We’re not talking about “any risk at all to Israelis”, we’re talking about the threat of complete annihilation, the very same genocidal aspirations you see on Netanyahu’s side. Obviously, that’ doesn’t excuse the way Netanyahu is waging this war. But that’s what keeps the fundamental support from countries such as Germany going. And that’s what’s needs to be fixed before “the West” will actually expose Israel to pressure threatening their security. As long as people still want to wipe Israel from the map, the support will remain intact. Realistically, that’s something one can’t get past, regardless of where one stands in this conflict.
Okay even if we take that extremely bad faith argument at face value, there are countless ways to protect Israeli Jews from the genocide you’re talking about (which no major Palestinian group actually wants, to be clear) other than unconditional support, so if the West actually cared they’d stop supporting Israel and find a way to prevent the potential genocide of Jews they’d figure something out and not support the ongoing real genocide of Palestinians.
I’m not trying to give a bad faith argument here. I also don’t want to apologise the way Netanyahu is waging his war, just to be clear. I just want to point out why it is that a country such as Germany realistically is supporting Israel. This support was born from a historical responsibility but also from a dire necessity given the amount of aggression Israel was facing from its surroundings from the start on.
Had Israel not received this support from “the West” and given the sheer amounts of adversaries it faced and faces, it simply wouldn’t exist anymore, I hope we can agree on that. So that’s one of the fundamental problems in this region that needs fixing should this conflict ever come to an end.
to protect Israeli Jews from the genocide you’re talking about (which no major Palestinian group actually wants, to be clear)
Hamas’ goal still is the annihilation of Israel and - as shown in October '23 - its population. Iran, having the same goal, is also actively supporting groups in the region to destroy Israel. Hate Netanyahu or illegal Israeli settlers all you want, but this needs to be fixed. Given that this threat to Israel wouldn’t perish if Israel were to become weaker under external pressure but instead would probably grow and “seize its opportunity”, realistically there is very little chance for countries such as Germany to end their support, even if they oppose the way and purpose of Netanyahus war that left the scope of rightful self-defense quite a while ago. I don’t think its bad faith to try to understand the motivation behind actions, even if I criticise them.
but also from a dire necessity given the amount of aggression Israel was facing from its surroundings from the start on.
Have you asked yourself why Israel has and had so many adversaries? Hint: Fucking ethnic cleansing.
Had Israel not received this support from “the West” and given the sheer amounts of adversaries it faced and faces, it simply wouldn’t exist anymore
Yeah why is that a bad thing?
Hamas’ goal still is the annihilation of Israel and - as shown in October '23 - its population.
33% of people killed on October 7th were military targets, and that’s with Israeli friendly fire (which we know happened because they, among other things, bombed houses full of Israeli civilians to prevent them from becoming hostages) so that argument doesn’t hold up. Compare with what happens when the IDF rolls into town. That aside find me a quote from Iran or Hamas from this decade actually calling for the genocide of Jews, because I can find plenty from Israeli officials.
And again, there are a multitude of different ways to protect Jews from the genocide you say will happen other than fully supporting the genocide of Palestinians. This is a false dichotomy.
Just to be clear: you’re seriously asking why it is a bad thing of a country is annihilated by its neighbours?
33% of people killed on October 7th were military targets
Your point being? That it’s tough luck for the remaining allegedly 66% civilian “targets”? Wouldn’t you agree that Hamas showed a very high level of brutality, also against civilians - think Nova Festival Massacre?
calling for the genocide of Jews
We were talking about the annihilation of Israel here, something both parties still desire.
Just to be clear: you’re seriously asking why it is a bad thing of a country is annihilated by its neighbours?
So… Uh… Countries aren’t annihilated. They’re dismantled, dissolved, overthrown, but not annihilated. People can be annihilated, which is obviously not what I’m talking about. [Edit: Censored by the mods (see the Israel section of rule 4)].
Your point being? That it’s tough luck for the remaining allegedly 66% civilian “targets”?
No, my point is that Hamas went in with other goals that likely didn’t include simply killing civilians.
Wouldn’t you agree that Hamas showed a very high level of brutality, also against civilians - think Nova Festival Massacre?
Oh yeah absolutely, but note that the Nova massacre was heavily publicized specifically because it was notable. The kibbutz fared much better, which makes it unlikely that Hamas went in specifically to kill Jews. I mean there’s a reason Israel kept making up shit in the months after October 7th; they wanted the attack to look more brutal than it actually was. Now the attack was brutal, but for example the UN found no evidence for systematic sexual violence by Hamas, and no beheaded babies either.
What I want to say here is: Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian resistance can be reasoned with to avoid the possibilities you’re imagining, especially since the IDF is still one of the most advanced militaries in the world. It’s not like they’d be sitting ducks without Western support.
People can be annihilated, which is obviously not what I’m talking about.
But this is what would be (and has historically been) at stake. Such a war would be (and was) not only about dismantling an administrative entity such as the state Israel but inevitably would also include the killing of the inhabitants of this state. That happened when the military coalition of Arab states invaded Israel in '48 and it btw also happened when Israel occupied Gaza. Muslim religious leaders declaring the war against Israel per fatwa as djihad didn’t help either. The core problem is that too many people (on both sides!) think they are in the right of denying the opposing site existence. This will never lead anywhere. Although superior in numbers, the Arab states will never achieve a Middle East without Israel due to the Western support that precisely due to this scenario will never cease to ensure Israel’s safety. At the same time, power-hungry corrupt politicians such as Netanyahu that need war to stay in office and out of prison teaming up with fundamentalist Israelis dreaming of a Middle East without Palestine will never succeed. The knot must be cut - starting with, on both sides, isolating those that think there is a possibility where only one side will prevail while the other gets destroyed. This won’t ever happen.
the IDF is still one of the most advanced militaries in the world. It’s not like they’d be sitting ducks without Western support.
Almost all large equipment is in one way or the other attributed to the US or another larger Western power. Israel is an isolated, small land surrounded by parties that more or less openly seek to destroy it. It is regionally only respected for its military power, nothing else. As developed as it is, it has almost no resources and is highly dependend on access to markets and the help of others.
But this is what would be (and has historically been) at stake.
No it’s not? I can recall off the top of my head multiple examples where military conquest or regime change happened without mass civilian casualties.
That happened when the military coalition of Arab states invaded Israel in '48
No it’s not; that’s pseudohistory. Jewish civilians for the most part weren’t expelled or attacked with the Arab advance. Israel likes to claim that they’re at threat of extermination, but the Arab armies’ conduct during the war of 1948 proves that that’s nothing more than projection, a tool regularly used by fascists. As they say, every accusation is a confession.
Morris also said that despite their rhetoric, Arab armies committed few atrocities and no large-scale massacre of prisoners took place when circumstances might have allowed them to happen, as when they took the Old City of Jerusalem or the villages of Atarot, Neve Yaakov, Nitzanim, Gezer and Mishmar Hayarden.[6] On 28 May, when the inhabitants and fighters of the Old City surrendered, in fear for their lives, the Transjordanian Arab Legion protected them from the mob and even wounded or shot dead other Arabs.
So Palestinians can be subjected to genocide but any risk at all to Israelis is completely unacceptable. I see, that makes complete sense.
We’re not talking about “any risk at all to Israelis”, we’re talking about the threat of complete annihilation, the very same genocidal aspirations you see on Netanyahu’s side. Obviously, that’ doesn’t excuse the way Netanyahu is waging this war. But that’s what keeps the fundamental support from countries such as Germany going. And that’s what’s needs to be fixed before “the West” will actually expose Israel to pressure threatening their security. As long as people still want to wipe Israel from the map, the support will remain intact. Realistically, that’s something one can’t get past, regardless of where one stands in this conflict.
Okay even if we take that extremely bad faith argument at face value, there are countless ways to protect Israeli Jews from the genocide you’re talking about (which no major Palestinian group actually wants, to be clear) other than unconditional support, so if the West actually cared they’d stop supporting Israel and find a way to prevent the potential genocide of Jews they’d figure something out and not support the ongoing real genocide of Palestinians.
I’m not trying to give a bad faith argument here. I also don’t want to apologise the way Netanyahu is waging his war, just to be clear. I just want to point out why it is that a country such as Germany realistically is supporting Israel. This support was born from a historical responsibility but also from a dire necessity given the amount of aggression Israel was facing from its surroundings from the start on.
Had Israel not received this support from “the West” and given the sheer amounts of adversaries it faced and faces, it simply wouldn’t exist anymore, I hope we can agree on that. So that’s one of the fundamental problems in this region that needs fixing should this conflict ever come to an end.
Hamas’ goal still is the annihilation of Israel and - as shown in October '23 - its population. Iran, having the same goal, is also actively supporting groups in the region to destroy Israel. Hate Netanyahu or illegal Israeli settlers all you want, but this needs to be fixed. Given that this threat to Israel wouldn’t perish if Israel were to become weaker under external pressure but instead would probably grow and “seize its opportunity”, realistically there is very little chance for countries such as Germany to end their support, even if they oppose the way and purpose of Netanyahus war that left the scope of rightful self-defense quite a while ago. I don’t think its bad faith to try to understand the motivation behind actions, even if I criticise them.
Have you asked yourself why Israel has and had so many adversaries? Hint: Fucking ethnic cleansing.
Yeah why is that a bad thing?
33% of people killed on October 7th were military targets, and that’s with Israeli friendly fire (which we know happened because they, among other things, bombed houses full of Israeli civilians to prevent them from becoming hostages) so that argument doesn’t hold up. Compare with what happens when the IDF rolls into town. That aside find me a quote from Iran or Hamas from this decade actually calling for the genocide of Jews, because I can find plenty from Israeli officials.
And again, there are a multitude of different ways to protect Jews from the genocide you say will happen other than fully supporting the genocide of Palestinians. This is a false dichotomy.
Just to be clear: you’re seriously asking why it is a bad thing of a country is annihilated by its neighbours?
Your point being? That it’s tough luck for the remaining allegedly 66% civilian “targets”? Wouldn’t you agree that Hamas showed a very high level of brutality, also against civilians - think Nova Festival Massacre?
We were talking about the annihilation of Israel here, something both parties still desire.
So… Uh… Countries aren’t annihilated. They’re dismantled, dissolved, overthrown, but not annihilated. People can be annihilated, which is obviously not what I’m talking about. [Edit: Censored by the mods (see the Israel section of rule 4)].
No, my point is that Hamas went in with other goals that likely didn’t include simply killing civilians.
Oh yeah absolutely, but note that the Nova massacre was heavily publicized specifically because it was notable. The kibbutz fared much better, which makes it unlikely that Hamas went in specifically to kill Jews. I mean there’s a reason Israel kept making up shit in the months after October 7th; they wanted the attack to look more brutal than it actually was. Now the attack was brutal, but for example the UN found no evidence for systematic sexual violence by Hamas, and no beheaded babies either.
What I want to say here is: Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian resistance can be reasoned with to avoid the possibilities you’re imagining, especially since the IDF is still one of the most advanced militaries in the world. It’s not like they’d be sitting ducks without Western support.
But this is what would be (and has historically been) at stake. Such a war would be (and was) not only about dismantling an administrative entity such as the state Israel but inevitably would also include the killing of the inhabitants of this state. That happened when the military coalition of Arab states invaded Israel in '48 and it btw also happened when Israel occupied Gaza. Muslim religious leaders declaring the war against Israel per fatwa as djihad didn’t help either. The core problem is that too many people (on both sides!) think they are in the right of denying the opposing site existence. This will never lead anywhere. Although superior in numbers, the Arab states will never achieve a Middle East without Israel due to the Western support that precisely due to this scenario will never cease to ensure Israel’s safety. At the same time, power-hungry corrupt politicians such as Netanyahu that need war to stay in office and out of prison teaming up with fundamentalist Israelis dreaming of a Middle East without Palestine will never succeed. The knot must be cut - starting with, on both sides, isolating those that think there is a possibility where only one side will prevail while the other gets destroyed. This won’t ever happen.
Almost all large equipment is in one way or the other attributed to the US or another larger Western power. Israel is an isolated, small land surrounded by parties that more or less openly seek to destroy it. It is regionally only respected for its military power, nothing else. As developed as it is, it has almost no resources and is highly dependend on access to markets and the help of others.
Dude, formatting.
No it’s not? I can recall off the top of my head multiple examples where military conquest or regime change happened without mass civilian casualties.
No it’s not; that’s pseudohistory. Jewish civilians for the most part weren’t expelled or attacked with the Arab advance. Israel likes to claim that they’re at threat of extermination, but the Arab armies’ conduct during the war of 1948 proves that that’s nothing more than projection, a tool regularly used by fascists. As they say, every accusation is a confession.
-Wikipedia
I don’t think you understand what jihad is.