• blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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    2 days ago

    The 1950s and ’60s are the middle and end of the Golden Age of science fiction

    Incorrect. As everyone knows, the Golden Age of science fiction is 12.

    Asimov’s stories were often centered around robots, space empires, or both,

    OK, this actually calls for a correction on the facts. Asimov didn’t combine his robot stories with his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire but in space” stories until the 1980s. And even by the '50s, his robot stories were very unsubtly about how thoughtless use of technology leads to social and moral decay. In The Caves of Steel, sparrows are exotic animals you have to go to the zoo to see. The Earth’s petroleum supply is completely depleted, and the subway has to be greased with a bioengineered strain of yeast. There are ration books for going to the movies. Not only are robots taking human jobs, but a conspiracy is deliberately stoking fears about robots taking human jobs in order to foment unrest. In The Naked Sun, the colony world of Solaria is a eugenicist society where one of the murder suspects happily admits that they’ve used robots to reinvent the slave-owning culture of Sparta.

    • gerikson@awful.systems
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      2 days ago

      Also the Galactic Empire as an anti-scientific hellhole with secret police surveillance.

      Witness good old Hari Seldon unveiling his plans on Trantor:

      It was not a large office, but it was quite spy-proof and quite undetectably so. Spy-beams trained upon it received neither a suspicious silence nor an even more suspicious static. They received, rather, a conversation constructed at random out of a vast stock of innocuous phrases in various tones and voices.

      [Seldon] put his fingers on a certain spot on his desk and a small section of the wall behind him slid aside. Only his own fingers could have done so, since only his particular print-pattern could have activated the scanner beneath.

      […]

      “You will find several microfilms inside,” said Seldon. “Take the one marked with the letter T.”

      Gaal did so and waited while Seldon fixed it within the projector and handed the young man a pair of eyepieces. Gaal adjusted them, and watched the film unroll before his eyes.

      • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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        1 day ago

        They traded coal interstellarly, which always made me lol. Think a lot of the people who are this hype about the older sf simply have not read them again in ages. As blakestacey says, the golden age is 12.

        • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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          14 hours ago

          The people who made the Foundation TV show faced the challenge, not just of adapting a story that repeatedly jumps forward from one generation to the next, but of adapting a series where an actual character doesn’t show up until the second book.

          • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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            3 hours ago

            I enjoyed what I have seen from the series so far tbh. Doesnt follow the books religiously l, but still a good bit of sf imho. They seem to understand scale at least.

        • istewart@awful.systems
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          23 hours ago

          What with all the rapid innovation surrounding small modular reactors, I still firmly believe that I will be able to bolt a nuclear reactor to a DeLorean in my garage

          • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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            22 hours ago

            Sadly we talked about those here, and how unlikely they are to going to work, either in the future or ever. Also, think it was a fusion reactor.

  • gerikson@awful.systems
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    2 days ago

    Some dweeb:

    I would recommend “Consider Phlebas” by Iain Banks, which is part of the Culture series of novels. Very formative for me, and I read that while I was writing Theme Park. And I still think it’s the best depiction of a post-A.G.I. future, an optimistic post-A.G.I. future, where we’re traveling the stars and humanity reached its full flourishing.

    The protagonist of Consider Phlebas is working for the Culture’s enemies, a theocratic empire that has slaves literally bred for loyalty, and the conflict they’re engaged in ultimately kills billions of sentient beings. Most of the thoughts about the Culture are his, and he basically decries them as the ultimate wokesters. No wonder HN nerds prefer The Player of Games in which a smart nerd like themselves get recruited as an agent to bring down an empire a bit like our own by being really really good at games.

    • Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems
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      Yeah that got me as well. We barely hear anything in the book about how the Culture actually functions. Fucker’s not read it and just grabbed the first name off the list.

      • istewart@awful.systems
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        24 hours ago

        Much the same mistake I (and many others) made trying to get into the series! Although I have to say that I’m still one of the philistines that gerikson brings up who’s read Phlebas and Player of Games and not much else.

        • gerikson@awful.systems
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          22 hours ago

          Everyone is entitled to their own readership of Banks. I’m not saying mine is the one and only. But the Culture is supposed to be a background character, even if Banks spends a lot of time in the later novels “explaining” it. But if the reader only focusses on the lore, they’ll miss the quite good characters and psychology that Banks was good at too.

          My personal favorite is Use of Weapons, where the focus is on the people doing the Culture’s dirty work. In one scene, Zakalwe

          spoiler

          spends an inordinate time trying to protect a useless aristocracy from being wiped out by a revolution, only to find out his side was meant to lose for some inscrutable Mind-directed reason. This kind of shit happens all the time to him, and as he’s basically a deeply traumatized individual he’s able to keep doing it.

          In Look to Windward

          spoiler

          Contact goes too far along the path of optimizing “help backwards civilization” and manages to create a genocidal civil war. The survivors decide to try to destroy a Mind (and the Orbital it’s managing), and you know, you kind of get why.

  • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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    2 days ago

    This, and similar writing I’ve seen, seems to make a fundamental mistake in treating time like only the next few, decades maybe, exist, that any objective that takes longer than that is impossible and not even worth trying, and that any problem that emerges after a longer period of time may be ignored.

    It has a valid point that anyone trying to convince you that they can bring a society of the very far future within your own lifetime, if only you do as they say or give them money, is either scamming you or fooled themselves out of desperation to see the end results without the work being put in (understandable when the work required for that society to exist will barring an unlikely miracle of technology take far longer than anyone currently alive now will live), and perhaps that some of this tendency comes from speculating about the possibilities of the future without as much thought to the practicalities of getting there.

    It also, I think, is generally correct in that trying to build a more sustainable society is of high importance.

    However, at the same time, the kind of future vision it and similar things I’ve read seem to imply they want people to imagine instead don’t really make much sense past the next few decades or maybe centuries. Sustainability is important, sure, but it should be noted that, thermodynamics being what it is, it’s also not truly possible. You cannot design a civilization that can persist beyond a certain point without outside input, so if you’re trying to think about what paths to take in the future, and value people and societies, it is eventually imperative to acquire resources from outside. This won’t bring you utopia forever, but it should bring you more and longer. It also isn’t really fair to say that things like space development cannot happen simply because they are very hard, and haven’t happened yet despite science fiction sometimes showing it as having happened in the near future. There has simply not been enough time. This kind of science fiction has existed for what? Decades? Maybe a century depending on what you count? Just developing the “easiest” (relatively speaking) parts of the solar system is a task of centuries, getting anything meaningful even barely beyond the solar system one of millenia, and actually controlling the galaxy, assuming it truly does turn out to be empty for some descendant of us to control, one of millions of years, simply on account of the scale of it. It is far too premature to say these things cannot happen just because they haven’t in decades. It also is a bit absurd to claim that they won’t happen because they simply cannot be done: it is very hard to build a society in a place as desolate as, well, anywhere off earth, and we don’t yet have the know-how to do it, but we know that a system capable of sustaining life and civilization over the timescales needed to move through space can exist, because earth is already an example of such a system. Given that it isn’t even engineered, it is highly unlikely to be the smallest or simplest possible example of such a system either. We have a society that exists drifting in space already, to replicate and expand it breaks no physical laws, else it couldn’t have happened in the first place and I wouldn’t be saying this.

    There is a certain irony to everyone involved in this argument, if it can be called that. Those who like to think about what could be achieved in the very far future tend, in my experience (I have a very strong interest in such things myself and so hang out in some spaces for such discussion) to have an extremely overoptimistic notion of the timeline, steps and work involved and so seem to think that it will all happen tomorrow, figuratively speaking, without much need to contribute to the actual process of achieving it (or else they have a very grandiose and often counterproductive notion of what that looks like). Meanwhile, those that suspect it’s all impossible dreaming that distracts from the immediate problems facing society probably make these things more likely to happen, partly because to build the society of the far future, society has to continue to exist and function from now until then, and partly because knowledge and practical experience in how to maintain a climate, keep industrial activity from destroying it, and not use up nonrenewable resources in a few decades, is also one of the exact kinds of expertise any society built beyond earth someday would need to have. The work of building the future is, for the average person, just in keeping society working long enough for incremental improvements to stack up, and that simply isn’t that exciting even if it’s the logical prerequisite for much exciting to happen.

    It’s doubly ironic that many of the people that think that if everyone just listens to them they could do it all quickly, think of themselves as thinking about the long term by doing so. Truely long term planning requires patience and flexibility beyond what any one person is probably capable of at present. At the same time, this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to imagine a much greater future than what we have, or to put in the work for it, if we can be realistic about what progress we can expect to watch happen and what that work really is.

    • self@awful.systemsM
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      2 days ago

      There is a certain irony to everyone involved in this argument, if it can be called that.

      don’t do this debatefan here crap here, thanks

      This, and similar writing I’ve seen, seems to make a fundamental mistake in treating time like only the next few, decades maybe, exist, that any objective that takes longer than that is impossible and not even worth trying, and that any problem that emerges after a longer period of time may be ignored.

      this isn’t the article you’re thinking of. this article is about Silicon Valley technofascists making promises rooted in Golden Age science fiction as a manipulation tactic. at no point does the article state that, uh, long-term objectives aren’t worth trying because they’d take a long time??? and you had to ignore a lot of the text of the article, including a brief exploration of the techno-optimists and their fascist ties (and contrasting cases where futurism specifically isn’t fascist-adjacent), to come to the wrong conclusion about what the article’s about.

      unless you think the debunked physics and unrealistic crap in Golden Age science fiction will come true if only we wish long and hard enough in which case, aw, precious, this article is about you!

      • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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        2 days ago

        That wasn’t a debate, I just find it easier to process my thoughts about something by writing about what I think of it in a semi-formal way (not because I expect people to actually read whatever I ramble on about, but because it’s easier for me to go back to it myself if it visually looks less informal). I’m not trying to actually debate anyone here, wherever “here” is (I don’t remember if I’ve seen this community on my feed before, I don’t generally pay that much attention to what specific community something is in but looking at it upon it coming up, I’m a bit confused about what this one is). I don’t have a lot of self control about replying to things and find it very hard not to get into arguments if I find something I disagree with, but I don’t actually enjoy arguing and don’t have the skills for formalized “debate” anyway.

        I’m not saying that the article directly stated these things, they’re the subtext that I got out of reading it, and mostly come from the later parts of the text or just from other stuff I’ve read that felt like it had the same sort of message (because again, I’m not trying to actually prove anything to someone with all this). I did read the earlier parts too, yes, but I guess they seemed obvious enough that they didn’t stick in my head as much as the later bits. Of course facists lie, that’s pretty much the only thing their ideology runs on, that’s less interesting to me than the bits at the end where they mentioned, for example, Kim Stanley Robinson. I know golden age sci-fi runs on magic, but I also think that things of similar scale and potential are possible within the already known physics of the real world, eventually.

        • self@awful.systemsM
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          2 days ago

          fair enough!

          but I don’t actually enjoy arguing and don’t have the skills for formalized “debate” anyway.

          it’s ok, nobody does. that’s why we ban it unless it’s amusing (which effectively bans debate for everyone unless they know their audience well enough to not fuck up) — shitty debatelords take up a lot of thread space and mental energy and give essentially nothing back.

          wherever “here” is

          SneerClub is a fairly old community if you count in its Reddit origins; part of what we do here is sneering at technofascists and other adherents to the TESCREAL belief package, though SneerClub itself tends to focus on the LessWrong Rationalists. that’s the context we tend to apply to articles like the OP.

          • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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            2 days ago

            Hmm, you probably wouldn’t/shouldn’t like me particularly much then, I’ve not heard that term before but I do very strongly consider myself a transhumanist at the very least. I suppose I won’t try to explain why that is, if it’s both a place that doesn’t like that stuff but also bans arguing. Feel free to laugh at my hubris I guess, if that’s what you mean by sneering? Though I guess I can get the part about silicon valley types, if the technology to do what I would actually want to do with myself came out but it was developed and sold by like, Elon Musk or such I’m not touching it with the world’s longest pole.

            • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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              Re being a transhumanists: Well that is why I personally dont like the term tescreal, as I do think there can be good transhumanists out there. The hot swappable furry sex organ transhumanists vs the I just want to code javascript faster transhumanists. (Meant as strawman of both, but Id prefer the first, esp as they are more likely to go the ‘it should be available to all of us or none of us’ route).

              Personally I dont think I would mind living forever (or untill Im tired of it) given everyone gets the choice we stay healthy and have free stuff for example. But that will not happen under the Muskians/Rationalists/etc. (im remembering the moment I discovered one of the H+ people was spouting anti trans lines for example, they just want to personally live forever and fuck everyone else it seems).

              E: ah they got told to leave.

            • self@awful.systemsM
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              also fair enough. you might still enjoy a scroll through our back archive of threads if you’ve got time for it — there is a historical context to transhumanism that people like Musk exploit to further their own goals, and that’s definitely something to be aware of, especially as TESCREAL elements gain overt political power. there are positive versions of transhumanism and the article calls one of them out — the Culture is effectively a model for socialist transhumanism — but one must be familiar with the historical baggage of the philosophy or risk giving cover to people currently looking to cause harm under transhumanism’s name.

              • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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                2 days ago

                I dont have a whole lot of time tonight as it happens, though I’ll look through them for a little to see if I find what youre talking about. Im not sure if you know of the youtube channel “philosphy tube” or not, or if they’re liked or disliked here if so, but they did a fairly critical video about the topic once that I seem to remember touching on some nasty characters involved in the beginning of it, if that kind of thing is what you mean. I do understand that there is a lot of potential harm you can do with the idea, both if implemented in a bad manner or by someone interested in abusing the power it implies, or in the nearer term using the hypothetical promise of the idea as a ruse to gain support for like, eugenics or such, but I think that there is enough potential good if done well that attempting to do it well is worth a (probably careful) try.

                • self@awful.systemsM
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                  2 days ago

                  no problem! I don’t mean to give you homework, just threads to read that might be of interest.

                  yeah, a few of us are Philosophy Tube fans, and I remember they’ve done a couple of good videos about parts of TESCREAL — their Effective Altruism and AI videos specifically come to mind.

                  if you’re familiar with Behind the Bastards, they’ve done a few videos I can recommend dissecting TESCREAL topics too:

                  • their episodes about the Zizians are definitely worth a listen; they explore and critique the group as a cult offshoot of LessWrong Rationalism.
                  • they did a couple of older videos on AI cults and their origins that are very good too.