’s coming from the more “” “” left “” “” side.
And yet yanks still say “I’m Scottish”, when their great, great, great grandmother was born in Scotland
It’s pathetic
This is why I’m always confused when people get upset with me for not being “patriotic” or whatever. The state and country I’m born in is just dirt surrounded by water. I could not care less about it. It’s just where my mom plopped me out at. Everything else is arbitrary nonsense.
I agree with this 100© but Netanyahu would call this line of thinking anti-Semitism
And I call him a cunt
Along with anybody who thinks an invisible sky-daddy has “chosen” them
There is a utility in having some national pride, in the same way as there is in having some pride in your place of residence. If you feel some pride for your home, you are more likely to invest time and resources in caring for and improving it. If you don’t care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.
Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US’s worst international blunders. These criticisms are valid and true, but they are not the entire truth and the selective lense is intentional.
A common response to self-loathing is a defensive, reactionary display of narcissism.
If you don’t care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.
You’re conflating care and pride. There’s a very rational reason for caring about one’s own home, and that’s the fact that you live there.
Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.
Uh… examples? I’m pretty sure we’ve seen more of the opposite, where rampant nationalism or similar leads societies to disaster.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US’s worst international blunders.
Evidence?
You’re conflating care and pride.
No, I’m connecting them. That’s the point. I did not say that they were the same thing. Rather, that one motivates the other.
There’s a very rational reason for caring about one’s own home
Rational is all well and good, but it doesn’t motivate people in the same way that emotional attachment does. You can’t argue someone into or out of an emotion with good reason.
I’m pretty sure we’ve seen more of the opposite, where rampant nationalism or similar leads societies to disaster.
My point is that rampant nationalism (the national form of narcissism) is an outward symptom of self-loathing. You’re making my argument for me.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US’s worst international blunders.
Evidence?
If I had direct evidence of the conclusion, I would not have begun with the qualifier “Personally I think”. Do you generally struggle with reading comprehension?
I can point to evidence that Russia in particular has a pattern of sowing division within target countries in order to destabilize them, usually followed by political or military pressure of some kind:
https://thewalrus.ca/the-russian-money-behind-albertas-separatist-movement/
Russia has used social media to destabilize former Soviet states such as Ukraine and Western nations such as France and Spain. It has been suggested that since 2019, Russian-sponsored troll accounts and bots have formed and taken over prominent left-wing and right-wing subreddits on Reddit, such as the antiwar, greenandpleasant, and aboringdystopia subreddits, “suggest[ing] a Russian-led attempt to antagonize and influence Americans online, which is still ongoing.” Canadian subreddits have also been directly targeted by Russia.
Russia’s numerous disinformation attacks including support for white supremacist activities and attacks of Biden’s mental fitness were utilized by Donald Trump, senior Trump Administration officials, and his re-election campaign.
The Washington Post reported in April 2024 that the Russian foreign ministry was using disinformation to weaken Western countries, in particular the United States. The document was said to be the first official confirmation of such policies and The Washington Post observed Russian attempts to disrupt American and European domestic politics. It also said this was done to shift the balance of power to Russia and other Second World countries such as China, Iran, and North Korea. The Guardian reported Russia was seeking to spread conspiracy theories among the American far right to undermine support for Ukraine. Voice of America reported that Russian disinformation campaigns have focused on promoting American isolationism, tensions between various races as well as border security concerns. The Telegraph reported that Russia and China were promoting pro-Palestinian influencers in order to manipulate British public opinion in favor of Russian and Chinese interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_disinformation
This is standard practice for Russian foreign policy - essentially astroturfing on social media to create social disruption, while also specifically inflaming and amplifying existing groups of malcontents.
There’s a very rational reason for caring about one’s own home, and that’s the fact that you live there.
As opposed to your country, where you clearly don’t live?
The point is that there are motivations to improve one’s country that don’t come with all the baggage nationalism comes with (namely the fact that members of a nebulously defined “nation” are implicitly or explicitly elevated above all others).
An alternative view is that National Pride reduces people’s pressure to improve their country and especially reduces the pressure they put on the elites leading the country to improve it.
Certainly were I was born - Portugal - the peak time of celebrating the past glories of the country (basically, the stuff that happened during the age of maritime discovery) was during the Fascist Dictatorship, when the country was in such a bad state that it received Food Aid from the rest of Europe.
My own experience living in Britain also adds up to this impression: the people there who were most loudly proud of the country and its past where those doing the most to destroy it with Brexit.
A very similar effect is visible in the US - those who are loudest at harping about the greatness of the country are those helping the present day elites pillage it, de facto bringing it down (there is no such thing anymore as The American Dream).
In my experience National Pride isn’t an incentive to do better, it’s the very opposite.
it’s tribalism, and I hate to say it because people throw this phrase around too much but I genuinely believe it’s low IQ behavior
It is
It’s very easy to see who clings to this sort of shit
It’s people who have achieved nothing of actual value
I also want to emphasize that I don’t mean “community tribalism” as in social support groups, but more so “them vs us” world view, the exclusiveness aspect
Divide and conquer is one of the oldest tricks rulers use. the people cant stand up to you if they hate each other.
Understanding nationalism from a left perspective requires that we understand what a nation is. In Marxist theory, a nation is a “historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.” Nationalist movements are therefore struggles for sovereignty. Nationalism must be understood from its relation as a nation. Nationalism of oppressor nations and nationalism of oppressed nations are both struggles for sovereignty, the core difference being that oppressor nations have already gained the ability to determine their own future, and this progressive movement turns into its opposite, supremacy.
This is why we can say that the nationalist movements in Palestine, Ireland, indigenous Americans, and so forth are undoubtedly progressive in gaining that right to self-determination. This is also why we can say that Euro-American nationalism is a supremacist ideology. This is why nationalism can be difficult to understand in relation to internationalism, but the simple truth is that an internationalist stance requires the right of self-determination for all nations. This is the bedrock of internationalism and a greater international human identity. It isn’t an erasure of culture and national identity, but a celebration of all of them.
TL;DR: nationalist movements in oppressed nations like Palestine good, nationalist movements in oppressor nations like the US bad.
This is such neoliberal nonsense. I feel for you USians but to just attack the struggle for Irish independence is not the way to go. Please read a history book.
If you’ve done nothing for it, why are you personally proud of it?
It’s the people who fought for Irish Independence who should be proud, very proud, of it, not some rando who shares with them nothing other than, purely by chance, having been born in the geographical area others freed from the British yoke, and a rando who for all we know if they had been born back then would’ve sided with the Brits.
Be proud of what you’re doing now, not what totally different people did way back then. If you have no reasons to be proud of your own deeds, well then, that’s on you.
In the country I was born in, the most loud celebrations of past national glories were done during the time of the Fascist dictatorship, when the country was such a poor removed that it even got Food Aid from the rest of Europe. Interestingly, after the Revolution that brought Democracy, that stuff was seriously toned down.
National Pride is a scam to keep the plebes supporting whomever is in power now, long after the people that did the great deeds are dead and buried, as if the present day elites pillaging the leftover wealth of greater days when greater people built the country up are in any way, form or shape similar to those in power when the great deeds were done - Britain with their Empire and WWII obsessions is a great example of that.
I’m ashamed that my country 🇳🇱 just gave up and allowed the Nazis in. I’m proud that my country has succeeded in adding very progressive policies for poverty, work conditions, that pride can also be a source for inspiration.
The neoliberal movement of only thinking about one’s own actions and interests has gutted many social institutions and protections in my country.
I lived in The Netherlands for almost a decade (kan selfs nederlands spreeken)
There has been little to be proud of for the country in the last 2 decades or so - it has actually been going back in the good things it had.
Plenty of Dutch people still alive do have reason to be proud in what they did for the country 50 years ago or so, and I guess even today most should be proud on how Dutch culture is right now (most notably it’s openness and tolerance), because they ARE part of making it what it is everyday, yet in lots of things (Economics, Wealth Discrimination, Fairness even the Openness and Tolerance) as far as I can tell of late the place has just been going backwards, which is nothing to be proud of.
More broadly and as I mentioned before, in my experience National Pride is mainly used to suppress pressure on the governing elites to improve the country, which is why the Fascist dictator in my homeland - Portugal - was so incredibly big on celebrating great things that were done by completely different people 500 years ago.
My experience living in Britain is pretty similar - the very people fucking up the country by mismanaging it like crazy (most notably with Brexit) were the ones most loudly proud of the Empire and Britain’s role in WWII.
And, no, I’m not proud of my homeland, Portugal.
Eat shit Lee Greenwood and go fuck yourself.
Have you ever been to a cultural parade, even when you’re not part of that culture? They are so fun, especially if you’re only being accepted as the culture for a day or so. Some cultures are much more family oriented too, so they’re going to understand each other and rise above most things together. I get it.
Does that count for gay pride, though?
That’s more about pride in being resilient, kind to others, and true to one’s self in the face of discrimination, shame, and adversity.
What if people are proud of being resilient and kind to others as a nation?
Perhaps I’m understanding the original quote too narrowly, but this also seems different from pride in merely having been born a member of the nation.
Fuck off with your dog-whistle
No dogs, I’m legitimately asking.
Proud of surviving when being constantly told that you are an abomination, that you should not exist, that you should be killed because of some bronze-age fairytale, of managing to live a life where you will be discriminated against in workplaces, because of the sound of your voice, the way you dress, the way you walk, having to refer to the love of your life in gender-neutral terms until you know that you are talking to someone safe, the assumption that you are a paedophile, the constant threat of violence, the risk of being outed, constantly being questioned about whether it’s “just a phase”, the fact that you can’t get accommodation in some countries as a couple, how you might be able to get married in one country, but if you move to another, bizarrely your marriage won’t be recognised, yet you cannot get divorced,
It’s quite the list, and this barely scratches the surface
It does feel like if you switched the nouns to be black/Mexican/gay/trans this would read as hate speech.
I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, but this feels like the kind of railing against “identity politics,” that your crazy uncle spouts off at Thanksgiving.
Queer pride comes from a place of resilience in hate—that we keep on being, existing, thriving, even though there’s legislation and bad faith arguments and assholes and propaganda that undermines and demeans us.
Same thing could be said about a lot of nationalities, especially nations without a state, or captive under a hostile or indifferent one.
Palestinian pride is a real thing, and I hope they endure.
Irish is literally the first example Carlin lists and we lived with Britain spending 800 years trying to make us stop being Irish. Still can’t work with Brits without hearing casual slurs and stereotypes, but if Carlin had one blind spot it was his own privilege. A reminder he was human after all.
That makes sense, but I do have follow-on questions. Genuinely asking, not trying to be antagonistic.
Would you then say that gay pride is ridiculous in a nation that doesn’t have issues with hating gay people? Like, in a well run country where homophobia/transphobia is marginalized out, should gay pride be viewed the same as having Irish pride?
The argument against that in my mind would be that it’s honoring the work of the people who came before who had to deal with historical bigotry. But I feel like the counter to that would be the Irish, in that they also had to deal with systematic bigotry in this country. We’re not so far gone from “No Irish Need Apply,” and people having to change their names to hide their Irish ancestry to find jobs.
A nation will always have issues with homophobia, because even if it’s not an enshrined position, it’s something that its constituent citizens can sometimes believe in.
I live in Portland, Oregon, and I deal with transphobia all the damn time. And yet I’m explicitly protected by the law, which doesn’t mean all that much at the end of the day.
Hence, trans pride.
But there is no un-hated group. Heck, there’s still a not insignificant portion of the population who hate the Irish/Catholics still. There is no group that isn’t hated by someone.
Hell, there are a not insignificant number of people who hate white people. Does that make it okay for them to be “proud of being white” just because some people hate them for it?
I don’t disagree that there will always be people who hate gay people. But I do think there are plenty of countries though where the percentage of the population that do is low. At least as low as those who hate whites/Catholics/etc.
When people have nothing to be proud of they will take anything they can get
People will apply this to something like gay pride, black pride, etc. But those forms of pride are about standing in opposition to prejudice, oppression, and hardship, where the inherent aspects of your existence are demonized, stereotyped, or seen as lesser. The pride is in making it through the world and accepting/celebrating yourself despite all the hate and dangers others force onto you.
Having pride in being part of a marginalized group isnt about feeling superior to other groups. It is about rebelling against those who feel themselves superior to you.
