You dont get those changes by just blindly voting against the Republicans. You have to actually pressure your candidates into supporting what you want. Companies and lobbiests are able to do this with giant sacks of cash. Normal people do it by protesting and making demands of their officials to force a response. Showing nothing but contempt for anti-war protests is always a bad look for a president running for reelection.
Biden has all the leverage on Israel to make them stop the killing. He can threaten to pull military aid, send in US forces to distribute humanitarian aid, or put sanctions on Israel. All of those would stop the killing, making people angry at the US response willing to vote for Biden, paving a path for his re-election. Why are you so against him forcing Israel to stop the genocide if it is his only path to victory?
Because it’s not his only path to victory, and it’s not even certain that it IS a path to victory. A majority of DEMOCRATS, much less the general public, still approve of the current level of support to Israel or support INCREASED support to Israel.
Do I want Biden to pull out of Israel? Yes. Do I understand why the strategic political reasons why it’s not being done, other than Biden being an old dinosaur? Also yes. Do I think that welcoming Trump into the White House will improve the matter? Fuck no.
Those voters who approve of funding Israel’s genocide should really suck it up and vote for Biden even if he slashes funding. After all they aren’t crazy “tankies” who would dare withhold their vote because they don’t approve of what he’s doing.
Those voters who approve of funding Israel’s genocide should really suck it up and vote for Biden even if he slashes funding.
Absolutely they should. And absolutely I removed out anyone who thinks that Biden ‘not being pro-Israel enough’ is a reason not to vote for him as a fascist enabler, at minimum.
After all they aren’t crazy “tankies” who would dare withhold their vote because they don’t approve of what he’s doing.
No, they tend to be fascists and theocrats instead who will gleefully withhold their vote, just as tankies do.
This is what democracy looks like. Fighting to keep a coalition of unlike people together because the alternative is getting something that’s worse on every fucking level.
I take it you’d have a problem with people calling the Democratic party fascist but you seem to think such a significant part of their base is fascist that they have to implement fascist policy to appease them. What is that if not fascism? If the DNC actually has morals they’d amputate that part of their base and appeal to new voters because they look less ghoulish. If the Democrats lose it isn’t going to be because a few online leftist withheld their vote, it’s going to be because they failed to get any fresh voter turnout. A third of Americans don’t vote, and a larger portion of that third is young and PoC, more likely to be strongly against the genocide.
I take it you’d have a problem with people calling the Democratic party fascist but you seem to think such a significant part of their base is fascist that they have to implement fascist policy to appease them.
A significant part of the American electorate supports fascist policies, specifically, with regards to Israel. We can debate the causes all day long, but the fact remains.
What is that if not fascism?
Democracy. As it is necessarily compromise with the will of the majority.
If the DNC actually has morals they’d amputate that part of their base and appeal to new voters because they look less ghoulish.
If the DNC had morals, they’d lose, huh? Yeah, Trump rounding up people into concentration camps AND funding Israeli genocide looks much better. /s
A third of Americans don’t vote, and a larger portion of that third is young and PoC, more likely to be strongly against the genocide.
So, your plan is that, if the Dems take one of the least important issues to voters (yes, including young voters), radically change it to alienate their most reliable demographics to appeal to their least reliable demographics, that is the real path to victory?
How do you ever expect to get new voters if you only pay attention to what your base wants? And why do you think most of the Democrats who support Israel are bloodthirsty fascists who will switch their vote to Trump if Biden changes course on the matter? These political parties have had major shifts in the past and it can happen again. That’s why I think one of the most important things we can do is shift people’s ideology through protest and conversation. If America is so conservative we will never get anywhere by just showing up to vote and doing nothing else.
You are emphasizing the need to win the election as if it is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else. But under that view we shouldn’t even politically engage with people who are already planning to vote blue because we might make them change their minds. It’s important to instill voters and non voters alike with more progressive values, even if it threatens to make them vote in a way we don’t want. I don’t even believe the DNC believes in winning elections over all else, if something would win them votes but upset their benefactors in another way for example it might be off the table. The DNC doesn’t believe in things like harm reduction, they are playing a completely different strategy game than voters are. Trust me, they are not funding Israel because they believe it is what they must do in order to stop concentration camps.
How do you ever expect to get new voters if you only pay attention to what your base wants?
Man, liberals are the Democratic base.
And why do you think most of the Democrats who support Israel are bloodthirsty fascists who will switch their vote to Trump if Biden changes course on the matter?
I don’t. I simply think they’re of a demographic that votes more often, and thus, there is a strategic consideration which is not unreasonable to mull over, that a change in Biden’s position will not necessarily be a net gain in voters.
That’s why I think one of the most important things we can do is shift people’s ideology through protest and conversation. If America is so conservative we will never get anywhere by just showing up to vote and doing nothing else.
Man, I absolutely agree with that. I say time and time again that the positions of absolutism so many progressives want to take are only going to be viable with a LOT of fucking groundwork.
30 years ago, supporting gay marriage was a death sentence for a national political career. But if progressives got together in the 90s and said “We aren’t going to support anyone EXCEPT candidates who support gay marriage”, LGBT rights would not be as firmly placed as they are today.
You can’t win every battle immediately, and that’s what I’m arguing against. If you don’t win the battle to change US policy on Palestine before the election, the alternative is not, should not, and must not be “Well, it’s okay if Trump wins, then”, because that will do everything BUT move us in the right direction.
You are emphasizing the need to win the election as if it is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else.
Considering the consequences of this election, it absolutely is. Have you not been following the whole MAGA movement and the GOP these past few years? We had to fend off an autocoup in 2021, and its only gotten worse. This election is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else, unless you’re fine with never have a say again in a fascist-controlled regime.
The DNC doesn’t believe in things like harm reduction, they are playing a completely different strategy game than voters are. Trust me, they are not funding Israel because they believe it is what they must do in order to stop concentration camps.
The DNC isn’t planning on destroying the last pieces of democracy in America, though, so regardless of their reasons for funding Israel, they’re the superior choice to the RNC, which is in favor of funding Israel and dismantling US democracy.
You guys spend so much of your time trying to convince peaceful people to support genocidal actions instead of supporting the warhawks changing to peace.
You are choosing to spend your time supporting genocidal actions instead of supporting rejecting them.
We do, however, need to minimize the cheap talking points you parrot, like Republicans chanting “RAISE THE TERROR ALERT” in 2004 like it fucking meant something, in order to avoid low-information voters being swayed into voting in favor of fascism like you lot want.
To all the people supporting genocidal actions, we do no give a fuck what you think.
When you decide that you are not ok with sending more bombs to continue killing children then we can talk.
Until then I hope you all experience exactly what you want other people to.
So when members of Hamas, the current representative government of Gaza, talk about the genocide of the Jews, you say…?
Me, personally, I say that wishing democide on a population is fucking horrendous regardless of what that population supports, but I understand you tankies adore bloodshed more than I do.
I have very clearly said multiple times in the past that hummus are a bunch of tunnel rats whose extinction won’t bother me in the slightest, same for the IDF, maybe one day we will be able to respect Israel again, but they have managed to turn my default view of Israelis from neutral to negative.
Tell me you’re white and know you’re not gonna be the one who actually burns without telling me you’re white and know you’re not gonna be the one who actually burns.
You’re saying that you are ok with Israel slaughtering Palestinians so long as you can continue your standard of living. “Never Again” doesn’t have a secret clause saying we shouldn’t stop genocide if it means people may be harmed in the process.
You don’t want Trump to take over the US and institute his fascist policies? You should be leaning on the Democrats to actually try and stop him, rather than going after those who are trying to actually stop fascism as it pops up.
“We think any amount of genocide is unacceptable, that’s why we think it is imperative to threaten the democrats with the possibility of letting more genocide happen here too if they don’t stop supporting genocide, and shut up it’s not supporting genocide when we do it because we’re right!”
The Israeli government has said they want to remove every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank. There is literally no more genocide that is able to happen right now
Where have i said that I support doubling down? People thinkthat their vote doesn’t matter as is. And asking someone who is already apathetic to voting to vote for someone who supports genocide isn’t going to make them want to vote any more. It’s a rigged game so they won’t play. You should be mad at Biden for not trying to engage with those voters and instead locking them up and using police violence against them.
There are two choices in this coming election, effectively. Trump or Biden.
If one loses, the other wins.
You want to guess what contributing to Biden’s loss will cause?
Go ahead. Take a few swings.
And asking someone who is already apathetic to voting to vote for someone who supports genocide isn’t going to make them want to vote any more
Someone who is already apathetic to voting is already not a very good target for voting outreach. You’re not really making “Have the least reliable voting bloc since we started tracking such things be the lynchpin of the strategy to defeat fascism” sound any more reasonable than it was previously.
It’s a rigged game so they won’t play.
If they think it’s a rigged game, what benefit will appealing to their desired policies have?
You should be mad at Biden for not trying to engage with those voters and instead locking them up and using police violence against them.
Oh God, not this line again. It doesn’t matter that Biden at no point has advocated the use of police violence against peaceful protesters, he’s definitely the one behind local police continuing the policy of being absolute shitheads, as they have for the past [checks notes] century and a half of US policing.
Yes, there are two choices. So i support people who are trying to make the less terrible one better. Meanwhile you want people to just shit up and support genocide.
Meanwhile you want people to just shit up and support genocide.
Oh, is that what I want? I guess calling the Israeli genocide a genocide and advocating for the total removal of US aid from Israel is support of genocide.
Or is it because I don’t regard Trump as winning as a reasonable alternative to Biden that makes me a genocide supporter?
My payment is me and people I care about not being rounded up, tortured, expelled, or executed at some point during a second Trump administration. It’s very valuable to me.
I don’t give a fuck that the DNC is filled with listless, lazy, complacent, corrupt shitheads, because ‘punishing’ them for that by putting a metaphorical gun to my head and blowing my brains out just doesn’t seem like a good calculus, especially since fascist regimes always have a place for listless, lazy, complacent, corrupt shitheads anyway, so it wouldn’t be much of a punishment for the worst amongst them.
You dont get those changes by just blindly voting against the Republicans. You have to actually pressure your candidates into supporting what you want. Companies and lobbiests are able to do this with giant sacks of cash. Normal people do it by protesting and making demands of their officials to force a response. Showing nothing but contempt for anti-war protests is always a bad look for a president running for reelection.
Biden has all the leverage on Israel to make them stop the killing. He can threaten to pull military aid, send in US forces to distribute humanitarian aid, or put sanctions on Israel. All of those would stop the killing, making people angry at the US response willing to vote for Biden, paving a path for his re-election. Why are you so against him forcing Israel to stop the genocide if it is his only path to victory?
Because it’s not his only path to victory, and it’s not even certain that it IS a path to victory. A majority of DEMOCRATS, much less the general public, still approve of the current level of support to Israel or support INCREASED support to Israel.
Do I want Biden to pull out of Israel? Yes. Do I understand why the strategic political reasons why it’s not being done, other than Biden being an old dinosaur? Also yes. Do I think that welcoming Trump into the White House will improve the matter? Fuck no.
Those voters who approve of funding Israel’s genocide should really suck it up and vote for Biden even if he slashes funding. After all they aren’t crazy “tankies” who would dare withhold their vote because they don’t approve of what he’s doing.
Absolutely they should. And absolutely I removed out anyone who thinks that Biden ‘not being pro-Israel enough’ is a reason not to vote for him as a fascist enabler, at minimum.
No, they tend to be fascists and theocrats instead who will gleefully withhold their vote, just as tankies do.
This is what democracy looks like. Fighting to keep a coalition of unlike people together because the alternative is getting something that’s worse on every fucking level.
I take it you’d have a problem with people calling the Democratic party fascist but you seem to think such a significant part of their base is fascist that they have to implement fascist policy to appease them. What is that if not fascism? If the DNC actually has morals they’d amputate that part of their base and appeal to new voters because they look less ghoulish. If the Democrats lose it isn’t going to be because a few online leftist withheld their vote, it’s going to be because they failed to get any fresh voter turnout. A third of Americans don’t vote, and a larger portion of that third is young and PoC, more likely to be strongly against the genocide.
A significant part of the American electorate supports fascist policies, specifically, with regards to Israel. We can debate the causes all day long, but the fact remains.
Democracy. As it is necessarily compromise with the will of the majority.
If the DNC had morals, they’d lose, huh? Yeah, Trump rounding up people into concentration camps AND funding Israeli genocide looks much better. /s
So, your plan is that, if the Dems take one of the least important issues to voters (yes, including young voters), radically change it to alienate their most reliable demographics to appeal to their least reliable demographics, that is the real path to victory?
How do you ever expect to get new voters if you only pay attention to what your base wants? And why do you think most of the Democrats who support Israel are bloodthirsty fascists who will switch their vote to Trump if Biden changes course on the matter? These political parties have had major shifts in the past and it can happen again. That’s why I think one of the most important things we can do is shift people’s ideology through protest and conversation. If America is so conservative we will never get anywhere by just showing up to vote and doing nothing else.
You are emphasizing the need to win the election as if it is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else. But under that view we shouldn’t even politically engage with people who are already planning to vote blue because we might make them change their minds. It’s important to instill voters and non voters alike with more progressive values, even if it threatens to make them vote in a way we don’t want. I don’t even believe the DNC believes in winning elections over all else, if something would win them votes but upset their benefactors in another way for example it might be off the table. The DNC doesn’t believe in things like harm reduction, they are playing a completely different strategy game than voters are. Trust me, they are not funding Israel because they believe it is what they must do in order to stop concentration camps.
Man, liberals are the Democratic base.
I don’t. I simply think they’re of a demographic that votes more often, and thus, there is a strategic consideration which is not unreasonable to mull over, that a change in Biden’s position will not necessarily be a net gain in voters.
Man, I absolutely agree with that. I say time and time again that the positions of absolutism so many progressives want to take are only going to be viable with a LOT of fucking groundwork.
30 years ago, supporting gay marriage was a death sentence for a national political career. But if progressives got together in the 90s and said “We aren’t going to support anyone EXCEPT candidates who support gay marriage”, LGBT rights would not be as firmly placed as they are today.
You can’t win every battle immediately, and that’s what I’m arguing against. If you don’t win the battle to change US policy on Palestine before the election, the alternative is not, should not, and must not be “Well, it’s okay if Trump wins, then”, because that will do everything BUT move us in the right direction.
Considering the consequences of this election, it absolutely is. Have you not been following the whole MAGA movement and the GOP these past few years? We had to fend off an autocoup in 2021, and its only gotten worse. This election is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else, unless you’re fine with never have a say again in a fascist-controlled regime.
The DNC isn’t planning on destroying the last pieces of democracy in America, though, so regardless of their reasons for funding Israel, they’re the superior choice to the RNC, which is in favor of funding Israel and dismantling US democracy.
Then there are enough that you don’t need us.
You guys spend so much of your time trying to convince peaceful people to support genocidal actions instead of supporting the warhawks changing to peace.
You are choosing to spend your time supporting genocidal actions instead of supporting rejecting them.
You tankies, specifically? Yes.
We do, however, need to minimize the cheap talking points you parrot, like Republicans chanting “RAISE THE TERROR ALERT” in 2004 like it fucking meant something, in order to avoid low-information voters being swayed into voting in favor of fascism like you lot want.
Yes, I’m the one who is being a tankie, what with my advocating for not using military force to secure what i want.
You are fucking hilarious
Thise fascists and theocrats were mever going to vote for Biden anyway, so why do you want him to court their vote instead of progressives?
They literally are voting for him. They voted for him last time. A significant subset of the Democratic party is strongly pro-Israel.
I don’t. I told you, I tell the fascists and theocrats and those leaning that way I absolutely condemn.
Then they deserve what they get!
If the majority would rather side with supporting genocidal actions, rather than peace, than America deserves to burn
Thanks for going mask off.
Yeah mask off.
To all the people supporting genocidal actions, we do no give a fuck what you think.
When you decide that you are not ok with sending more bombs to continue killing children then we can talk.
Until then I hope you all experience exactly what you want other people to.
So when members of Hamas, the current representative government of Gaza, talk about the genocide of the Jews, you say…?
Me, personally, I say that wishing democide on a population is fucking horrendous regardless of what that population supports, but I understand you tankies adore bloodshed more than I do.
I have said before and I will say again, they decided to launch attacks into civilian occupied areas without consideration.
The Israelis could have built a secure area with the help of the us military. Y’know the best of the best of logistics.
They could have built a base covered in camera and with food, water, power, and medical care.
It would have shown the whole world that they were actually only after Hamas.
Shit I was on Israel’s side in the beginning of this.
There is absolutely no justification for what hummus did, they killed and kidnapped innocent children.
They could have returned them for free at the first opportunity, instead they used them as bargains chips.
Instead neither side cares about the civilians as anything more than pawns.
So fuck them both, it’s really hard for me to care when the first sf or hummus has their people killed.
They are both pieces of shit who only care about land and power.
Also, you still don’t know what tankie means
Then by your own logic, you should be wishing on them the same thing you wished on America - for their countries to burn.
I literally defined it earlier in the thread.
And yet you keep trying to call the person advocating against military force as one.
I have very clearly said multiple times in the past that hummus are a bunch of tunnel rats whose extinction won’t bother me in the slightest, same for the IDF, maybe one day we will be able to respect Israel again, but they have managed to turn my default view of Israelis from neutral to negative.
Tell me you’re white and know you’re not gonna be the one who actually burns without telling me you’re white and know you’re not gonna be the one who actually burns.
You’re saying that you are ok with Israel slaughtering Palestinians so long as you can continue your standard of living. “Never Again” doesn’t have a secret clause saying we shouldn’t stop genocide if it means people may be harmed in the process.
You don’t want Trump to take over the US and institute his fascist policies? You should be leaning on the Democrats to actually try and stop him, rather than going after those who are trying to actually stop fascism as it pops up.
“We think any amount of genocide is unacceptable, that’s why we think it is imperative to threaten the democrats with the possibility of letting more genocide happen here too if they don’t stop supporting genocide, and shut up it’s not supporting genocide when we do it because we’re right!”
The Israeli government has said they want to remove every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank. There is literally no more genocide that is able to happen right now
Single-issue voters always seem to want to fuck shit up for even everyone election year.
And every year- you people never seem to even really grasp the nuance of the single issue you whine about.
Sorry you think genocide ia an acceptable policy for the leader of the free world to support
Sorry that you think doubling down on genocide and starting a few new ones is an acceptable policy for voters in the free world to support.
Where have i said that I support doubling down? People thinkthat their vote doesn’t matter as is. And asking someone who is already apathetic to voting to vote for someone who supports genocide isn’t going to make them want to vote any more. It’s a rigged game so they won’t play. You should be mad at Biden for not trying to engage with those voters and instead locking them up and using police violence against them.
There are two choices in this coming election, effectively. Trump or Biden.
If one loses, the other wins.
You want to guess what contributing to Biden’s loss will cause?
Go ahead. Take a few swings.
Someone who is already apathetic to voting is already not a very good target for voting outreach. You’re not really making “Have the least reliable voting bloc since we started tracking such things be the lynchpin of the strategy to defeat fascism” sound any more reasonable than it was previously.
If they think it’s a rigged game, what benefit will appealing to their desired policies have?
Oh God, not this line again. It doesn’t matter that Biden at no point has advocated the use of police violence against peaceful protesters, he’s definitely the one behind local police continuing the policy of being absolute shitheads, as they have for the past [checks notes] century and a half of US policing.
Thanks, Biden.
Yes, there are two choices. So i support people who are trying to make the less terrible one better. Meanwhile you want people to just shit up and support genocide.
Oh, is that what I want? I guess calling the Israeli genocide a genocide and advocating for the total removal of US aid from Israel is support of genocide.
Or is it because I don’t regard Trump as winning as a reasonable alternative to Biden that makes me a genocide supporter?
No one is saying trump winning is preferable. They are saying it is inevitable if Biden continues down this path.
I sure hope you’re on the DNC payroll. You’re certainly putting in more time and effort to convince people to vote for Biden than they are.
My payment is me and people I care about not being rounded up, tortured, expelled, or executed at some point during a second Trump administration. It’s very valuable to me.
I don’t give a fuck that the DNC is filled with listless, lazy, complacent, corrupt shitheads, because ‘punishing’ them for that by putting a metaphorical gun to my head and blowing my brains out just doesn’t seem like a good calculus, especially since fascist regimes always have a place for listless, lazy, complacent, corrupt shitheads anyway, so it wouldn’t be much of a punishment for the worst amongst them.