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- cross-posted to:
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The belief that Israel’s actions amount to apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide are “worthy of respect in a democratic society”, an employment tribunal has concluded in a landmark decision.
That’s an awful lot of words to say “I don’t know what Zionism is”
Anti-zionism isn’t opposition to Israel or Israelis existing. It’s opposition to Israel existing as a colonial apartheid ethnostate that oppresses everyone not of the favored ethnicity and religion.
Did you check the first reference to the article you linked. There is a less modern , more widely used prior definition that just explain what zionism is. Zionism is just thinking israel as a state can exist. If you oppose the existance of a state with one of the strongest military in the world , chance is you might have to fight some people. Maybe you guys dont agree on the same definition of zionism. Antisemitism seems to do that. I cant care less about israel existing or not , or is it legitimate. Im just saying they arnt going to agree to leave their country. You guys are delusionnal.
And yes . By EVERY DEFINITION, really every, antizionnism oppose the state of israelnas a concept. Two state solution still imply zionism. You guys discovered this conflict last years and still need some catch up.
Nope. That’s what AIPAC, ADL, and other de facto Israeli government agencies want people to think so they can tar everyone who’s against the genocidal apartheid state as the genocidal ones.
I specifically said that that’s not what anti-zionism is. Are you just going to ignore everything I tell you that doesn’t fit your Hasbara gaslighting narrative?
Because your definition is a gross oversimplification used for propaganda purposes and doesn’t describe what we’re against.
And there we go with the “being against the actions of the state of Israel must mean you hate all Jewish people” bullshit.
You know what’s ACTUALLY antisemitic? Conflating all Jewish people with a fascist apartheid regime that many if not most Jewish people don’t approve of, let alone consider themselves represented by it.
Nobody is asking them to. Please stow your army of strawmen.
This you?
That’s just flat out false. Zionism is a political ideology, not a country.
You might as well say that republicanism (in the original definition of “against monarchy”) is opposition to the states of England, Denmark, and Spain existing.
removed, please. I’ve been arguing for the human rights of Palestinians and against the atrocities of the fascist apartheid regime since before the Oslo Accords. I bet you weren’t even alive back then, based on the level of maturity you’re displaying.
Point by point argument only make sense if you bring some evidence to your claim. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
The definition seems to make different sense depending who read it. It appear that we cant even come to an agreement about the foundation of our argument. I dont advocate for an israel state , i dont think it was particulary fair as a decision , i would be antizionnist by this definition. But ultimately i dont care enough to choose a side because i heard about this conflict from my early childhood and it never trully changed.
But my point is more anti zionnism is by definition , originaly, historicaly and etymologicaly ; anti israel. And if you want a two state solution you accept the existense of a zionist state. So you cant be anti zionnist and for a two state solution. As for your age and your militantism you cant bullshit anyone. There is no way someone so deep into this modern rhetoric would have an history of following this conflict. 15 years ago anti zionnist was asking for the end of israel and it was possible to still make a difference with antisemitism. Even though it was more of a conceptual stance as everyone agreed about the implication. Now the separation is way more blurry with modern polarization of opinion.
I still dont see what is the possible outcome of this conflict if we start reconsidering the existence of israel as an ethnostate. You are basically cornering ideological radicalized zealot into a total war solution. They have a lot of power and will use it to serve their ideology. And it isnt even a two state solution. You seems to think this world will somve this issue peacefully when both side are radicalized beyond any turning point.
Point by point is an aid to us both: it makes it clear exactly what I’m talking about when and it’s also a way for me to organize my thoughts rather than try to think of everything simultaneously.
Nope. You can repeat it all you want, it still won’t be true.
A two state solution wouldn’t work since Israel won’t be stopped by national borders. See for example the current invasion of Lebanon.
The only way there’s going to be any hope of peace is one state with equal rights and safety for all.
Dismantling the current Israeli and Gazan governments and prosecuting their leaders for war crimes would be necessary to achieve that.
As would a weapons embargo against the fascist Israeli government.
I’m 41 and a pacifist. I keep up with the times (including the most accurate descriptive terms and turns of phrase). I also haven’t been eating Hasbara for breakfast every day of my life.
I’m guessing neither is the case with you, based on your repetition of stale talking points that used to do the trick back when all dissent was suppressed but don’t now.
The end of Israeli oppression is not the same thing as the end of Israeli existence. Much as Zionist propagandists like to pretend so, Israel can exist without being an oppressive ethnostate.
It’s the oppression including the violent displacement that’s the problem, not the mere existence of the country. Always has been. And that’s never been possible to confuse for antisemitism unless you’re brainwashed by Hasbara gaslighting.
No. You’re seeing more pushback and people voicing vehement opposition to atrocities and are confusing well-founded anger with bigoted hatred. That’s a YOU problem.
Same as with Apartheid South Africa: before the inherently oppressive current system is replaced, peace isn’t possible.
Like South Africa, Israel will continue to exist, but in a more just and equitable version.
Nope. Apartheid South Africa was overthrown by a combination of international and domestic pressure without anything resembling a “total war solution” and so can the fascist apartheid regime of Israel.
Most of which is granted to them by the West im the form of weapons, financial aid, and political cover. Take that away, make Israel a pariah state like SA was, and suddenly it’s much more difficult to keep up the worst campaign of atrocities the world has seen in this century.
We’ve done it before in my lifetime and we can do it again.
Guess what? War criminals being deposed and put on trial tends to go some way towards calming things down.
Palestinians are radicalized by the Israeli government slaughtering and displacing all their friends and relatives while those who survive don’t even get to be citizens of the country that controls their fate, let alone have equal rights.
Unless you have anything else add beyond more repetitions of falsehoods and denials of reality, we’re done here.