The ship is sinking, and I’m saying, “We have to plug these holes,” and the liberals respond, “It’s actually really antisemitic for you to say the holes exist, and if you try to fix them we’ll break your legs.” And so, what can I do except rip planks off so I at least have something to cling to when it all goes down?
Holy shit, I love that analogy.
All in all, I mostly agree with your comment. I also advocate for third-party voting, like I said before, to signal what you do want. I don’t believe that defeat is inevitable, and I agree that structural change is necessary, whether by propping up the progressive wing within the Democratic Party or by propping progressive movements outside of it.
Our disagreement on methods is effectively just about the federal level in swing states, where I believe that the risk for a Spoiler Effect and stakes for loss are too high to justify the signalling value, particularly since the Dem leadership seems to habitually (or intentionally) “misunderstand” any close call and run away in the wrong direction instead of figuring out how to win votes.
Hence my suggestion to build the foundation for that change from the bottom up: You won’t topple the tip while its base stands firm, but if that base starts shaking or shifting, the top will have to follow.
This is where my grudge lies primarily with the (voluntary) non-voters, as well as those who advocate for not voting at all, which is also why my understanding of your position fundamentally pivoted when I realised that that’s not actually your stance. To vote third party and send a signal is far more valuable than to not vote at all. It is a form of protest, rather than indifference.
Our disagreement is a nuance, but in the end, we want the same thing, and I respect your stance and integrity all the same.
Thank you, I’m glad we could reach an understanding.
My view on that is that voting in a presidential election (especially if you’re not in a swing state) is primarily performative and an expression of loyalty, rather than actually influencing the outcome. The presidential race is, unfortunately, the only thing anybody cares about. I voted for democratic candidates in downballot races, where my vote is far more likely to matter, but nobody I talk to cares about that, at all.
The fact that this is the way that everyone engages with politics and forms their political identities makes me see it as all the more important to make a point of voting third party in presidential elections, as part of defining myself and my positions as distinct from the democrats. I sometimes feel that people use the talking point of third parties starting small in local races as a way to shove them into something they don’t give two shits about so they can stop thinking about them entirely. Because presidential races are such a spectacle, the primary way in which people engage in politics, I view it as necessary to engage with them on that front.
If someone makes a big deal out of my third party vote (particularly in a safe state, like most Americans), that’s a clear sign to me that their perspective is all out of whack. And conveniently, they tend to come at me for it, which gives me a perfect window to criticize their views.
My view on that is that voting in a presidential election (especially if you’re not in a swing state) is primarily performative and an expression of loyalty, rather than actually influencing the outcome.
This “team loyalty” shit beyond all nuance and reason is a blight anyway. If it wasn’t stupid enough in sports or fandoms, it definitely would be in politics.
I wish third parties had received more visibility and significance long before this crap got so out of hand. I also wish FPTP would become an important part of the history of democracy, as a case study how enfranchisement alone doesn’t make a fair democracy, with the emphasis being history as in “no longer present”.
The presidential race is, unfortunately, the only thing anybody cares about.
I sometimes feel that people use the talking point of third parties starting small in local races as a way to shove them into something they don’t give two shits about so they can stop thinking about them entirely.
I feel like caring about elections at every level is a civic responsibility, and it saddens me to see that many people are so apathetic about it.
Holy shit, I love that analogy.
All in all, I mostly agree with your comment. I also advocate for third-party voting, like I said before, to signal what you do want. I don’t believe that defeat is inevitable, and I agree that structural change is necessary, whether by propping up the progressive wing within the Democratic Party or by propping progressive movements outside of it.
Our disagreement on methods is effectively just about the federal level in swing states, where I believe that the risk for a Spoiler Effect and stakes for loss are too high to justify the signalling value, particularly since the Dem leadership seems to habitually (or intentionally) “misunderstand” any close call and run away in the wrong direction instead of figuring out how to win votes.
Hence my suggestion to build the foundation for that change from the bottom up: You won’t topple the tip while its base stands firm, but if that base starts shaking or shifting, the top will have to follow.
This is where my grudge lies primarily with the (voluntary) non-voters, as well as those who advocate for not voting at all, which is also why my understanding of your position fundamentally pivoted when I realised that that’s not actually your stance. To vote third party and send a signal is far more valuable than to not vote at all. It is a form of protest, rather than indifference.
Our disagreement is a nuance, but in the end, we want the same thing, and I respect your stance and integrity all the same.
Thank you, I’m glad we could reach an understanding.
My view on that is that voting in a presidential election (especially if you’re not in a swing state) is primarily performative and an expression of loyalty, rather than actually influencing the outcome. The presidential race is, unfortunately, the only thing anybody cares about. I voted for democratic candidates in downballot races, where my vote is far more likely to matter, but nobody I talk to cares about that, at all.
The fact that this is the way that everyone engages with politics and forms their political identities makes me see it as all the more important to make a point of voting third party in presidential elections, as part of defining myself and my positions as distinct from the democrats. I sometimes feel that people use the talking point of third parties starting small in local races as a way to shove them into something they don’t give two shits about so they can stop thinking about them entirely. Because presidential races are such a spectacle, the primary way in which people engage in politics, I view it as necessary to engage with them on that front.
If someone makes a big deal out of my third party vote (particularly in a safe state, like most Americans), that’s a clear sign to me that their perspective is all out of whack. And conveniently, they tend to come at me for it, which gives me a perfect window to criticize their views.
This “team loyalty” shit beyond all nuance and reason is a blight anyway. If it wasn’t stupid enough in sports or fandoms, it definitely would be in politics.
I wish third parties had received more visibility and significance long before this crap got so out of hand. I also wish FPTP would become an important part of the history of democracy, as a case study how enfranchisement alone doesn’t make a fair democracy, with the emphasis being history as in “no longer present”.
I feel like caring about elections at every level is a civic responsibility, and it saddens me to see that many people are so apathetic about it.