• MORAL_BASELINE@veganism.social
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      6 days ago

      @Neon @nume bro with the taiwan flag talking about how the majority must be right. have you ever been to china? >90% of chinese would say taiwan is an integral part of china. do you think before you fucking type? also, you’re forcing YOUR moral values onto animals, you pay for them to perpetually bred, raised, tormented, abused and slaughtered but vegans memeing online is “”“FORCING”“” moral views onto others? jesus christ you’re dense.

    • chetradley@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      If your moral values are that you shouldn’t kill sentient animals just for pleasure, we should be on the same page, right?

    • jol@discuss.tchncs.de
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      6 days ago

      Yes, minorities are literally always wrong and never in history has a minority group ever been right or caused a movement in the right direction. The end.

  • chetradley@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    I love watching a post from a vegan community get enough traction that it starts hitting people’s general feeds and carnists absolutely lose their goddamn minds in the comments🤌

    • chetradley@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      We evolved to be able to eat a wide variety of foods. It’s part of why humans have been so successful at adapting to different climates, and it’s the reason we have a choice in our diets that other animals do not. If we can choose whether or not to eat animals, and if we choose to eat them purely because we like the taste better than the vegan alternatives, then we’re placing a higher value on our own pleasure than the lives of these animals.

        • chetradley@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          It’s not a question of “all living things”. “Sentient” is the key word in this case. There are no biological mechanisms by which a bacterium or yeast cell can experience pain, fear or sadness. Animals do have this capacity and they display responses to these feelings very similarly to humans when subjected to them.

          But even if they did, we need air and water to survive, but we don’t need to eat animals. If you don’t need to eat animals to survive, you’re only killing them for pleasure.

  • megabat@lemm.ee
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    5 days ago

    Shit I probably killed a thousand sentient creatures defending my vegetable garden this spring alone.

    • chetradley@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      I’ve found companion planting works quite well for my garden, marigolds especially for keeping pests away.

    • barsquid@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      I wonder if there’s any difference at all between a lion and a human in terms of reasoning. Like does a typical human have the capability to plan outcomes and make decisions based on expectations for the long term?

    • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      Evil is a societal definition. You’re seeing the beginning of the definition change to include the suffering of animals. The only way it will take hold permanently is if humans end up more empathetic in the future. The current batch don’t have it in them.

    • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      Carnivores aren’t evil because they don’t have a choice in the matter. They are acting on instinct and do not care for ethics. Humans have a choice and moral compass, yet still create unnecessary mass death for personal gain.

      As a hypothetical, if lab-grown meat becomes viable and scalable, thus offering a 1:1 replacement for meat, wouldn’t we be evil if we were to reject it just because it didn’t come from a dead animal? If no, why not? If yes, how dissimilar does the meat replacement have to be before humans stop being evil?

      I actually eat meat fairly regularly, I’m just curious what other people think about this.

      • essell@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        Humans have a choice and moral compass, yet still create unnecessary mass death for personal gain.

        We do. And yet that is not all we are. Should one aspect of what it means to be human being valued above the others? The elevation of critical thinking faculties to being the measure of a man is a very modern post Renaissance concept, one that is slowly losing traction thankfully

            • JigglySackles@lemmy.world
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              6 days ago

              The elevation of critical thinking faculties to being the measure of a man is a very modern post Renaissance concept, one that is slowly losing traction thankfully

              You celebrate the loss of critical thinking right here in your own words.

              • essell@lemmy.world
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                6 days ago

                The elevation of them being the measure of a man is being lost, not the critical thinking skills themselves.

                You know that reading comprehension is an aspect of critical thinking right? So is the capacity to engage in the discussion without attacking the speaker?

        • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          “That is not all we are” is not an excuse for unethical behavior. Recognizing the needless death of trillions of innocent, sentient beings is not a critical thinking exercise. It is something one willingly turns a blind eye to.

      • Mango@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        I get a choice in the matter and what that means is I can be wrong where the stupids can’t. Great. Fuck you AND your free will.

    • JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee
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      7 days ago

      Who said anything about inherently evil? First, evil is a very religiously loaded term, harm or suffering is a better one. And we can absolutely morally judge a behaviour without making sweeping moral judgements about the person or being doing the behaviour.

      Edit: spelling

        • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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          7 days ago

          Point is we don’t have to, and if you acknowledge this along with the fact that our consumption contributes to animal suffering, what does that make us?

          I don’t much care for unhelpful labels like “evil,” but it sure isn’t good. It’s not even consistent.

            • Makeshift@sh.itjust.works
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              6 days ago

              but it doesn’t matter except to you, your friends, and the particular animals you didn’t eat.

              Why does the animals’ interest to not be killed not outweigh you and your friends’ desire to end their life and eat their body, instead of plants that give you equal nourishment?

              Why is the value of their very life less than the value of your whim?

            • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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              6 days ago

              Wow how it that some people are able to go against the will of their genes (and instincts!!) and forgot forego participating in the Natural Cruelty that is eating other animals! Amazing! Surely we would want to export this incredible gift to as many people as possible, right?

        • PixellatedDave@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          I don’t understand your argument. I went vegan at age 51. Before I went vegan I was a meat eater and loved meat. I can honestly say I do not crave meat now.

          I think it is just a case of developing your palette. It’s like when some children don’t like veggies but then grow to love them as part of the diet or cutting down on sugar.

          • mojo_raisin@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            Conventionally raised animals get all sorts of drugs, vitamins, etc. I’m sure.

            Cows and other ruminants wouldn’t normally need to be given B12 as it’s created by their gut microbiota and available to their bodies. If they are indeed supplemented with B12 I wonder if it’s because a corn based diet doesn’t support a microbiome that can create B12?

            • Dragofix@veganism.social
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              7 days ago

              @mojo_raisin It’s because of factory farming which is 97%+ of all production. Factory farmed animals don’t have access to a healthy soil where they would normally get their B12 and other nutrients. That means rising animals for mass consumption is totally wrong.

              Same goes with humans. People today are so separated from the healthy soil, they lack B12.

        • terwn43lp@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          i hear what you’re saying, but we’re in 2024 now and large-scale veganism is definitely practical

            • birthday_attack@lemm.ee
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              7 days ago

              I’ve been around these arguments enough times to see the discussion inevitably get to this point. We dance around the idea of “is it worth it to go vegan or not?” long enough, until eventually someone concedes that “yes it is better to do, but it’s not practical to ask everyone to do it/you can’t get everyone to go vegan/it won’t solve the problem if we go vegan and do nothing else/etc.”

              Convenient that any time an environmental initiative requires even tiny changes to our day to day lives, suddenly we need to look for the solutions vaguely “elsewhere.” I guess let’s ignore the fact that emissions from food alone are enough to push the planet over the 1.5C degree warming threshold for the planet, and that the average US consumer eats an order of magnitude more red meat than could ever be sustainable.

              If you truly think that it’s worth doing, either do it, or admit that you selfishly don’t want to. Don’t try and pretend the climate science backs up your opinions though.

              As an aside, this is basically my goodbye letter to Lemmy, so so probably not going to follow up on this thread. The platform is so small that people can’t help but creep into communities that show up in the overall feed. Say what you will about Reddit, but at least there, spaces created specifically for in-groups (like a space called “vegancirclejerk”) didn’t constantly get commenters from the wider world knocking on the door and starting flame wars in the comments. Like, can there be no space for vegans to just fuck around and post memes in peace?

              Maybe finally I’ll get some peace by logging off and touching some grass. And then eating the grass, bc I’m vegan btw

              • Applejuicy@feddit.nl
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                6 days ago

                Thank you for the comment. I heavily resonate with the last part. I don’t come to vegan communities online to be bombarded with non-vegans making the same terrible arguments, I have enough of that in real life. Leaving Lemmy seems like a more attractive option.

        • snooggums@midwest.social
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          7 days ago

          Vegetarian and vegan diets have been around for thousands of years in parts of Asia, well before B12 supplements. Cultures sorted out the nutritional requirements through ingredients, and the lack of B12 in western vegan diets has more to do with common western ingredients than some inherent problem with a plant based diet.

          I’m not even vegetarian or vegan, just annoyed with misconceptions about their feasibility.

            • snooggums@midwest.social
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              7 days ago

              Ancient and prehistoric peoples didn’t care about dogma, being “vegan”, that’s a modern thing.

              That is why I was clear about the diets being around. Diets can exist without the dogma.

          • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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            7 days ago

            Vegetarian and vegan diets have been around for thousands of years in parts of Asia, well before B12 supplements.

            Vegetarianism yes… veganism I don’t think that’s really plausible.

            I think this may come down to different cultures classifying what they consider to be meat.

            For example if you go to Korea, it’s really really simple to be a vegetarian and almost impossible to be a vegan. Most of your basic cooking spices are going to include things like dried krill powder. And if you asked the cook or waiter if there are meat or animal byproducts, they will tell you “no meat”.

            • iiGxC@slrpnk.net
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              7 days ago

              Yeah, I mean if you look at how carcinogenic red meat is to humans, it’s unlikely we ate all that much of it

              but even so, just because we’re adapted for something doesn’t mean we should continue that behavior.

              • mojo_raisin@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                just because we’re adapted for something doesn’t mean we should continue that behavior.

                So you’re saying, rather than consider how our population affects us and our world, we should go against what millions of years of evolution has come to as being appropriate for us?

                Red meat is not carcinogenic, if it is, why don’t we see carnivores dying of cancer constantly? Cancer is a growth due to mutated DNA, are you saying red meat mutates our DNA?

                • iiGxC@slrpnk.net
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                  7 days ago

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9w4klc-B4 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34455534 and more sources in the description. Red meat definitely is carcinogenic lmao.

                  And if what you take from me is that we shouldn’t consider how our population affects us and the world then either I seriously fucked up in communicating or your reading comprehension is garbage. The way our population affects us and our world is why people should be vegan in the first place. When we consider our impact seriously and without bias, going vegan is the biggest, easiest thing to do first to reduce our impact

      • snooggums@midwest.social
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        7 days ago

        Lions have nutritional requirements that can’t be met without meat or enough generations and pressures to evolve the ability to process what they need from plants.

        That is a major difference between big cats and dogs, as dogs are omnivores and could make due without meat.