I have been seeing plenty of guillhotine and mollotov jokes here, and as the title says, punching nazis.
I’ve been reading a book about nonviolence and anarchism, and he basically shows how we shouldn’t use violence, even in extreme cases (like neo nazis).
The main argument is that the means dictates the ends, so if we want a non violent (and non opressing) society, punching people won’t help.
And if it is just a joke, you should probably know that some people have been jailed for decades because of jokes like these (see: avoiding the fbi, second chapter of the book above).
Obviously im up for debate, or else I wouldn’t make this post. And yes, I do stand for nonviolence.
(english is not my first language, im sorry if I made errors, or wansn’t clear.)
(if this is not pertinent, I can remake this post in c/politics or something)
(the book is The Anarchist Cookbook by Keith McHenry, if you are downloading from the internet, make sure you download it from the correct author, there is another book with the same name.)
You’re arguing from the belief that Nazis would give you the same benefit of a doubt that you’re giving them. Then tying yourself up in knots to justify that naive assertion. Then strawmanning others in this thread and calling them naive in turn. Do you also project films as well? If so may I request “The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari” ?
Don’t get me wrong, I know they won’t afford me the same benefit of the doubt. It just hasn’t yet been evidenced to me that punching nazis actually creates less and not more. So I find it kind of amusing I get these unsubstantiated claims of straw-men despite one’s own massive amount of deflection to my points.
You really want to stop the nazis? Quit the IAmVeryBadass bullshit about punching nazis — instead, get off your ass and go punch on doors by canvassing and getting out the vote. Your time will be better served than this romanticizing of punching a nazi online when you’ll never do it anyway.
That’s literally strawmanning.
My argument is that you don’t understand the phrase or it’s history. It’s not literally punching anyone who I think “might” be a Nazi. Also you may want to look deeper into my comment history. I do not romantisize violence. I do however mock and deride language where a nazi or fascist might hide. Much like your defense of a Nazis’ right to exist.
It would be a pretty easy argumentative strategy to simply accuse everything as being a straw-man when your arguments are repeatedly, consistently undermined by both facts and sources. At this point, I feel like I’m having a discussion with a Trump supporter the hop-scotch deflection is so profound.
I explained in detail that I know the phrase and its history better than you; that you haven’t evinced a cogent counterargument is not my problem.
Notice: I am STILL waiting for any semblance of evidence that “Punching a nazi,” actually reduces radicalization in any way. Several comments and nothing.
So in the meantime and until you actually produce said evidence, if you want to stop fascists then just get off your computer and go ask your local Democratic campaign what you can do to stop Trump. $10 they won’t say, “Punch a nazi” is the most effective use of your time. After all, you don’t want to be a convicted felon prior to November, do you?
Now that is a straw-man; and unlike you, I will actually back up the reason why: I never defended Nazi’s right to exist; to the contrary and on the record, I’d much rather they not exist — but since at least me and the other user have established that we aren’t going to utilize genocide to get to that point, let alone exclaim that justifies their actions, then we need put our little thinking caps on and figure out more constructive ways at deprogramming them. I’m betting you didn’t even watch that Ted talk, did you? Finally, I don’t mind mockery; I mind preemptive physical violence. Therein lies the difference.
The miles of text you’ve written. Your assumption that the violence is preemptive. Your lack of questions of my motives, nor any attempt at discourse tells me that there is no “proof” that will satisfy you.
You have your liberal viewpoint that discourse will convince the Nazi that they need not be so evil. I can simply leglislate this problem away! Like Germany! Look at the AFD they’re no nazi!
Or maybe we can just debate JD Vance and that’ll stop the bomb threats in Springfield. They must listen to reason!
You’re naive, you don’t know my history or lived experience and you don’t care.
You’re not my audience, you may as well be an LLM or a useful idiot easily swayed by manufactured consent. There are no facts or reason that will change your mind.
I’m hear to provide a loud counterpoint to the rhetoric that got us here in the first place.
You do not understand Fascists nor do you understand anti-fascists. You understand reasonable people who commit rational acts and you are completely out of your element. That’s fine. Nobody is asking you to punch a Nazi. Plenty will do it for you.
Fascists and Nazis start off as weird outsiders that find solace and comfort in male power fantasy. You want to get rid of fascists? Get rid of the systemic forces that breed them, wealth inequality, underfunded education, dwindling employment and low pay.
If you want to fix that, go back into the 80’s and vote Reagan out of office, oh shit I meant Nixon, No no I meant Humphrey, or was it Jackson? Oh no of course it was Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion that’s it.
We have Nazis now, this requires direct action and strong rhetoric. I’m not talking about accelerationism I’m talking about direct community action and counter protest.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/2/21/us-anti-fascists-we-can-make-racists-afraid-again
You vote. That’s good. You debate and reason, even better. But once they’re a fucking Nazi all they understand is Nazi shit.
You don’t walk in my circles. You’ve already convinced yourself of your convictions. You’re a safe nonviolent upstanding member of society.
https://www.bustle.com/p/this-martin-luther-king-jr-quote-on-white-moderates-is-seriously-striking-a-chord-7913411
None of these sources are for you, you’re not the intended audience. You don’t understand my situation.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2008389118
Every year this past decade more totalitarian states gain traction
https://education.cfr.org/learn/learning-journey/what-does-fascism-really-mean/laws-norms-and-democratic-backsliding
Every year the FBI report more domestic terrorists, but the numbers never seem to go down and I never seem to read about any raids
https://www.gao.gov/blog/rising-threat-domestic-terrorism-u.s.-and-federal-efforts-combat-it
Edit: You’ve made yourself a straw man. Defined only by rhetoric with no personal experience. Only the reason and appropriate logic you’ve been taught. That’s fine, you have your place. But it’s not here friend.
God, thank you. Arguing with libs is exhausting. They are completely unable to imagine that there are people who (due to social forces/their upbringing) can not be reached and just need to be silenced.
I’ve been reading your responses and you’ve definitely put in your time.
But I do a little trolling when the centrists and liberals pop up. It’s good to hear their latest talking points. Can’t just argue the same old shit all the time.
Pot, meet kettle. What if I told you that you’re engaging in just as much gish gallopping straw-man discourse as you misconstrue my own arguments all the same? Seems quite clear, but I’m sure you’ll just conveniently cast aside any rebuttal as more straw-man. Convenient.
No, I didn’t say we can always legislate the problem away — I merely said punching a Nazis isn’t proven to be a better solution
No, I didn’t say that debating JD vance will stop bomb threats (weird tangential straw-man) — I merely said that punching nazis isn’t proven to be a better solution.
These are, in fact, demonstrable straw-men to my arguments. (Say, how about we grow up and skip the whole straw-men deflective tropes?)
Ultimately: You Still. Haven’t. Provided. A Single. Modicum. Of Evidence. That Punching Nazis. Reduces Nazis. That’s it. Nothing more
Also, it’s incredibly interesting that suddenly you’re trying to shy away from the notion of punching a nazi isn’t preemptive. Quite intriguing. If you actually believed this, then we wouldn’t even have much issue.
I think it’s really interesting you claim yourself to be an expert on this matter of fascism while exclaiming I am not; tell me, what are your credentials? What makes you think that? I’m not seeing any groundbreaking counter-arguments being presented here. I’m not seeing a single piece of evidence proving your case that “Punch a Nazi” is wise.
I don’t disagree with this.
There are literal organizations for people who’ve been duped by this shit and got out run by the very guys who got out of it.. The problem is your claim is just not true. Once you’re Nazi, it doesn’t mean you’re always a Nazi. But do yourself a favor and ask the founder of that organization what he thinks of the Punch a Nazi movement and whether it’s effective. Considering they once were one, they probably have a bit more insight, don’t you think? I’ll wait.
Like I get it, I hate the scum too. From Boogaloo to Proud Boys to Oathkeepers to 1%ers to the base and so on… These people, uh, let’s just say aren’t deep thinkers. Yes, there are fuckwits across the globe from Russia to Germany. Yet there is a method to off-ramp these people from their path of radicalization, and I have yet to see any evidence that this “Punch a Nazi” thing reduces their numbers and doesn’t actually increase recruitment. The key is indeed making a more compelling case both to the fence sitters, as well as sincerely reaching out.
Anyways, interesting conversation. Life and kids call and I think we’ve exhausted the points we both wanted to make.
Oh no! Your social normative life pulls you away from the vocal and unfazed radical, however will we survive without your reasoned and heady logic?!?!
Oh no! Your pissing into the wind and tilting at windmills from your computer chair is really fighting the good fight, buddy! I’m sure you’re totally punching nazis you total badass, you ;)
Oh shit you’re still here! Who’s watching the wife and kids? Your reformed Nazi friends?