Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.
And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.
It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.
You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.
You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.
Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.
Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.
I didn’t set a goal to pitch something better, I just pointed the fact that we use unoptimized hardware and hopefully somebody is working on something better.
What do you imagine being better though? Like just in general? Some sort of gamepad that has directionals that you use in your left hand while you use the mouse with your right? Something totally different? Like what else is there?
In the very least, something more rounded and ergonomic than a row of buttons, something that lays out the buttons in such a way that they are more easily reachable without moving or contorting your hand. Fewer buttons for the pinky, more buttons for the thumb, which is now pretty much only used to hit spacebar. Maybe a big analog stick that sits under your palm, so you can tilt your entire hand to move (IDK how how useful that would be, but you wanted me to imagine something), leaving your fingers free to perform other actions.
Might as well throw in a full body haptic feedback suit with a built in fleshlight. In all seriousness idk wtf I’m even arguing about anymore in this thread. Keyboard is totally fine.
A lack of analog controls is definitely an issue. Having digital buttons on keys that are either 100% on or off loses a ton of fine control.
Playing GTA and need to make a slight left while driving? On a gamepad you just slightly tilt the stick left to make a smooth turn. On keyboard you have to do a bunch of short little taps on A (and D when you inevitably oversteer) to stop yourself from jerking the wheel left.
I remember really wanting a Logitech G13 when they came out but I could never justify spending the money on one.
For movement I would take something like a HOTAS over keyboard. For example in games with multiple movement speeds finding the right speed is rather cumbersome on keyboard because the key press is an on/off and not a scale.
Similarly on keyboard movement is restricted to 8 directions. If you need to move in some other direction most people actually use a mouse to compensate for the lack of movement options because it’s too cumbersome with a keyboard.
There are benefits to using keyboards but there are places where you can use something better. Analogue input simply gives better movement options.
For precise inputs keyboards are really good, stuff like tactical shooters, a lot of custom fighting game controllers are basically just paired down keyboards too.
Keyboards are pretty fucking cool, analog sticks are easy to use and good if you need the 360 degree movement, but otherwise keyboards all the way.
You’re misinterpreting my point. We can make a device with precise inputs that isn’t a flat slab of buttons, we just haven’t yet. This is not a gamepad vs. KBM argument.
As you mentioned, it’s still a slab, that is only good for a few genres of games. Basically, a flat controller without the analog sticks, which is opposite of ergonomic, and you don’t use that with a mouse.
Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.
Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?
Huh? On non-gamepad games (i.e. Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game) Keyboard is completely fine. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
This is the first time in my life I’ve ever heard this opinion lol.
Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.
And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.
It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.
You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.
You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.
Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.
Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.
Okay. Well pitch something better then. I’m genuinely interested. I’m not trying to be aggressive.
I didn’t set a goal to pitch something better, I just pointed the fact that we use unoptimized hardware and hopefully somebody is working on something better.
What do you imagine being better though? Like just in general? Some sort of gamepad that has directionals that you use in your left hand while you use the mouse with your right? Something totally different? Like what else is there?
In the very least, something more rounded and ergonomic than a row of buttons, something that lays out the buttons in such a way that they are more easily reachable without moving or contorting your hand. Fewer buttons for the pinky, more buttons for the thumb, which is now pretty much only used to hit spacebar. Maybe a big analog stick that sits under your palm, so you can tilt your entire hand to move (IDK how how useful that would be, but you wanted me to imagine something), leaving your fingers free to perform other actions.
There are ergonomic keyboards for those that want them. Look up something like the “Glove80” Keyboard.
Power Glove and Mouse obviously
Might as well throw in a full body haptic feedback suit with a built in fleshlight. In all seriousness idk wtf I’m even arguing about anymore in this thread. Keyboard is totally fine.
Per their original comment, they aren’t saying mouse is bad. Their problem is with the keyboard.
Why are you bringing up the mouse again?
I also disagree with the keyboard comment. I see no issue with it and I don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse.
A lack of analog controls is definitely an issue. Having digital buttons on keys that are either 100% on or off loses a ton of fine control.
Playing GTA and need to make a slight left while driving? On a gamepad you just slightly tilt the stick left to make a smooth turn. On keyboard you have to do a bunch of short little taps on A (and D when you inevitably oversteer) to stop yourself from jerking the wheel left.
I remember really wanting a Logitech G13 when they came out but I could never justify spending the money on one.
For movement I would take something like a HOTAS over keyboard. For example in games with multiple movement speeds finding the right speed is rather cumbersome on keyboard because the key press is an on/off and not a scale.
Similarly on keyboard movement is restricted to 8 directions. If you need to move in some other direction most people actually use a mouse to compensate for the lack of movement options because it’s too cumbersome with a keyboard.
There are benefits to using keyboards but there are places where you can use something better. Analogue input simply gives better movement options.
For precise inputs keyboards are really good, stuff like tactical shooters, a lot of custom fighting game controllers are basically just paired down keyboards too.
Keyboards are pretty fucking cool, analog sticks are easy to use and good if you need the 360 degree movement, but otherwise keyboards all the way.
You’re misinterpreting my point. We can make a device with precise inputs that isn’t a flat slab of buttons, we just haven’t yet. This is not a gamepad vs. KBM argument.
that’s a hitbox, you’re talking about a hitbox
which is just a slab with less buttons on it
As you mentioned, it’s still a slab, that is only good for a few genres of games. Basically, a flat controller without the analog sticks, which is opposite of ergonomic, and you don’t use that with a mouse.
Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.
You misread my comment. I’m saying Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game. I updated the comment for clarity. I see how it wasn’t clear, my bad.
Oh nvm yes I misread
Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?
Although his opinion is unpopular and you may have not of heard of it, that fact has precisely zero to do with its truthfulness and validity
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses” - Henry Ford