They posted graphics calling him a "biological female" before he caved. Rittenhouse backtracked his criticism not even 12 hours after the online hate from his fellow conservatives started.
Ignorance and stupidity is not a defense. It doesn’t matter if someone believes there is a child trafficking ring in the basement of a pizza place, and they are “doing the right thing” by going in there with a gun insisting on being shown the basement. It’s still a crime.
In this example, you are saying it doesn’t matter if they thought they were doing the right thing because a crime was committed anyway. I absolutely agree with you here.
However, your initial position was that Rittenhouse committed a crime because he intended to shoot someone. If your claim is now that he ignorantly broke a law, I would say “okay which one?” and also inquire as to what happened to your initial position. Is this an admission you realize that he may not have gone there with the intent to shoot someone?
“responding to my arguments means you have given up your position.”
Not really, no. He went there with the intent to shoot someone. You are correct that we do not have a mind reading machine so it cannot be 100% proven, that doesn’t make it not true. I further expanded that even if someone were to accept your argument that he didn’t that doesn’t mean he’s innocent of his actions. My point was either way he’s a murderer.
If your claim is now that he ignorantly broke a law, I would say “okay which one?”
Vigilantism. “The laws / legal system are insufficient” is not a defense of immoral, dangerous, or damaging behaviour.
You are correct that we do not have a mind reading machine so it cannot be 100% proven, that doesn’t make it not true.
I’ve made it pretty clear that Im not certain of his state of mind, by saying he only probably didn’t go with an intent to shoot people. Maybe that is even unfair, but I tend to think people are more likely to be motivated stupidity rather than motivated by malice.
You seem to be criticizing your own position here because you are the one defending your claim that you know what his state of mind was, and appear to be assuming, because I disagree with you, that I must be taking the exact opposite position and assuming that I know he had no intent to shoot people.
further expanded that even if someone were to accept your argument that he didn’t that doesn’t mean he’s innocent of his actions.
Sure, and I followed this up with some more questions as to what was the crime. It would have also gone a long way to ease the debate if you had said you were no longer talking about intent (especially because you kept repeatedly saying that intent did not matter) and had moved on to a new way to try and claim you know he was guilty.
Vigilantism. “The laws / legal system are insufficient” is not a defense of immoral, dangerous, or damaging behaviour.
Which law exactly? Why wasn’t he charged with it? If a shop owner stood there with a gun to protect their own property, is that illegal vigilantism? What if it is the shop owner and their family? Or friend? I’m curious to hear this line of reasoning, but it’s a bit vague for me to really sink my teeth into.
Something about you quoting me saying “The laws / legal system are insufficient” and responding with “Which law exactly?” Makes me question your sincerity or how much you’re listening to what I’m saying.
What Rittenhouse was doing should be clearly covered by vigilantism. If he wasn’t charged with it then the laws are insufficient.
Which law exactly?
The one that apparently doesn’t exist saying “you are not a cop and are not allowed to use deadly force to protect someone else’s property.”
if he wasn’t charged with it then the laws are insufficient.
I believe we would find common ground here. But this is one of political beliefs rather than an objective analysis of the law and whether he broke it that night in such a way that he should be found guilty of murder.
And remember this is where this all comes from, me pointing out that it’s weird to claim that it makes no sense that people would think he’s not guilty of a crime. You even seem to be relenting a bit and admitting that maybe he didn’t break a law, but saying there should be a law against it.
On that last point, I do agree. This should not be legal to do, and he’s an idiot for doing it.
You even seem to be relenting a bit and admitting that maybe he didn’t break a law, but saying there should be a law against it.
Maybe you’re having discussions with other people and confusing me with someone else. I remind you that my first reply to you was:
I can acknowledge the court case, not disagree with the decision, and still call Rittenhouse a murderer
The definition of murder does require “being found guilty of the crime of murder in the place where it happened.”
For example: historically it was legal to kill minorities. Those that did were still murderers even if it was “legal” at the time.
I don’t care that Rittenhouse was found “not guilty”, he’s still a murderer. I’m not saying the trial was wrong, I’m saying Rittenhouse was wrong and the existing laws are insufficient.
Ignorance and stupidity is not a defense. It doesn’t matter if someone believes there is a child trafficking ring in the basement of a pizza place, and they are “doing the right thing” by going in there with a gun insisting on being shown the basement. It’s still a crime.
In this example, you are saying it doesn’t matter if they thought they were doing the right thing because a crime was committed anyway. I absolutely agree with you here.
However, your initial position was that Rittenhouse committed a crime because he intended to shoot someone. If your claim is now that he ignorantly broke a law, I would say “okay which one?” and also inquire as to what happened to your initial position. Is this an admission you realize that he may not have gone there with the intent to shoot someone?
“responding to my arguments means you have given up your position.”
Not really, no. He went there with the intent to shoot someone. You are correct that we do not have a mind reading machine so it cannot be 100% proven, that doesn’t make it not true. I further expanded that even if someone were to accept your argument that he didn’t that doesn’t mean he’s innocent of his actions. My point was either way he’s a murderer.
Vigilantism. “The laws / legal system are insufficient” is not a defense of immoral, dangerous, or damaging behaviour.
I’ve made it pretty clear that Im not certain of his state of mind, by saying he only probably didn’t go with an intent to shoot people. Maybe that is even unfair, but I tend to think people are more likely to be motivated stupidity rather than motivated by malice.
You seem to be criticizing your own position here because you are the one defending your claim that you know what his state of mind was, and appear to be assuming, because I disagree with you, that I must be taking the exact opposite position and assuming that I know he had no intent to shoot people.
Sure, and I followed this up with some more questions as to what was the crime. It would have also gone a long way to ease the debate if you had said you were no longer talking about intent (especially because you kept repeatedly saying that intent did not matter) and had moved on to a new way to try and claim you know he was guilty.
Which law exactly? Why wasn’t he charged with it? If a shop owner stood there with a gun to protect their own property, is that illegal vigilantism? What if it is the shop owner and their family? Or friend? I’m curious to hear this line of reasoning, but it’s a bit vague for me to really sink my teeth into.
Something about you quoting me saying “The laws / legal system are insufficient” and responding with “Which law exactly?” Makes me question your sincerity or how much you’re listening to what I’m saying.
What Rittenhouse was doing should be clearly covered by vigilantism. If he wasn’t charged with it then the laws are insufficient.
The one that apparently doesn’t exist saying “you are not a cop and are not allowed to use deadly force to protect someone else’s property.”
I believe we would find common ground here. But this is one of political beliefs rather than an objective analysis of the law and whether he broke it that night in such a way that he should be found guilty of murder.
And remember this is where this all comes from, me pointing out that it’s weird to claim that it makes no sense that people would think he’s not guilty of a crime. You even seem to be relenting a bit and admitting that maybe he didn’t break a law, but saying there should be a law against it.
On that last point, I do agree. This should not be legal to do, and he’s an idiot for doing it.
Maybe you’re having discussions with other people and confusing me with someone else. I remind you that my first reply to you was:
The definition of murder does require “being found guilty of the crime of murder in the place where it happened.”
For example: historically it was legal to kill minorities. Those that did were still murderers even if it was “legal” at the time.
I don’t care that Rittenhouse was found “not guilty”, he’s still a murderer. I’m not saying the trial was wrong, I’m saying Rittenhouse was wrong and the existing laws are insufficient.